London Midland Overtime Ban

[DarloRich]

Hello,

I wonder if anyone could set out what the situation with regard to the current London Midland/ASLEF overtime ban.

Why do LM roster overtime for planned services? The claim on their website (which tells you less than nothing as to why there is a dispute, a situation which suggests they are in the wrong!) that:

The number of drivers who are not available due to holidays, training and sickness varies throughout the year, and between depots.

Now to me you should know in advance what your staff holiday and training requirements are. The roster should cover those accordingly. The only issue, therefore, is staff sickness. On average how many drivers at a depot are off sick at any one time? 1,2,10,20? Surely the company can take a view over a year and work out average sick days per driver and roster a spare driver at strategic locations. Say one spare driver at Euston, Birmingham and Crewe (I pick the biggest stations there may be more/better strategic locations)

I simply do not understand why overtime is required to run a scheduled train service. Do LM not have enough drivers to cover their timetable? If not, why not?

They don’t appear to care a great deal about their passengers. Nothing seems to being done to solve this dispute and the company seems quite happy to cancel services on smaller routes with little regard to their passengers inconvenience. Could it be because most passengers on these routes have paid upfront for their tickets via season tickets so they already have the money in the bank? Surely not!

Their website asks a question Why don't we just employ more drivers? and then goes on NOT to answer this point! So, why not employ more drivers?

I am just confused and frustrated by the seeming lack of care or interest shown by London Midland in their passengers. They are happy to take vast sums from us in season tickets but are not happy to run their train service. No doubt they expect NR to "honour the timetable" and would complain if they blocked the line by over running engineering works yet seemingly can’t be bothered to honour their own timetable promise!

Get round the table and sort it out. Management give up a tiny fraction of your no doubt vast bonus and unions accept a little bit less pay or conditions. It is us as passengers who suffer!

 

[northwichcat]

The same thing happened with First North Western in the past. The drivers refused to work overtime and most lines got some services removed from timetables until new drivers were recruited and fully trained.

I don't think TOCs in general operate well in terms of scheduled hours/overtime. I understand that overtime may be required when there are no extra scheduled services or no significant delays due to the fact that employees get ill, go on holiday and in the case of the railways crews can be left out of position. However, train drivers are better paid than in other fields so they may prefer to not volunteer to do overtime as they don't need the extra money and would rather spend their own time with friends/family etc.

 

[DarloRich]

but surely they know who is on holiday and who is on training sometime in advance. Do they not have enougth staff to cover the roster unless someone works extra?

I can understand unplanned overtime at times of disruption/sickness outbreak/ general staff shortage but on a daily basis - that doesnt seem right!

 

[westcoaster]

Holidays are planned in advance , and there is a daily limit as to how many people are allowed annual leave at any one time.

 

[SS4]

The text they use on their website is very confrontational too! Regardless of whether they are right or wrong it won't help soothe matters.

London Midland and its passengers continue to be held to ransom by excessive Union demands

It probably is a work to rule but it just goes to show that you can't rely on volunteers in lieu of contracted staff. Holidays and training are done well in advance and sickness should be relatively rare. I get the impression that neither the union nor LM will back down and of course the passengers are stuck in the middle while this will go on for weeks and possibly months and with the current government I can't see the union doing well

 

[BestWestern]

It seems to be the case that there is always an element of reliance on overtime, to some degree or other. Obviously this is a lot worse in those situations where a company have, for whatever reason, landed themselves with staff shortages etc, but even under normal circumstances there is usually some overtime working required. From the point of view of the operators, overtime tends to be 'officially' frowned upon, but equally I suppose having some overtime working reduces the staffing level requirements, which obviously saves on things like pension contributions and other employee expenses. The downside, of course, is what happens when there is a despute and an overtime working ban!

 

[pendolino]

My understanding of the LM dispute (and I'm more than happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable, as I don't work for them) is as follows:

When London Midland was 'born' it took over franchises previously operated by Silverlink and Central Trains. The drivers LM inherited are on different pay/terms & conditions depending on which of those former TOCs they were previously employed by. ASLEF have been asking LM to standardise Pay/T&Cs, but so far no agreement has been reached. Until an agreement is reached, ASLEF have instructed their members not to work overtime - this is not strike action, is perfectly legal (as ASLEF members are basically working in strict accordance with their contracts) and does not require any sort of ballot.

