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London Buses Discussion

MotCO

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are essential and so are cycle lanes.
Not always. The roads near Orpington Station were narrowed to create cycle paths. Result is severe traffic congestion, and few cyclists (if any) use the cycle path.

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Passengers like the idea of quicker buses that don't stop everywhere even if they aren't particularly fast in reality. I live in Brighton on the 20 mile long high frequency B&H Coaster services 12/12A/12X (Brighton - Newhaven - Eastbourne). It is noticeable how many passengers waiting at City Centre bus stops will hold back for a 12X if there's one displayed even though the time saving for the first half and busiest part of the route to Newhaven is only around 5 minutes. I've seen this behaviour in London too at Shepherd's Bush where the 207 and 607 share stops.
Is it because passengers feel 'better' or 'superior' riding the limited stop bus than the all-stopper?
 
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LUYMun

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Not always. The roads near Orpington Station were narrowed to create cycle paths. Result is severe traffic congestion, and few cyclists (if any) use the cycle path.
You can put the same argument to bus lanes ("bus lanes make roads narrower", "there are hardly any buses that use it") and it still isn't a strong argument. Just like how buses are able to skip traffic be down the road, cyclists would've skipped the traffic and be somewhere else.
 

Sussexwatch

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There’s an X140 and a 140 operating in north west London.
Current Harrow to Northolt live times.
X140 13 mins journey time
140 19 mins journey time.
Is a hypothetical X119 from Croydon to Bromley actually going to be much quicker than the current 119? Is there merit in running separate 'X119' and 'X269' routes, or would they be combined as one Croydon to Bexleyheath route?

X26 is great but it does have a significant problem on a Saturday afternoon in the Kingston area (and maybe at other times).
An X119 could omit West Wickham going via Coombe Road, Addington Village and Kent Gate Way to Hayes, then existing 119 to Bromley. That would save several minutes between Croydon and Bromley. Then it could continue over the 269 to Bexleyheath.
 

Goldfish62

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There really isn't that much scope for bus priority in London and obviously loading bays are essential and so are cycle lanes.
That's an incredibly sweeping statement. I assume you're just thinking in terms of central London rather than all the large towns that also make up Greater London.
 

DC1989

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There is certainly a lot of room for lanes in many outer London areas. Personally I think it's such a big opportunity to kill two birds with one stone by having 24/7 bus lanes that ONLY buses and cyclists can use (And emergency services of course)
 

MotCO

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@DC1989
That would certainly solve the Orpington problem I referred to above. In reality, only buses would use the joint bus and cycle lane since literally no cyclists use the cycle path.
 

Goldfish62

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London’s bus priority is some of the worst in the country! Which is kinda ironic considering how much the public transport network is bigged up. Bus lanes that full of parked cars or loading bays, bus lanes that are too narrow. Complete lack of bus only roads and bus priority lights (where there are two sets of lights, with the bus ones changing first for a few seconds) too many taxis clogging up bus lanes. Cycle lanes taking more room from buses. I don’t think it’ll get any better I’m afraid.
TfL's bus priority programme was shelved by Johnson as soon as he was elected (together with other public transport projects). Khan must also take some blame for only partly resurrecting it.
 

Sussexwatch

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Not always. The roads near Orpington Station were narrowed to create cycle paths. Result is severe traffic congestion, and few cyclists (if any) use the cycle path.

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Is it because passengers feel 'better' or 'superior' riding the limited stop bus than the all-stopper?
If you are going to be on a bus for half an hour or more, stopping at every stop feels incredibly tedious, especially on a busy route. Thats when limited stop services start to have an appeal.
 

MPW

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Not always. The roads near Orpington Station were narrowed to create cycle paths. Result is severe traffic congestion, and few cyclists (if any) use the cycle path.

