London - Liverpool (via Manchester)

[All Line Rover]

Seeing as the NRG is a regulated document, historically based on regulated fares, I am uncomfortable with changes being made based on the values of volatile unregulated fares. The sole criterion should be the values of regulated NFM64 fares, and if the TOCs are unhappy with that, never mind. Like it or lump it, as is the case with regulated off-peak and season tickets.

 

[adrock1976]

I can reluctantly understand London - Liverpool via Manchester being withdrawn, but via Warrington?

London - Liverpool via Warrington has always to my knowledge been a valid route since the days of the London & Birmingham Railway and Grand Junction Railway when through trains ran to both Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington.

Cheers

Adam

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can reluctantly understand London - Liverpool via Manchester being withdrawn, but via Warrington?

London - Liverpool via Warrington has always to my knowledge been a valid route since the days of the London & Birmingham Railway and Grand Junction Railway when through trains ran to both Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington.

Cheers

Adam

Liverpool-Warrington-London was not a mapped route in the 1996 Routeing Guide (except as noted via Crewe, Wigan and Manchester)

 

[Merseysider]

Seeing as the NRG is a regulated document, historically based on regulated fares, I am uncomfortable with changes being made based on the values of volatile unregulated fares. The sole criterion should be the values of regulated NFM64 fares, and if the TOCs are unhappy with that, never mind. Like it or lump it, as is the case with regulated off-peak and season tickets.

That's a good post.

I would go further and say that fares and pricing should not be the basis of what is permitted and what isn't. The reasonableness of each route should be considered on its own merits, and where appropiate, additional fares implemented to minimise the loss to the TOC and to the passenger.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Looking in my copy of the '96 Routeing Guide (the old paper one), it would be fair to say..."Not really".

The only maps for Liverpool Group-London Group were LM and CS, but they do offer two options.

Liverpool-Crewe-Manchester-Stoke-London
Liverpool-Crewe-Wigan/Preston-Bolton-Manchester-Stoke-London

Not sure either could be argued to be 'reasonable'.

Liverpool-Warrington-London was not a mapped route in the 1996 Routeing Guide (except as noted via Crewe, Wigan and Manchester)

If Liverpool to London via Warrington or Manchester was not a permitted route under earlier versions of the routeing guide I am not sure how you would stand in asking for the decision to remove it again being reversed.

That's a good post.

I would go further and say that fares and pricing should not be the basis of what is permitted and what isn't. The reasonableness of each route should be considered on its own merits, and where appropiate, additional fares implemented to minimise the loss to the TOC and to the passenger.

The problems with "reasonable routes" is that everyone's interpretation of reasonable is different. What you think is reasonable may well be different to mine.

 

[Merseysider]

Standard stock responses from TPE and NT.

Dear Mr Fassam

Thank you for contacting us regarding the removal of permitted routes between Liverpool and London via Manchester.

As a customer led business we will always strive to meet the needs of as many of our passengers as we can, but it does mean that, much as we should like to do so, we cannot please everyone. Our train services are subject to regular review in the light of experience and customer comments such as yours. I shall certainly log your valuable comments for the attention of our train planning department who will take them into consideration where it is feasible to do so.

Thank you once again for contacting us and for your feedback on this matter

Thomas Bishop

Customer Relations Advisor

Our Reference NR/ 423954

Dear Mr Fassam

Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

After speaking with Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) I believe they have already addressed this matter and therefore there is nothing further for us to add.

Thank you again for taking the trouble to contact Northern.



Yours sincerely


Neil Armstrong
Customer Relations Officer

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am not sure how you would stand in asking for the decision to remove it again being reversed.

I'm not sure how I would stand either, but there's only one way to find out.
I suppose I would even settle for a 'via Warrington' or 'via Manchester' fare being implemented.

If someone wanted to undercut the MAN-EUS SOR price there are hundreds of ways of doing so (thanks, Fares Workshops!) which is partly why I am so sceptical about the reasoning behind ATOC's decision. If they were considering removing the permitted route(s) last year, that's more than enough time for VT to request the creation of a new flow via Manchester.

 

[gray1404]

I am having a problem with a ticket I brought between Formby (which is just outside of Liverpool on Merseyside) and London. On the return journey of my Off Peak Return which I started making on 27/02/15, I broke my journey at Stoke on Trent, stayed overnight and continued to the following morning of 28/02/15 to Manchester where I spent the day. I finished the last part of my journey to Formby the same day during the evening.

