London Midland/Northern EMU changes speculation

[Bletchleyite]

Well as LM wont be ordering the stock (DaFT will) that statement doesnt mean anything!

LM, with DaFT agreement, ordered the 350s and 172s I believe. (The latter converted Snow Hill local services except the 2 remaining 150s to 2+2 seating from 3+2, notably).

Neil

 

[Class 170101]

I don't know if the Desiro is narrower, or what, but 3+2 doesn't work on the 350s where it is actually OK on the 321s.

Think the 350s are slightly narrower as doors move out of the bodyside so are part of the loading guage but stand to be corrected.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Think the 350s are slightly narrower as doors move out of the bodyside so are part of the loading guage but stand to be corrected.

???

The doors on both classes are flush or recessed when the train is moving. The loading gauge would allow for exactly the same width on both trains. Whether or not Siemens made the 350/450 body narrower is a quirk of them as manufacturers.
It's more down to the seat itself.

I know from experience that the Grammar seat that Siemens use is not good in a 3+2 configuration.

 

[Camden]

350s are 1 inch narrower than 321s, although I think perhaps the 350 may have a more substantial body, as the 321s do certainly seem wider inside.

In other news, 3 and 2 seating is awful and I think just shouldn't happen on our loading gauge regardless of train.

It's all very well supposedly providing extra seats, but no one wants to sit wedged next to someone else. I wonder if the "extra" seats they provide are more about seats on paper than bums on seats.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

LM, with DaFT agreement, ordered the 350s and 172s I believe. (The latter converted Snow Hill local services except the 2 remaining 150s to 2+2 seating from 3+2, notably).
Neil

LM (actually Central/Silverlink originally) didn't order the 350s directly.
The 350/1s were specified and ordered by SWT as a growth build of 450s, but before delivery the SRA decided to divert the last tranche to the WCML to save buying another new fleet.
The configuration of the order was altered to give 4-cars per unit in AC mode, with 2+2 seating for longer distance working.
LM subsequently ordered another compatible batch (350/2) but specified 2+3 seating for suburban working.

 

[Class 170101]

Note 350/1s can operate in both AC and DC mode and were used for a while between Watford and Gatwick as part of a Rolling Stock strategy involving Southern Class 377/2s (377/5s were late) as part of Thameslink Key Output Zero.

 

[Class377/5]

Note 350/1s can operate in both AC and DC mode and were used for a while between Watford and Gatwick as part of a Rolling Stock strategy involving Southern Class 377/2s (377/5s were late) as part of Thameslink Key Output Zero.

The 350s have never reached Gatwick. They did the Milton Keynes to Croydon services.

*off topic* but the 450s have reached Brighton via Lancing direction.

 

[sprinterguy]

Which trains are 2.76m wide?

The 23.0m Sprinters are 30cm narrower than that and the 23.8m Turbostars are 90cm narrower than that.

Turbostars are 7cm narrower than 2.76 metres, surely? Every source I've seen, including the data panels on the ends of the carriages, states their width as 2.69 metres.

 

[Class 170101]

The 350s have never reached Gatwick. They did the Milton Keynes to Croydon services.

That route keeps changing, hard to keep up sometimes. Thanks for the correction.

 

[wellwhatitis]

My morning train into Euston is the same, all seats (even the middle ones) On a 3x350/2 are usually taken at Apsley. And if ever a 350/1 or 350/3 ends up instead, chances are you'll be standing.

I don't know if the Desiro is narrower, or what, but 3+2 doesn't work on the 350s where it is actually OK on the 321s. Not only are the seats too narrow for people- even slender women- to comfortably fit on, the aisle is too narrow to stand properly. As for sitting on the aisle seat of a packed 350/2, I've not been as close to a stranger's crotch since that one time at Band Camp.

You should try working them....I have nearly knocked people out with the Avantix at times, and not the ones I would have liked to!

 

[Bletchleyite]

350s are quite narrow for 20m units, yes. 444s and 185s are *really* narrow.

Edit: Class 323: 2.80m, class 350: 2.796m, class 444 and 185 2.673m (how narrow these are is very obvious as a passenger).

A road coach is usually about 2.55m wide.

20m Electrostar 2.80m apparently, which is surprising as they feel much wider than the 350s. Perhaps the 350 has a slightly wider aisle but narrower seats?

Neil

 

[Class377/5]

That route keeps changing, hard to keep up sometimes. Thanks for the correction.

Your not the only one. I only know because I did the 350 from Croydon.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Note 350/1s can operate in both AC and DC mode and were used for a while between Watford and Gatwick

I thought DC had been isolated on them?

 

[Class377/5]

I thought DC had been isolated on them?

He did say can not currently do.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought DC had been isolated on them?

People do keep saying that, but I was on one in December that still had its shoes fitted, as I've said a few times the end of the shoe arm is not visible if you just take a quick glance because the shoe itself is almost completely hidden by the shoe beam when in the raised position.

There would be no need to 'isolate the DC' as such, because the DC link that the shoes connect into is also live when running on AC OHLE.

 

[ScotGG]

Couldn't some 319s go to SE metro or outer suburban routes? Overcrowding is worse since London Bridge rebuilding began. Some 319s on certain routes (eg Victoria?) would free up networkers for more 12 car running on the packed metro routes.