Sunday working on the railway can be either:

1. Voluntary - all drivers working on Sundays do so out of goodwill, for overtime. If nobody volunteers, no trains run.
2. Committed - drivers are required to work Sundays as part of their contract, but Sundays are outside the working week, and are therefore paid as overtime (but on the minus side for the driver, it is not possible to take a day's leave on a Sunday - the only way to get out of working a Sunday is to get someone else to work it for you, to be arranged between the drivers themselves). Southern have this arrangement with their drivers.
3. Contracted - Sundays are part of the working week, the salary includes Sunday working; annual leave can be taken on a Sunday (subject to cover). LOROL operate on this basis.

As far as I know, Sunday working on LM is voluntary and relies on the goodwill of drivers to run the service. If this goodwill is withdrawn, then the result is a service like that I encountered last Sunday - 1 tph Euston - Milton Keynes, 1 tph Lichfield to Redditch, Stourbridge Jct to Stourbridge Town shuttles.

Quite happy to be corrected on this if I'm wrong.

 

[DarloRich]

My understanding of the LM dispute (and I'm more than happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable, as I don't work for them) is as follows:

When London Midland was 'born' it took over franchises previously operated by Silverlink and Central Trains. The drivers LM inherited are on different pay/terms & conditions depending on which of those former TOCs they were previously employed by. ASLEF have been asking LM to standardise Pay/T&Cs, but so far no agreement has been reached. Until an agreement is reached, ASLEF have instructed their members not to work overtime - this is not strike action, is perfectly legal (as ASLEF members are basically working in strict accordance with their contracts) and does not require any sort of ballot.

Sunday working on the railway can be either:

1. Voluntary - all drivers working on Sundays do so out of goodwill, for overtime.
2. Committed - drivers are required to work Sundays as part of their contract, but Sundays are outside the working week, and are therefore paid as overtime (but on the minus side for the driver, it is not possible to take a day's leave on a Sunday - the only way to get out of working a Sunday is to get someone else to work it for you, to e arranged between the drivers themselves). Southern have this arrangement with their drivers.
3. Contracted - Sundays are part of the working week, the salary includes Sunday working; annual leave can be taken on a Sunday (subject to cover). LOROL operate on this basis.

As far as I know, Sunday working on LM is voluntary and relies on the goodwill of drivers to run the service. If this goodwill is withdrawn, then the result is a service like that I encountered last Sunday - 1 tph Euston - Milton Keynes, 1 tph Lichfield to Redditch, Stourbridge Jct to Stourbridge Town shuttles.

Quite happy to be corrected on this if I'm wrong.

That is how i understand it. I have been told by LM people that Sunday working is "by agreement and not contracted"

But that doesnt explain how and why they need agreed overtime working during the "contracted" week. I just cant understand it. I must live in a different world!

 

[pendolino]

That is how i understand it. I have been told by LM people that Sunday working is "by agreement and not contracted"

But that doesnt explain how and why they need agreed overtime working during the "contracted" week. I just cant understand it. I must live in a different world!

Most TOCs use Rest Day Working to be honest - drivers coming in on their days off to work for overtime. It's a bit of a throwback from when drivers' pay was so poor that the only way to earn a decent living was to work overtime.

As Bestwestern says, it probably works out cheaper for the company that way. But if ASLEF no longer sanction RDW then it makes running a full service difficult.

 

[YorkshireRider]

This is surely going to cost LM a fair wack in fines for cancelled services, unless there is some loophole which allows them to get out of paying the fines because they can start crying its not there fault and out of there control. However that seems unlikley given as said above this is not a strike and is all perfectly legal. Does anyone know how much the SRA fine TOCS for cancelled services?

 

[DarloRich]

This is surely going to cost LM a fair wack in fines for cancelled services, unless there is some loophole which allows them to get out of paying the fines because they can start crying its not there fault and out of there control. However that seems unlikley given as said above this is not a strike and is all perfectly legal. Does anyone know how much the SRA fine TOCS for cancelled services?

It is most often the branch routes they cut. Then they put on buses so they actually run the service thus avoiding fines and delay repay

 

[mumrar]

Your understanding of the merging of Silverlink and some Central Trains crew is correct. There are different pay structures and conditions that were carried over from the previouse franchisee.