The leg of the journey between Stoke on Trent and Manchester was delayed and I submitted a complaint to Cross Country as it exceeded 30 minutes, attaching my ticket to the email. I received a reply from them today. Their email was very sincere about the problems and polite but did say: "If you wish to make a delay repay claim please send me your valid ticket. This is because the ticket I have received is for a journey from London to Formby."

I have replied to the email explaining that was my ticket and I was breaking the return journey. Please can someone confirm that under the old routing rules I was fine traveling as described above (i.e. Euston to Stoke on Trent, Stoke on Trent to Manchester and then Manchester to Formby - changing trains at Liverpool South Parkway). The last thing I want is to run into problems with the train company saying my ticket wasn't valid.

 

[Merseysider]

Your ticket was valid on route GC+BM+NR, which translates into a mapped route from London to Liverpool via Stoke, Manchester and Liverpool South Parkway. As your ticket was purchased before this route was wiped out, it's valid (reason - a contract cannot be unilaterally changed to the detriment of one party).

If you broke your journey because there were no more trains at the time you got into SOT then I would say you'd be entitled for delay repay for the cost of EUS-LIV.

If you could have continued that evening then in my opinion I think CrossCountry would be justified in only paying delay repay for the equivalent cost of SOT-LIV.

Either way, write back and tell them London - Formby was valid on the route you took at the time you bought the ticket.

 

[OwlMan]

Delay repay is only payable for the entire journey - not for part of it. If you still got your intended train to Formby after your day in Manchester there is no delay repayment payable.

 

[Merseysider]

Delay repay is only payable for the entire journey - not for part of it. If you still got your intended train to Formby after your day in Manchester there is no delay repayment payable.

Is it? I've part-claimed before (twice) and not had any issues.

 

[gray1404]

Received this reply from Cross Country today: -
"Can you please confirm the times of each leg of your journey from London (including station name) to Formby so I can locate your delay and validate your claim."

I am totally disgusted at this. XC started off by implying that my ticket wasn't valid. Now I've explained that I did a break of journey they reply this this. Talk about dragging out the process. As in my previous post, I spread my return journey out over 3 days and we established that I traveled via a Permitted Route on my Off Peak Return Ticket.. Day one I traveled from London Euston to Stoke on Trent. Day to I caught the train from Stoke on Trent to Manchester Piccadilly and then on day 3 Manchester to Formby (changing trains at Liverpool South Parkway).

My journey from Stoke on Trent to Manchester was canceled by XC and this resulted in a delay of over 30 minutes. I made a note of this information and provided it with a complaint to them. But for the other trains, I just turned up at the station and got on the next train. You'll be aware of the high intense services between Euston and Manchester (via Stoke) and also on the Manchester to Liverpool line and then for the last leg of my journey to Formby its a service every 15 minutes so I didn't record this information.

I feel like XC are being unreasonable and dragging this out. Should I ask them to decide on my claim on the basis of the information they have i.e. a copy of my valid ticket, details of the route I took, the train they cancelled and that this caused a delay on my arrival into Manchester of an hour. I am not sure what to do. I am not happy they are dragging this out.

I understand that if they refuse my claim I can ask for it to be reviewed by a Manager in the Customer Relations Department and then send it to Passenger Focus for review.

Any advise? Thanks!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Received this reply from Cross Country today: -
"Can you please confirm the times of each leg of your journey from London (including station name) to Formby so I can locate your delay and validate your claim."

I am totally disgusted at this. XC started off by implying that my ticket wasn't valid. Now I've explained that I did a break of journey they reply this this. Talk about dragging out the process. As in my previous post, I spread my return journey out over 3 days and we established that I traveled via a Permitted Route on my Off Peak Return Ticket.. Day one I traveled from London Euston to Stoke on Trent. Day to I caught the train from Stoke on Trent to Manchester Piccadilly and then on day 3 Manchester to Formby (changing trains at Liverpool South Parkway).

My journey from Stoke on Trent to Manchester was canceled by XC and this resulted in a delay of over 30 minutes. I made a note of this information and provided it with a complaint to them. But for the other trains, I just turned up at the station and got on the next train. You'll be aware of the high intense services between Euston and Manchester (via Stoke) and also on the Manchester to Liverpool line and then for the last leg of my journey to Formby its a service every 15 minutes so I didn't record this information.

