London Midland/Northern EMU changes speculation

[158722]

Above neatly sums up what has been said on other threads. But I would add the following option (and then hide).

g) Let one operator have all the 323s and let the other have the 313s.

h) Both operators have 319 and 323 fleets, allowing 3, 4 and 6 cars to be deployed on suitable routes without any infrastructure changes.

For example, 323s have to be retained on Hadfield and Stoke stoppers (apparently), but Airport shuttles and Crewe stoppers? I don't think the latter group of services has been deemed as requiring the superior performance of the 323s, hence it could go over to 319s releasing some 323s to work Bolton line services as 6-car during the peaks.

That said, the post by the usually 'finger on the pulse' class377/5 seems to suggest that the LM 319s might be a like for like replacement for the 321s on their current duties...

 

[petersi]

Not a chance.




321s will be replaced by class 700s. Not giving a date.

From the announcements at the start of the franchise I tough the 321 and 317 were initially going to be displaced by 377 going on Cambridge express sometime 2017. With the 700's displacing half the 365's will be used on peak extras(ie 365's only used in peak to from Kings croos)

Has the plan now changed

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I see your line of thought.

The Crosscity line is a mix of 3 and 6 cars, even at peak times, but the only the New St-International shuttle is a stand alone single unit diagram. Would they want a mix of classes on the Cross City line where there are (I think) quite a few coupling/uncoupling of pairs during the day?

The Wolverhampton stopper only seems to run with single units (323 or 350).

 

[158722]

The Wolverhampton stopper only seems to run with single units (323 or 350).

Indeed yes, as mentioned earlier, this is covered by five single units - nowadays supposedly all 350s. Crosscity, for me, means the Lichfield/Walsall-Redditch/Longbridge axis.

 

[cjmillsnun]

But aren't Northern's 321s 'funded' by WYPTE? Not sure they can just send them out.

Northern have Dusties? I knew they had Spaceships.

 

[Class377/5]

From the announcements at the start of the franchise I tough the 321 and 317 were initially going to be displaced by 377 going on Cambridge express sometime 2017. With the 700's displacing half the 365's will be used on peak extras(ie 365's only used in peak to from Kings croos)

Has the plan now changed

Plan has changed quite a bit. Properly change again. Lots of interesting little bits too over the next few years too.

 

[Boothby97]

Northern have Dusties? I knew they had Spaceships.

They have 321901-903 (and 322481-485) which are used on Leeds area services

 

[phil beard]

This must mean that there are too many 319s for Northern, which I always thought was the case. In that case, sending some elsewhere and consolidating other fleets would seem to make sense.

 

[physics34]

This must mean that there are too many 319s for Northern, which I always thought was the case. In that case, sending some elsewhere and consolidating other fleets would seem to make sense.

Didnt someone say Northern Rail would eventually get 44???? Something like that, so there always was a surplus with the rest MAYBE going to FGW. The london midland news though was unexpected.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Let's not forget that there are 86 sets which thameslink will be going off-lease. Northern would never use them all so it makes sense for other operators to see the use in them.

I would however, consider the class 323s to have a much more dated interior compared to a 319.

LM definitely do need more 323s and that's been very noticeable since Cross City now has a train every 20 minutes to Redditch instead of every 30 minutes.
LM will most likely be below northern in the priority list for 319s. Interesting times ahead.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Techniquest]

Ooh this is interesting news. Just when I recently thought I was up to date with the juggling around of EMUs, I now have no idea what's going where! Well, apart from Northern getting 319s obviously.

I'll miss having a 321 on the WCML, but if it's a 319 instead I'll be very happy with that too. Of course, if LM then send more 350s down to the Northampton-Euston sector and give Birmingham the 319s/321s, I'd be a very, very happy chappy!

Any gen on when this is going to happen then? I'm assuming it's not for a few months at the least.

 

[Aictos]

Makes me think that perhaps LM will sub let these 319s to Great Northern so that the Great Northern 321s can go to Scotrail OR London Midland.

Great Northern swapping all its 321s for 319s would have the advantage that they don't have an extra type of unit to support. My main point is though that with Great Northern becoming part of the TSGN franchise some services will need dual voltage units for through working onto 3rd rail land and that makes perfect use of the dual voltage 319s.

London Midland would then end up with extra units of the same type as they already have if Scotrail does not get any 321s from Down South.

Just my two penyworth brain storm.

But there is no need for Great Northern to use 319s as by the time the route between the ECML and the Core is open in 2018, new Class 700s will be available.

Thus making the effort of having 319s on the GN a waste of time and resources plus the economics of having to train drivers at all GN depots on a new traction just isn't worth it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But there is no need for Great Northern to use 319s as by the time the route between the ECML and the Core is open in 2018, new Class 700s will be available.