LM are not blameless as they seem to have a suicidal desire to come to loggerheads with staff of all grades for many flimsy reasons. Many will recall the fiasco of the VHF introduction.

This fiasco came about because for 13 months LM had been able to use XC crews who had worked for Central Trains on a cross-cover agreement. During those 13 months LM made no efforts to recruit/train anyone to replace this cross-cover and to be ready for VHF. That nearly cost them the franchise.

I work at XC with a mix of former Virgin and former Central Trains traincrew, and our conditions are wildly different, far more so than Silverlink and Central Trains were. You don't see XC services constantly beseiged with delays and cancellations due to overtime bans and the like. It is all about how you treat your workforce, and I'm afraid LM seem to be appalling in this area.

 

[lm321412]

The recent level of cancellations has prompted me to think its December/January 2009 all over again. LMs punctuality went extremely low then, and it seems to be getting worse again...

This does indeed remind me of First North Western and I think Arriva Trains Northern? It is poor man-management and shows a lack of commitment towards the franchise. I love how the website claims "Them" and "The Passengers" are being "Held to Ransom". Makes me laugh how they try to appear so blameless...

 

[j0hn0]

My girlfriends dad is one of the drivers.
They basically won't work rest days unless they are paid the overtime rate, which seems fair enough to me

 

[London_Midland]

Hello all,

Just a few points of clarification which I hope may help.

The page http://www.londonmidland.com/cancellations gives an overview of which trains are being cancelled each day. It also explains why we don't simply employ extra drivers, although I'll expand a little here.

All public transport operators use drivers working rest days. This gives some flexibility to undertake extra training and allow for peaks and troughs in holidays and short/long term sickness, especially bearing in mind the shift work nature of driving. The amount of holiday taken throughout the year is not constant, which is why we cancelled no trains at all for the first couple of weeks in February.

Our drivers work a 35 hour, 4 day week which means that many of them work extra days each week. The crucial difference between LM and many other companies is that we still had a Rest Day Working agreement with the Trade Union. In most companies, there is no agreement, as it is up to drivers to choose whether they work extra days.

We have told the drivers they can volunteer to work as usual, but the Union has told them not to, which has led to very few putting their names forward.

This comes on the back of the breakdown of talks about the harmonisation of pay and conditions between ex Central and ex Silverlink drivers which resulted in a ballot for strike action. In simple terms, we agree that it is simpler and fairer for all our drivers to have the same terms and conditions, but at the moment ex CT drivers earn more, as they get fewer holidays than ex Silverlink drivers as part of historical salary negotiations. The Union believes all drivers should earn the higher rate, and get the extra holiday, which effectively means a significant pay rise rather than harmonisation.

We then have the Sunday issue. As we stated in our press release, drivers earn around £40k for a 35hr, 4 day week, but on top of that earn double time for Sundays (which equates to another £400 a day). This was always a temporary enhancement whilst harmonisation talks continued, but cannot be sustained long term. We believe that 1.5 x the basic rate is a fair level to pay (which is 50% more than their contracts state), and have explained that we will reduce overtime rates to that level over the coming 5 months (1.9, then 1,8 etc) to help people budget spending accordingly.

Sundays are rostered, but the inherited terms and conditions state that drivers can 'deselect' themselves if they don't want to work. However, we normally get c.200 drivers asking to work Sundays for c.170 shifts, so the system works. However, last Sunday the volunteers were in single figures leading to us running just 25% of our normal service, using Driver Managers as back up. We wholly expect a reduction in volunteers if we're offering slightly less money, but only organised action can lead to a complete refusal to work.

Whilst it sounds simple enough to say we don't have enough drivers, there is has been a large appetite for overtime since the franchise began - which cannot be linked to a 'poor level of basic pay' - so it would be self defeating to have extra drivers who would only serve to suppress earnings amongst those who want to work. We simply want drivers to be able to choose when they work, just as happens elsewhere in the UK. Hopefully, this situation will be the result of the current disagreement, as the Union's action is currently not just affecting passengers, but the pay packets of many of the drivers themselves.