I feel like XC are being unreasonable and dragging this out. Should I ask them to decide on my claim on the basis of the information they have i.e. a copy of my valid ticket, details of the route I took, the train they cancelled and that this caused a delay on my arrival into Manchester of an hour. I am not sure what to do. I am not happy they are dragging this out.

I understand that if they refuse my claim I can ask for it to be reviewed by a Manager in the Customer Relations Department and then send it to Passenger Focus for review.

Any advise? Thanks!

As I understand it, Delay Repay is applicable to your journey, not individual train services in that journey, thus if you intended to break your journey you may not be eligible if you reached the destination of your journey on time.

 

[Merseysider]

As I understand it, Delay Repay is applicable to your journey, not individual train services in that journey, thus if you intended to break your journey you may not be eligible if you reached the destination of your journey on time.

However, he made several journeys.

It doesn't matter what ticket you hold for a journey for delay repay to be applicable.

If I decided to travel from Crewe to Stafford on a MAN-EUS return and got delayed, I'd be eligible, as I had a valid ticket. Similarly, the OP had a valid ticket for the journey they were undertaking.

gray1404, I would try and establish which trains exactly you took. Eg by looking on Realtimetrains you can locate the delay for these incompetent people and work out the exact effect this had on your journey.

If your claim is refused after you take this step, I would reccomend forwarding it to both a manager and Passenger Focus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seeing as the NRG is a regulated document, historically based on regulated fares, I am uncomfortable with changes being made based on the values of volatile unregulated fares. The sole criterion should be the values of regulated NFM64 fares, and if the TOCs are unhappy with that, never mind. Like it or lump it, as is the case with regulated off-peak and season tickets.

I'm more bothered that the TOCs want to just say "get lost, no you can't" for certain not-unreasonable journeys (such as Heyford/Tackley to London via Banbury) rather than introducing routed fares at a higher price, perhaps in that case the same fare as or slightly more than Banbury. Then set the existing fares to route OXFORD. This is very clear to the passenger rather than being a dark art like the Routeing Guide.

If people want to make those journeys, why not allow them to and charge them the proper rate for doing so?

As for London-Liverpool the obvious solution seems to be to increase the Liverpool fare by two quid making them the same and removing the anomaly.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

If people want to make those journeys, why not allow them to and charge them the proper rate for doing so?

As for London-Liverpool the obvious solution seems to be to increase the Liverpool fare by two quid making them the same and removing the anomaly.

But that would be far too sensible! Besides, there'd be nothing in it for Virgin, nor TPE (who'd probably get about £1 of the LIV-EUS fare).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

However, he made several journeys.

It doesn't matter what ticket you hold for a journey for delay repay to be applicable.

If I decided to travel from Crewe to Stafford on a MAN-EUS return and got delayed, I'd be eligible, as I had a valid ticket. Similarly, the OP had a valid ticket for the journey they were undertaking....

A single ticket is valid for one journey from the origin to the destination and a return ticket is valid for one journey in each direction. The passenger can end, break and resume, or start their journey at an intermediate station (unless the ticket restrictions forbid it). It doesn't necessarily follow that, if they break and resume their journey, they are making two journeys.

 

[bb21]

If you break and resume a journey, does that then become two journeys? If so, I guess the new style tickets are no longer valid for break of journey as they are only valid for "one journey".

But on a more serious note, gray1404, did you provide them with the details of the XC train that was delayed in your original claim?

I think you have a fairly speedy response by XC's usual standards here. I am still waiting for the response to a claim I submitted in mid-February and in my experience they are fairly slow most of the time.

 

[Merseysider]

Well if it was all one journey split over several days, XC clearly delayed his planned arrival time in Manchester on the second day, but not his overall journey.

It is quite clear there is nothing in the NRCoC stating you must make all your journey in one go in order to be eligible for delay repay.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well if it was all one journey split over several days, XC clearly delayed his planned arrival time on the last day because he got there 30m+ later than he would have done if they'd ran their train on time....

Oh I'm sorry, I was under the impression he said:

"Day one I traveled from London Euston to Stoke on Trent. Day to I caught the train from Stoke on Trent to Manchester Piccadilly and then on day 3 Manchester to Formby "

Just so we are clear that is:

• Day one - London to Stoke
  
• Day two - Stoke to Manchester
  
• Day three - Manchester to Formby
  
• He was delayed on the Stoke-Manchester part

....It is quite clear there is nothing in the NRCoC stating you must make all your journey in one go in order to be eligible for delay repay.