Thus making the effort of having 319s on the GN a waste of time and resources plus the economics of having to train drivers at all GN depots on a new traction just isn't worth it.

Could not remember when the connection between StPancras and the ECML opens. I was assuming sooner than 2018 as I thought it was all there apart from the points and signals at each end of the link. Would things be getting tight if the 700s are late getting delivered ?. But 2018 is far enough off that no TOC would be worrying about that yet I suppose.

 

[Aictos]

Could not remember when the connection between StPancras and the ECML opens. I was assuming sooner than 2018 as I thought it was all there apart from the points and signals at each end of the link. Would things be getting tight if the 700s are late getting delivered ?. But 2018 is far enough off that no TOC would be worrying about that yet I suppose.

IIRC 2016 is when they arrive on the TL but they won't be in passenger service on the GN until 2018 because they have to wait for the rebuilding of London Bridge to be finished first - there simply isn't the capacity to run the GN to TL services atm.

I'm sure Bald Rick or Class 377/5 will have a much more detailed reply but that's what I believe has and is the case atm.

I think however the link will be open sometime in 2016 as it will be the main route to transfer units between Three Bridges and Hornsey again the two gentlemen would probably be able to give a much detailed description.

 

[Class377/5]

2018 in railway terms is not far off. Don't forget the timetable for December 2018 exists.

As for the Canal Tunnels (official name for the link between St Pancras and Finsbury Park) opens this summer (3rd la doesn't apply as its got a month, I just can't remember which), its not far off being compeleted. Its already built and signalled, but requires a few last bits completing. It can't be used for passenger services until London Bridge Thameslink changes are completed and more Thameslink services can be run through South London.

Offically the class 700s start on GN in 2017. If for some reason the class 700s experience a delay, currently not expected, then the roll out can be adjusted as final 700 isn't expected until June 2018, giving some extra time too.

 

[northwichcat]

For example, 323s have to be retained on Hadfield and Stoke stoppers (apparently), but Airport shuttles and Crewe stoppers? I don't think the latter group of services has been deemed as requiring the superior performance of the 323s, hence it could go over to 319s releasing some 323s to work Bolton line services as 6-car during the peaks.

I imagine any peak time EMU service stopping at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme needs the superior acceleration.

The other thing to remember about switching services from 323s to 319s is that 319s cost more to operate than 323s, so who would pay for the additional cost of operating 319s on Alderley Edge turnbacks when the extra capacity is not needed?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let's not forget that there are 86 sets which thameslink will be going off-lease. Northern would never use them all so it makes sense for other operators to see the use in them.

It was never intended for Northern to take them all on. It was envisaged they'd be split between Northern and FGW possibly with a few left over for a third operator.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given that the 319s doors are not even at the ends of the coaches the length of a 4-car 319 might be nearer to only 75m from front cab to last passenger door ?.

I was following on from your earlier comment of:

We seem to be heading for a surplus of intercity diesel trains and a shortage of slower suburban diesel trains.

By saying if the 150s are withdrawn (and no new DMUs are ordered) then they'll be no more 20m DMUs.

 

[westcoaster]

If these go on the WCMl South, then there are lots of ex bedford drivers at Bletchley and northampton, who have previous knowledge on them. Also a 319 minus dc gear is almost the same as a 321, Maybe a days conversion training.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By saying if the 150s are withdrawn (and no new DMUs are ordered) then they'll be no more 20m DMUs.

I think the move generally is towards 23m vehicles, the only place this has not been done is Southern EMUs as there are clearance issues.

(LM 350s are Southern, well, South Western, EMUs, which were repurposed to the WCML at the last minute, then more of the same were ordered for consistency)

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

I think the move generally is towards 23m vehicles, the only place this has not been done is Southern EMUs as there are clearance issues.

(LM 350s are Southern, well, South Western, EMUs, which were repurposed to the WCML at the last minute, then more of the same were ordered for consistency)

Neil

If the stock is made wide enough to allow for 3+2 seating then it's more difficult to make the carriages 23 point something metres long and obtain universal clearance. That isn't just an issue in the South - you can't just send the 165s and 166s to any route when Thames Valley is electrified.

The 450s were designed for having 3+2 seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the stock is made wide enough to allow for 3+2 seating then it's more difficult to make the carriages 23 point something metres long and obtain universal clearance.

Apart from that 3+2 seating is rubbish and not to be encouraged, the Class 323s are go-anywhere (well, go anywhere there are wires) and have 3+2 seating, so that oft-made statement, while maybe true, is not a barrier to building a wide (2.80m, same as the Class 150) 23m unit, provided you taper the ends in.