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Is it because passengers feel 'better' or 'superior' riding the limited stop bus than the all-stopper?
The problem with those cycle lanes are that all other roads in the area are dangerous for cyclists. The cycle path ends before the road narrows under the bridge and the route through to town centre is pretty chaotic where the pub and bus stops mean lots of conflicting and unpredictable movements. So people would only use that lane to get to the station itself, which has a massive car park. In the other direction the cycle lane only runs for a few hundred meters to the roundabout, so again effectively a dead-end in terms of safe routes. Its entire route is within walking distance of the station with a steep hill. If the council does nothing else in the area then yes it was a waste of money because it doesn't serve any useful purpose without further connections.

I am the only one I ever see cycling to do drop-off/pick-up from our nursery, and the other parents thinks I'm crazy for doing it. And thats only less than 5 minutes by bike!

So to bring it back to the bus discussion: a huge part of the local road congestion is due to trips which would be <10 minutes on bike but not deemed safe, so in the cars they go, sitting in school run traffic and slowing down buses.
 

Fleetmaster

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My local express runs non-stop from a transport hub to its first destination, meaning it gets there in 13 minutes compared to the 30 minutes on the stopping service.

This saving is not achieved by missing out bus stops or using bus lanes or any other priority measures, all of which are already used by all local services. It is achieved by taking an entirely different route, using high speed urban dual carriageway and other recent urban road improvements designed in the main to speed cars on their way past and around traditional bus roads.

The service is hugely popular, with savvy passengers these days using bustimes (because traffic means the timetables for both services are usually fictional at peak times) to decide that yes, it's often worth your while to wait in situ for ten minutes, rather than get on the stopper and wait even longer in transit.

I strongly suspect it only has the loads it does, not because it is serving some hugely in demand handful of destination stops at the other end like some quasi urban rapid transit, but instead once it has finished its high speed run, becomes a bog standard ordinary bus service calling at all the stops the stopper does, serving an office park, light industry, local high streets, schools, a shopping centre and housing estate roads.

Every single passenger on that service benefits, with the person at the very end of the line having saved 17 minutes, with those getting off first having miraculously more than halved their journey time.

This is a commercial bus service serving an area of ample car ownership but in a place where parking is expensive and time consuming to reach. There is also a suburban rail option that covers most of the route but which presumably is less attractive for reasons of cost and time, requiring as it does a transfer to a local bus for the last leg of any nominal equivalent journey.

The operator has clearly thought hard about where people want to go, what is important to them, and what they can achieve in an environment where the local authority is at best, ambivalent to doing anything that would help buses compete with trains or cars.

The service isn't specially branded, uses bog standard deckers, and uses the standard fare system. The hub waiting area is nothing special, with the usual charming scenes of British urbanity.

Other than the X, you might have no clue it was an amazingly useful service, as you honk your way through town in your Chelsea Tractor.

The operator is clearly making enough money to sustain a 6am to 6pm express service even though it requires three buses and their drivers, scarce resources that could be deployed on other duties, with their core urban routes always in need of anything that might help maintain impressively high frequency headways that sadly crumble at the first sign of a temporary traffic light or a forklift truck!?!? unloading a 40 tonne!??!! lorry in a mixed retail/domestic street whose loading bays, if they even exist and are legal to use at these peak times, are full 24 hours a day due to what I am sure must be Uber drivers hanging out between fares.

I somehow doubt Mayor Khaaaaan! has at his disposal what it takes to get this level of advantage for the humble bus passenger. He may even struggle to achieve this level of benefit even though in so many ways he has so many more advantages.

The very fact he seems to think branding is key, suggests not. One of the many advantages of this express service of course being that for the vast majority of passengers, they don't start their journey at that hub. They arrive there via other means, a large proportion of which come by buses operated by that very same operator, seeing this express as an integral part of the network.

There are other express routes in the network, where the same advantages can be had. They are not even remotely used to serve airports or out of town retail parks, to the point it seems like a deliberate choice on the part of the operator not to waste five minutes getting passengers closer to their doors when there is ample train/car provision. There isn't one serving the only non-central hospital (the central one being a ten minute wall from the hub), because whether by accident of local geography or good use of yellow lines, the ordinary stopper reaches the hub in 15 minutes, while also giving a seamless connection to far flung estates the other side of the hub.