Ah, so he did only make one journey then. Did he arrive at his destination, Formby, late on the third day because his train on the second day was late?

 

[Merseysider]

Oh I'm sorry,

No need to apologise, unless it's for the sarcasm

I was under the impression he said:

"Day one I traveled from London Euston to Stoke on Trent. Day to I caught the train from Stoke on Trent to Manchester Piccadilly and then on day 3 Manchester to Formby "

Just so we are clear that is:

• Day one - London to Stoke
  
• Day two - Stoke to Manchester
  
• Day three - Manchester to Formby
  
• He was delayed on the Stoke-Manchester part

Ah, so he did only make one journey then. Did he arrive at his destination, Formby, late on the third day because his train on the second day was late?

My previous post was incorrect and has duly been corrected. I mistakenly believed he continued on from Manchester that day.

But yes, you are correct.

If it was three separate journeys over three separate days he'd be eligible because his second journey, Stoke to Manchester, was delayed.
If it was one journey, he wouldn't be eligible, as his overall arrival time in Formby was as intended.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am having a problem with a ticket I brought between Formby (which is just outside of Liverpool on Merseyside) and London. On the return journey of my Off Peak Return which I started making on 27/02/15, I broke my journey at Stoke on Trent, stayed overnight and continued to the following morning of 28/02/15 to Manchester where I spent the day. I finished the last part of my journey to Formby the same day during the evening.

You don't say how late you were arriving at Formby compared to your plan.
Maybe I'm being old-fashioned, but I think an off-peak fare for your routeing is pretty good value.
I wouldn't dream of claiming a refund for a bit of delay on such a complex route.
So one train in four was 30 minutes late? That's life.
I know it's not a 21st century view...

 

[Starmill]

I've claimed delay repay before where I was stopping short on a ticket, admittedly only one stop though. And I didn't check if there had been a train to the destination on the ticket and if I'd taken it how late I'd been - why would I, I never went there? Just arrived at my intended destination and left the station. (Lancaster - Levenshulme as a return portion, arrived at Piccadilly 30 minutes late from Lancaster, never intended to go back to Levenshulme, just had come from there in the morning.)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've claimed delay repay before where I was stopping short on a ticket, admittedly only one stop though. And I didn't check if there had been a train to the destination on the ticket and if I'd taken it how late I'd been - why would I, I never went there? Just arrived at my intended destination and left the station. (Lancaster - Levenshulme as a return portion, arrived at Piccadilly 30 minutes late from Lancaster, never intended to go back to Levenshulme, just had come from there in the morning.)

Would you not say that you where ending your journey though, rather than breaking and resuming.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Members of this forum regularly state that your journey is defined by where you ultimately start travelling and where you ultimately stop travelling, i.e. when split tickets are being discussed it is stated you may be using several tickets but are only making one journey, not a number of smaller ones. In addition Condition 16 of the NRCOC makes it fairly clear that you may break and resume your journey to stay overnight en route, for example. Thus I believe that your trip from London to Formby was actually ONE journey which you chose to break and resume en-route and ultimately, I suspect, any entitlement to delay repay will be based on your arrival time at tour destination at the completion of your journey.

 

[Starmill]

Would you not say that you where ending your journey though, rather than breaking and resuming.

Yes, I agree. And it seems that in this case, Delay Repay is payable.
In a way, by continuing thejourney to Formby you might say you've done yourself out of the compensation!

 

[Merseysider]

My MP has been in contact with ATOC and has forwarded me the correspondence. Time for a judicial review?

Edited to add that I had not "been benefitting from an error in the Routeing Guide". There is an assumption on ATOC's part that I had been using Liv-Eus to undercut Man-Eus, which is not the case. There are far better ways of not paying full whack than this!

Dear ATOC,

I have been contacted by a constituent about recent changes to the Routing Guide, please see email below. I am surprised at the removal of Manchester as an acceptable route from London to Liverpool, and would like to echo my constituent’s request that this decision be reviewed and reversed. I would also be grateful for an explanation of the rationale behind this decision, which I could share with my constituent.