Neil

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apart from that 3+2 seating is rubbish and not to be encouraged, the Class 323s are go-anywhere (well, go anywhere there are wires) and have 3+2 seating, so that oft-made statement, while maybe true, is not a barrier to building a wide (2.80m, same as the Class 150) 23m unit, provided you taper the ends in.
Neil

Nearly. The go-anywhere tag for 323s is only for the traction gear, and hasn't been exploited at all (they have stayed on their original routes).
They would still have to be dimensionally cleared on specific routes if they moved (eg to Glasgow or Fenchurch St).

 

[northwichcat]

Apart from that 3+2 seating is rubbish and not to be encouraged, the Class 323s are go-anywhere (well, go anywhere there are wires) and have 3+2 seating, so that oft-made statement, while maybe true, is not a barrier to building a wide (2.80m, same as the Class 150) 23m unit, provided you taper the ends in.

323s and 333s (which are also wide 23m trains) aren't cleared to go anywhere with wires without restrictions even though they are fine to operate on the electrified lines in their respective local areas: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...d2_gauge capability_emus_lne_mandc routes.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

323s and 333s (which are also wide 23m trains) aren't cleared to go anywhere with wires without restrictions even though they are fine to operate on the electrified lines in their respective local areas: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...d2_gauge capability_emus_lne_mandc routes.pdf

I stand corrected.

Nonetheless, as 3+2 seating is not desireable, a 2.76m wide 23m unit would be fine

(Nobody really like 3+2 except family groups in the 6s, and as such you'd be better doing a 2+2 unit with narrowish seats allowing a wide aisle for standing in very busy areas, with suitable rails for holding onto)

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Nonetheless, as 3+2 seating is not desireable, a 2.76m wide 23m unit would be fine

Which trains are 2.76m wide?

The 23.0m Sprinters are 30cm narrower than that and the 23.8m Turbostars are 90cm narrower than that. The reason I checked is I know 150s and 319s are 2.80m wide so if they were only 40cm wider than stock with 2+2 seating it would be extremely tight for getting an extra seat in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which trains are 2.76m wide?

The 23.0m Sprinters are 30cm narrower than that and the 23.8m Turbostars are 90cm narrower than that. The reason I checked is I know 150s and 319s are 2.80m wide so if they were only 40cm wider than stock with 2+2 seating it would be extremely tight for getting an extra seat in.

Sorry, 2.73m, I could have sworn 156s were 2.76 but they're not.

My point is once you abandon 3+2, which is rubbish anyway, the width of 23m vehicles is perfectly adequate.

By the way you mean 3cm and 9cm, not 30 and 90.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry, 2.73m, I could have sworn 156s were 2.76 but they're not.

My point is once you abandon 3+2, which is rubbish anyway, the width of 23m vehicles is perfectly adequate.

By the way you mean 3cm and 9cm, not 30 and 90.

Neil

I was using the SRA measurements which allowed for the interior of the train to be bigger than the exterior

 

[AM9]

My point is once you abandon 3+2, which is rubbish anyway, ....

They won't be abandoned anytime soon as they enable TOCs to achieve DfT requirements with fewer coaches/trains, (or in some cases, achieve seat numbers within line capacity). If the public choose not to sit on the additional seats that's up to them. On busy lines like Thameslink in the peak the 319s and Electrostars seem to have most of the centre of three seats occupied on the busiest parts of the line, e.g. STP to SAC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They won't be abandoned anytime soon

Well, sort-of. London Midland has agreed they are unpopular and has stated they will not be ordering any new stock with them.

Neil

 

[455driver]

Well, sort-of. London Midland has agreed they are unpopular and has stated they will not be ordering any new stock with them.

Neil

Well as LM wont be ordering the stock (DaFT will) that statement doesnt mean anything!

Try travelling up the Pompy direct during the morning peak, 12 coach 450s rammed full, all seats taken and lots of people standing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Try travelling up the Pompy direct during the morning peak, 12 coach 450s rammed full, all seats taken and lots of people standing.

My morning train into Euston is the same, all seats (even the middle ones) On a 3x350/2 are usually taken at Apsley. And if ever a 350/1 or 350/3 ends up instead, chances are you'll be standing.

I don't know if the Desiro is narrower, or what, but 3+2 doesn't work on the 350s where it is actually OK on the 321s. Not only are the seats too narrow for people- even slender women- to comfortably fit on, the aisle is too narrow to stand properly. As for sitting on the aisle seat of a packed 350/2, I've not been as close to a stranger's crotch since that one time at Band Camp.