And even though it's quite a busy place, as hubs tend to be, I strongly suspect that recent improvements in urban cycleways and secure cycle storage has probably increased ridership, especially for students crammed into new build central accommodation blocks which aren't exactly convenient for light industrial temp work out in the boonies, even though, of course, all those improvements have largely been aimed at rail passengers or people assumed to be only making short journeys by bike alone.
 

Goldfish62

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My local express runs non-stop from a transport hub to its first destination, meaning it gets there in 13 minutes compared to the 30 minutes on the stopping service.

This saving is not achieved by missing out bus stops or using bus lanes or any other priority measures, all of which are already used by all local services. It is achieved by taking an entirely different route, using high speed urban dual carriageway and other recent urban road improvements designed in the main to speed cars on their way past and around traditional bus roads.

The service is hugely popular, with savvy passengers these days using bustimes (because traffic means the timetables for both services are usually fictional at peak times) to decide that yes, it's often worth your while to wait in situ for ten minutes, rather than get on the stopper and wait even longer in transit.

I strongly suspect it only has the loads it does, not because it is serving some hugely in demand handful of destination stops at the other end like some quasi urban rapid transit, but instead once it has finished its high speed run, becomes a bog standard ordinary bus service calling at all the stops the stopper does, serving an office park, light industry, local high streets, schools, a shopping centre and housing estate roads.

Every single passenger on that service benefits, with the person at the very end of the line having saved 17 minutes, with those getting off first having miraculously more than halved their journey time.

This is a commercial bus service serving an area of ample car ownership but in a place where parking is expensive and time consuming to reach. There is also a suburban rail option that covers most of the route but which presumably is less attractive for reasons of cost and time, requiring as it does a transfer to a local bus for the last leg of any nominal equivalent journey.

The operator has clearly thought hard about where people want to go, what is important to them, and what they can achieve in an environment where the local authority is at best, ambivalent to doing anything that would help buses compete with trains or cars.

The service isn't specially branded, uses bog standard deckers, and uses the standard fare system. The hub waiting area is nothing special, with the usual charming scenes of British urbanity.

Other than the X, you might have no clue it was an amazingly useful service, as you honk your way through town in your Chelsea Tractor.

The operator is clearly making enough money to sustain a 6am to 6pm express service even though it requires three buses and their drivers, scarce resources that could be deployed on other duties, with their core urban routes always in need of anything that might help maintain impressively high frequency headways that sadly crumble at the first sign of a temporary traffic light or a forklift truck!?!? unloading a 40 tonne!??!! lorry in a mixed retail/domestic street whose loading bays, if they even exist and are legal to use at these peak times, are full 24 hours a day due to what I am sure must be Uber drivers hanging out between fares.

I somehow doubt Mayor Khaaaaan! has at his disposal what it takes to get this level of advantage for the humble bus passenger. He may even struggle to achieve this level of benefit even though in so many ways he has so many more advantages.

The very fact he seems to think branding is key, suggests not. One of the many advantages of this express service of course being that for the vast majority of passengers, they don't start their journey at that hub. They arrive there via other means, a large proportion of which come by buses operated by that very same operator, seeing this express as an integral part of the network.

There are other express routes in the network, where the same advantages can be had. They are not even remotely used to serve airports or out of town retail parks, to the point it seems like a deliberate choice on the part of the operator not to waste five minutes getting passengers closer to their doors when there is ample train/car provision. There isn't one serving the only non-central hospital (the central one being a ten minute wall from the hub), because whether by accident of local geography or good use of yellow lines, the ordinary stopper reaches the hub in 15 minutes, while also giving a seamless connection to far flung estates the other side of the hub.