Best wishes,
John Leech

Member of Parliament for Manchester Withington

Dear Mr Leech, MP

Thank you for your email dated 26 March 2015 on behalf of your constituent Mr Jake Fassam, regarding recent changes to the Routing Guide.

Historically travel between London and Liverpool was not permitted via Manchester prior to 2000. The permission to allow travel via this particular route was introduced when the renewal of the West Coast mainline – which included a significant programme of engineering and upgrades – saw services running from London St Pancras to Liverpool via Manchester. This was only ever intended as a short term measure for the duration of the engineering works at which point it should have been removed.

Unfortunately these permissions were left in place in error and it was only with the widespread use of public facing internet booking engines, such as National Rail Enquiries, that this error became known to a group of travellers and the rail industry.

Tickets were not intended to be used in this way and Mr Fassam had been benefitting from an error in the Routeing Guide. The reason why you are not allowed to travel to Liverpool via Manchester is because historically (and this is still the case), tickets to Liverpool are cheaper than tickets to Manchester. Additionally, there is no time advantage to travel to Liverpool via Manchester and to do so requires at least one change of train. For these reasons we sought the removal of these permissions from the Routeing Guide.

When requesting a change to the Routeing Guide we need to seek approval from the Department for Transport (DfT) and Passenger Focus (PF) who will consider whether the request is reasonable. Permission was granted by the DfT and PF in April 2014 and the removal of the route was completed this year.

Mr Fassam contacted us about this matter in March and we responded to explain why the permission for this particular route was removed – please see attached email. We recognise that Mr Fassam feels strongly about this matter and we’re sorry if this is disappointing news, however I am afraid that we will be unable to re-instate this route.

I trust this answers your query but should you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely,
Jonathan Pace

Jonathan Pace
Customer Relations Manager| Association of Train Operating Companies
020 7841 8062| jonathan.pace@atoc.org| www.atoc.org
2nd floor, 200 Aldersgate Street, London, EC1A 4HD

Dear Jake,
ATOC have contacted me about the rationale for removing the London to Liverpool via Manchester route. Please see their email below. I am afraid they are not willing to budge on the issue at the moment.
As you will imagine this is an extremely busy period for me and my office. However, if you wish for me to continue pursuing this with them then please feel free to contact me after the election. I am afraid I cannot promise to get around to this again before 7 May.
Kind regards,
John Leech

 

[First class]

I do agree that Liverpool-London shouldn't necessarily be valid via Manchester, without the introduction of a higher VIA MANCHESTER fare. There's an hourly direct fast service (more frequent in the peak), supplemented by half hourly London Midland services to Crewe/Stafford, with onward connections to London, plus 4tph Merseyrail services to Chester, with hourly connections from there through to Euston. Plenty of alternative and reasonable routes that don't have fare(s) issues associated with them.
(Incidentally an ANY PERMITTED Ormskirk-London ticket is cheaper than a Liverpool-London ticket, and presumably allows a larger selection of routes).

The big issue that I have is validity via Warrington being removed. Liverpool-Earlestown-Warrington-Euston is far more reasonable than via Manchester, and in any event, some Virgin proposals even consider routing an additional train to Liverpool via this route.

I would suggest that for travel via Manchester, there's scope for EMT to offer Advance or dedicated walkup fares from Liverpool-London via Sheffield.

 

[Hadders]

I'd be interested to know the history of fares between EUS-MAN and EUS-LIV.

Consider standard class tickets, the Anytime Return and Anytime single fares are more expensive between EUS-MAN than EUS-LIV. These are unregulated fares and I wonder if the fares were identical at some point in the past and Virgin have chosen to increase Manchester fares more than Liverpool ones.

The regulated off-peak return fares are identical.....

 

[First class]

I'd be interested to know the history of fares between EUS-MAN and EUS-LIV.

Consider standard class tickets, the Anytime Return and Anytime single fares are more expensive between EUS-MAN than EUS-LIV. These are unregulated fares and I wonder if the fares were identical at some point in the past and Virgin have chosen to increase Manchester fares more than Liverpool ones.

The regulated off-peak return fares are identical.....

NFM95 the SOS/ SOR for MAN-EUS was £109.50/£219.00 & LIV-EUS was £102.50/£205.00

They've not been identical for a long, long time, if ever.

 

[erk]

In May 1983:

London - Liverpool SOR £39
London - Manchester SOR £39

London - Liverpool via Manchester SOR £44
London - Manchester via Liverpool SOR £44