As ever over the past 5-10 years, it seems SE is overlooked despite the strong need, more obvious now than ever. New trains in Dec 2017 won't cut it. More are needed now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Slightly surprised at the 3 way swap rather than just sending 319s to Scotland given that they're near enough identical to 321s. Though that said perhaps keeping everything the same is easier.

Neil

 

[Class377/5]

Is there anything official to state the 321s are def going and the 319s are replacing them?

Does this also mean that ALL routes the 321s do south of Rugby will see 319s including Trings and Northamptons?

Nothing Offically. Use of the 319s on WCML is pure rumour currently.

Couldn't some 319s go to SE metro or outer suburban routes? Overcrowding is worse since London Bridge rebuilding began. Some 319s on certain routes (eg Victoria?) would free up networkers for more 12 car running on the packed metro routes.

As ever over the past 5-10 years, it seems SE is overlooked despite the strong need, more obvious now than ever. New trains in Dec 2017 won't cut it. More are needed now.

SE took on 6x 319s and swapped them for hiring 377s in return.

 

[ScotGG]

SE took on 6x 319s and swapped them for hiring 377s in return.

So they now have 6 377s - from Thameslink?

Is that a net addition to overall stock or just running on routes that were joint FCC/SE but now solely SE so the rest of the fleet saw no boost?

 

[Class377/5]

So they now have 6 377s - from Thameslink?

Is that a net addition to overall stock or just running on routes that were joint FCC/SE but now solely SE so the rest of the fleet saw no boost?

They are borrowing the 6x units on a four day basis. There is no joint services any more so it's an increase of six units. Let's not forget SE have had stock requirements reduced while Thameslink stock had been running the Sevenoaks and various peak services that required Thameslink to get 23x 377s and the rest of the 319s from Southern.

They've been sitting on additional stock since 2009 which they used to do the work on the Networkers. That's completed now so really SE have had additional stock already.

 

[ScotGG]

They are borrowing the 6x units on a four day basis. There is no joint services any more so it's an increase of six units. Let's not forget SE have had stock requirements reduced while Thameslink stock had been running the Sevenoaks and various peak services that required Thameslink to get 23x 377s and the rest of the 319s from Southern.

They've been sitting on additional stock since 2009 which they used to do the work on the Networkers. That's completed now so really SE have had additional stock already.

Cheers. The networker work has been completed but the new toilet work is now about to begin isn't it so that's a short term boost?

Having been using London Bridge the past week whatever boost they have seen is far from enough. I travel extensively and see overcrowding nationwide (including oft mentioned hotspots) and London Bridge platforms 1 & 2 have been up there with the very worst. It is now very bad, as are other stations like Lewisham, and people cannot board.

Any chance of any stock coming from anywhere to help in the next year?

 

[Class377/5]

Cheers. The networker work has been completed but the new toilet work is now about to begin isn't it so that's a short term boost?

Having been using London Bridge the past week whatever boost they have seen is far from enough. I travel extensively and see overcrowding nationwide (including oft mentioned hotspots) and London Bridge platforms 1 & 2 have been up there with the very worst. It is now very bad, as are other stations like Lewisham, and people cannot board.

Any chance of any stock coming from anywhere to help in the next year?

The boost for SE was in double figures (unit wise). Toilet mods won't actually dent the increase much really. Wouldn't be surprised if the additional 6x 319/377 swap was done to help lower networkers requirements somewhere.

The problem has been there's always been overcrowding so it was never an ideal situation. But then again the railway wanted to do this 20 years ago.

Only electric rolling stock that may be free next year will be 319s and you won't be able to swap it with Thameslink stock next year.

 

[Wolfie]

The boost for SE was in double figures (unit wise). Toilet mods won't actually dent the increase much really. Wouldn't be surprised if the additional 6x 319/377 swap was done to help lower networkers requirements somewhere.

The problem has been there's always been overcrowding so it was never an ideal situation. But then again the railway wanted to do this 20 years ago.

Only electric rolling stock that may be free next year will be 319s and you won't be able to swap it with Thameslink stock next year.

When are the 365s from Great Northern coming free? They would look to be the ideal solution. Less optimal might be some of Southern's 455s...

 

[Class377/5]

When are the 365s from Great Northern coming free? They would look to be the ideal solution. Less optimal might be some of Southern's 455s...

2017-2018. There's only a handful of 365s that have 3rd rail capability so of limited use without rewiring them. Not a cheap job. Look at the 458s on SWT for issues with this.

 

[sonic2009]

South Central used to run to Rugby using 319s so this may be where you saw a 319 in Northampton.

 

[plastictaffy]

I remember - used to be a Rugby-Brighton service, right??

 

[Tubeboy]

Yes Rugby to Brighton. Couldn't LM just renew the lease?

 

[jopsuk]

They could, but they haven't, and Scotrail will be taking the 321s

 

[northwichcat]

They could, but they haven't, and Scotrail will be taking the 321s

It's apparently more complicated than that.

LM's 321s are secured until April 2016 (when the Direct Award is due to start.) However, the Great Northern 321s were off-lease this year and Scotrail signed a deal to take on 7 of them from September before Govia renewed the lease.

As Govia are involved in both Great Northern and London Midland the two agreed LM would release their 321s and take on 319s in lieu rather than putting 319s on Great Northern. Not dis-similar to the deal where Southeastern secured 319s but use 377s in lieu.

 

[tsr]

I remember - used to be a Rugby-Brighton service, right??

As above, yes. And for the reassurance of any LM conductors, these 319s operated with guards, at least on the WCML.