Regarding earlier comments about the early days of LM's handling of staff, all I can say is that there have been a lot of changes since then, and in 2010 we not only ran sustained 90% punctuality, but saw one of the highest jumps ever recorded in passenger satisfaction. Hopefully what we're seeing at the moment is a blip!

 

[87015]

Get round the table and sort it out. Management give up a tiny fraction of your no doubt vast bonus and unions accept a little bit less pay or conditions. It is us as passengers who suffer!

Don't know about LM, but on most TOCs management bonus schemes for the majority of lower/middle management are pretty poor. Few quid in love to shop vouchers isn't what I'd call vast, but you may do I guess.

Oh, and the drivers have got 7% or RPI, whichever is greater over 2 years, whilst 'da management' got 1% at a large ex-NSE TOC...

Mr LM, can you please tell what long term effects the imminent closure of Northampton drivers depot will have on early morning train provision please? The first two down trains out of Euston (night shifts...) don't seem to run most days now, not very helpful for getting anywhere that.

Bring back NX, all is forgiven... And thats saying something.

 

[dcmbarton]

At a very basic level, whatever the background situation, it is the passengers which suffer in the end. The current situation is intolerable - day after day there are cancellations, and many days these affect nearly all routes one way or another. Whilst LM assure us that they are cancelling very few services in terms of their overall provision, I think this misses the point - if you have an hourly service and one train is cut, that's an extra hour to wait; it's not the same as cutting services which are already running at 2, 3 or even 4tph. I don’t mean to sound uncharitable, but in the end, I don’t really care about the ‘whys and wherefores’ of the dispute – I honestly think that passengers just don’t care.

Speaking as someone who is almost wholly reliant on the trains for getting about, it makes life incredibly difficult. If trains are cancelled, then more often than not, there isn’t an alternative route and one is forced to wait for a later one (which as I said, is a long time if trains are only 1ph anyway). When I enquired about the future, LM assured me that they were hoping to resolve the issue and that services wouldn’t be cut or reduced when the new timetable comes out in May. What’s clear is that the current situation is losing LM a lot of goodwill amongst passengers and I know people where that goodwill has simply run dry.

Where services are cut or reduced, this just doesn’t seem to be thought through. There have been occasions recently on Cross-City services where the 2tph Lichfield TV to Longbridge has been cut, but the 2tph Lichfield City to Redditch has been retained. Now surely, it would make more sense to retain one of each – on that basis, no one loses out. Lichfield TV has been dead on occasions the past few weeks – Cross-City services cancelled because of the dispute, but also because of at least two days of signalling problems and at least one trespass incident; equally, the Crewe to Euston WCML service has also suffered cancellations; today’s problems out of Euston simply add to the problems.

While LM keep apologising and saying they are keeping delays to a minimum, for passengers, this doesn’t make any difference. I’m past the stage of wanting apologies – I just want a decent service where when you turn up at a station, 99% of the time, the right train is there, it’s going to call at the right stops, and it’ll run on time.

 

[Pumbaa]

Mr LM, can you please tell what long term effects the imminent closure of Northampton drivers depot will have on early morning train provision please? The first two down trains out of Euston (night shifts...) don't seem to run most days now, not very helpful for getting anywhere that.

Bring back NX, all is forgiven... And thats saying something.

I'll second the former point, and the latter also. It seems to me like it'll be a struggle to get anything out before 7am working properly. Sign on at Bletchley, taxi or travel pass (oh wait, on what trains?) back to Northampton to then go back through Bletchley to pick up the workings. It's just not going to work is it!!

And plus, Coventry and New Street crews aren't going to get south of Northampton, so err, there's no backup is there?

What a farce - so very glad I don't have to rely on LM for a daily commute anymore!

And picking up on the 'most improved' operator accolade, not very impressive really is it. Average scores now are equal to those of other operators, its only 'most improved' because LM were so bollocks in the first place.

 

[bengolding]

'London Midland' - I briefly discussed the ongoing cancellations with a guard and RPI on board your service earlier, on a route which sees cancellations practically every day. From what I heard, staff morale within the company is at an all time low and there is a culture of 'us against them (the management)'. I was also told, not jokingly, that if/when the driver dispute is resolved, it will be the turn of the guards next. Thank god I don't work for such a ridiculous company!