And even though it's quite a busy place, as hubs tend to be, I strongly suspect that recent improvements in urban cycleways and secure cycle storage has probably increased ridership, especially for students crammed into new build central accommodation blocks which aren't exactly convenient for light industrial temp work out in the boonies, even though, of course, all those improvements have largely been aimed at rail passengers or people assumed to be only making short journeys by bike alone.
The X68 takes alternative routes between West Norwood and Waterloo depending on traffic conditions.
 

Statto

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The X68 takes alternative routes between West Norwood and Waterloo depending on traffic conditions.

Yep, quite often X68 goes through Brixton, seems that's quicker than going down the Walworth Road & through Camberwell, i quite often think if the X68 should have a stop introduced at Brixton Station, atlighting in the mornings, & boarding in the evenings, then again evening X68s are often full from Waterloo.
 

Goldfish62

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Yep, quite often X68 goes through Brixton, seems that's quicker than going down the Walworth Road & through Camberwell, i quite often think if the X68 should have a stop introduced at Brixton Station, atlighting in the mornings, & boarding in the evenings, then again evening X68s are often full from Waterloo.
Keep it as it is. Stopping at Brixton would tie it to that routing.
 

Busaholic

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Is a hypothetical X119 from Croydon to Bromley actually going to be much quicker than the current 119? Is there merit in running separate 'X119' and 'X269' routes, or would they be combined as one Croydon to Bexleyheath route?

X26 is great but it does have a significant problem on a Saturday afternoon in the Kingston area (and maybe at other times).
X119 could be much quicker by avoiding Hayes and going directly between Bromley and West Wickham: the Beckenham routeing via Shortlands formerly used by the 726 has to be discounted for various reasons e.g. compulsory single decking and the route not serving Bromley South Station. A really radical alternative would see it going via Hayes then New Addington tramstop and fast to East Croydon (ooh, the memories!!) Handy for when the tram is down. :D

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Keep it as it is. Stopping at Brixton would tie it to that routing.
The third, perhaps unofficial routeing that is sometimes used (via Railton Road at Brixton to Herne Hill) wouldn't serve a Brixton Station stop anyway: I've observed this routeing on two occasions when staying at my sister's near HH.
 
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Deerfold

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X119 could be much quicker by avoiding Hayes and going directly between Bromley and West Wickham: the Beckenham routeing via Shortlands formerly used by the 726 has to be discounted for various reasons e.g. compulsory single decking and the route not serving Bromley South Station. A really radical alternative would see it going via Hayes then New Addington tramstop and fast to East Croydon (ooh, the memories!!) Handy for when the tram is down. :D

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The third, perhaps unofficial routeing that is sometimes used (via Railton Road at Brixton to Herne Hill) wouldn't serve a Brixton Station stop anyway: I've observed this routeing on two occasions when staying at my sister's near HH.
When I was at TfL, the X68 had three routings. In an emergency it has been known to take other routes, but if it does that, it doesn't appear on Countdown screens or equivalent apps.
 

MotCO

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When I was at TfL, the X68 had three routings. In an emergency it has been known to take other routes, but if it does that, it doesn't appear on Countdown screens or equivalent apps.

Did all three routeings have to be registered?
 

Statto

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When I was at TfL, the X68 had three routings. In an emergency it has been known to take other routes, but if it does that, it doesn't appear on Countdown screens or equivalent apps.

X68 doesn't really need to appear on countdown screens, or apps, after the non stop section, as it's only stopping to set down anyway
 

Goldfish62

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X68 doesn't really need to appear on countdown screens, or apps, after the non stop section, as it's only stopping to set down anyway
Yep, pick up only Croydon to West Norwood, non-stop to Waterloo then set down only. Vice versa in the PM peak.
 

NorthKent1989

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Passengers like the idea of quicker buses that don't stop everywhere even if they aren't particularly fast in reality. I live in Brighton on the 20 mile long high frequency B&H Coaster services 12/12A/12X (Brighton - Newhaven - Eastbourne). It is noticeable how many passengers waiting at City Centre bus stops will hold back for a 12X if there's one displayed even though the time saving for the first half and busiest part of the route to Newhaven is only around 5 minutes. I've seen this behaviour in London too at Shepherd's Bush where the 207 and 607 share stops.