At least there is the consolation of Delay Repay still applying when cancelled services are replaced by coaches. But only 'those in the know' bother to apply as the ordinary rail passenger inconvenienced in all this isn't even made aware that they can apply for compensation by on train crew or prior to boarding replacement coaches.

 

[BrummyBoy]

What i dont get is why dont LM rota drivers contracts over 7 days considering its a 7 day operation

 

[12CSVT]

London Midland management failed to recruit enough drivers to run the full timetabled service.

When 'not enough' drivers volunteer to work excessive hours as a result of low morale among the workforce, services get cancelled, and LM management have the audacity to blame it all on ASLEF and the traincrews, sending morale plummeting even further.

This is no different from the disgraceful tactics used by First Capital Connect management during the drivers' dispute last year.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

London Midland management failed to recruit enough drivers to run the full timetabled service.

When 'not enough' drivers volunteer to work excessive hours as a result of low morale among the workforce, services get cancelled, and LM management have the audacity to blame it all on ASLEF and the traincrews, sending morale plummeting even further.

This is no different from the disgraceful tactics used by First Capital Connect management during the drivers' dispute last year.

Its the TOC's favourite tactic against Drivers and Guards, when at the end of it all its the inept management from high level who couldn't give a rats a88e about staff morale as long as they don't look bad

 

[Jonny]

Am I noticing something - like a lot of strikes happen to occur at bus company-owned train companies? Or is that just because bus companies run most TOCs?

Is it some trick to ^persuade^ people to use bus services instead? or an anti-union plot (London Midland is 65% owned by Go-Ahead group, which had a massive dispute with a union early on in its history)? I happen to live in the area where they are the local bus company and let's just say that none of this is a surprise.

 

[notadriver]

What i dont get is why dont LM rota drivers contracts over 7 days considering its a 7 day operation

Why don't you get it?

 

[DarloRich]

London Midland - your website DOESNT answer the question: Why you dont recruit more drivers? It says:

Why don't we just employ more drivers?
The number of drivers who are not available due to holidays, training and sickness varies throughout the year, and between depots. Allowing drivers to volunteer for overtime days is therefore the most effective way of covering the peaks and troughs at each depot, rather than employing extra drivers. This has worked well for many years and gives drivers the choice to earn extra money.


it seems to me that the question still stands! Why not employ more drivers?

PS - will you offer ticket holders a refund on thier tickets IF the train they want doesnt run? I am sorry to raise questions in this forum but your "Customer Care" team dont seem to want to respond

 

[dcmbarton]

will you offer ticket holders a refund on thier tickets IF the train they want doesnt run? I am sorry to raise questions in this forum but your "Customer Care" team dont seem to want to respond

I also asked the same question a while back and was told that if the train I want doesn't run, then the ticket can be used on the next service. This isn't actually much good if you need to be somewhere at a particular time and your train doesn't run. In most cases, catching the next train is no use, particularly if, as I said earlier, it's only 1tph anyway.

 

[DarloRich]

I also asked the same question a while back and was told that if the train I want doesn't run, then the ticket can be used on the next service. This isn't actually much good if you need to be somewhere at a particular time and your train doesn't run. In most cases, catching the next train is no use, particularly if, as I said earlier, it's only 1tph anyway.

OR if there are no trains!

 

[dcmbarton]

OR if there are no trains!

Exactly. As a passenger, I'm fed up of reading the same old things:

Please accept our apologies if we've disrupted your plans
We’re very sorry for any disruption that you experience and will continue to seek the earliest possible resolution.
London Midland is advising passengers not to travel unless absolutely necessary.
We apologise to our passengers for the continued impact of the ongoing dispute

Today, there is a lineside fire effecting Cross-City services - OK, it's not LM's fault, but I'd be more understanding of these circumstances, if the line hadn't been disrupted by signalling problems, train faults, trespass incidents and rowdy passengers on every other day this week! Just noticed that there's now signalling problems at Longbridge!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Can LM explain why last Sunday when near nothing was going to run did the London Midland website have the cynical "no problems reported" on their website in their live info section!!!!
They should of said WE HAVE FAILED TO PROVIDE A SERVICE TODAY!!!!!!
This Sunday is to be the same!!!

 

[BrummyBoy]

Why don't you get it?

Well why does LM only rosta drivers (excluding overtime) to work monday - saturday only, considering the railways run 7 days a week.