This is true, although not an express in the true sense of the word, both the 53 and 363 routes take the flyover upon leaving Elephant & Castle, this avoids Bricklayers Arms, the 63 and 453 routes which are the inner sections of the aforementioned routes, both serve the stops around Bricklayers Arms, this has been the case since 2017, as a way to give longer distanced passengers to Crystal Palace (363) and Plumstead (53) A slightly quicker journey, however the comical issue with this is, at Elephant & Castle you’ll often find crowds of people trying to board a 53 or 363, while letting half empty 63 or 453 buses go, the 53/363 will then leave with a full load go over the flyover only to catch up to the 63/453 routes at Old Kent Road Tescos! And the passengers who were boarding the 53/363 would often get off at New Cross, Deptford or Peckham, when the whole point of sending the 53/363 buses over the flyover is so siphon off longer distanced passengers from inner suburban passengers.
 

Busaholic

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This is true, although not an express in the true sense of the word, both the 53 and 363 routes take the flyover upon leaving Elephant & Castle, this avoids Bricklayers Arms, the 63 and 453 routes which are the inner sections of the aforementioned routes, both serve the stops around Bricklayers Arms, this has been the case since 2017, as a way to give longer distanced passengers to Crystal Palace (363) and Plumstead (53) A slightly quicker journey, however the comical issue with this is, at Elephant & Castle you’ll often find crowds of people trying to board a 53 or 363, while letting half empty 63 or 453 buses go, the 53/363 will then leave with a full load go over the flyover only to catch up to the 63/453 routes at Old Kent Road Tescos! And the passengers who were boarding the 53/363 would often get off at New Cross, Deptford or Peckham, when the whole point of sending the 53/363 buses over the flyover is so siphon off longer distanced passengers from inner suburban passengers.
And we can't even blame Artificial Intelligence! :D
 

Edsmith

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This is true, although not an express in the true sense of the word, both the 53 and 363 routes take the flyover upon leaving Elephant & Castle, this avoids Bricklayers Arms, the 63 and 453 routes which are the inner sections of the aforementioned routes, both serve the stops around Bricklayers Arms, this has been the case since 2017, as a way to give longer distanced passengers to Crystal Palace (363) and Plumstead (53) A slightly quicker journey, however the comical issue with this is, at Elephant & Castle you’ll often find crowds of people trying to board a 53 or 363, while letting half empty 63 or 453 buses go, the 53/363 will then leave with a full load go over the flyover only to catch up to the 63/453 routes at Old Kent Road Tescos! And the passengers who were boarding the 53/363 would often get off at New Cross, Deptford or Peckham, when the whole point of sending the 53/363 buses over the flyover is so siphon off longer distanced passengers from inner suburban passengers.
The reason the 53 and 363 were chosen is because they start from Lambeth North and Elephant & Castle respectively and the 63 and 453 still serve the Bricklayers Arms stops and they don't lose their existing services from Central London.

It's not really surprising that most people board the 53 and 363 at Elephant & Castle at busy times as the 63 and 453 will usually already be well loaded.

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Yep, pick up only Croydon to West Norwood, non-stop to Waterloo then set down only. Vice versa in the PM peak.
Buses pick up and set down on their final sections, from Waterloo to Russell Square am and West Norwood to West Croydon pm.
 
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Goldfish62

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Buses pick up and set down on their final sections, from Waterloo to Russell Square am and West Norwood to West Croydon pm.
OK thanks. Didn't used to be the case, so obviously changed at some stage.
 
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Deerfold

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X68 doesn't really need to appear on countdown screens, or apps, after the non stop section, as it's only stopping to set down anyway
As well as briefly being useful at the end of the route, the data's also used to calculate payments to the bus operator, so they're likely to stick to those routings.

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Did all three routeings have to be registered?
I'm not sure what you mean by "registered". They're agreed between the bus operator and TfL.
 

MotCO

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As well as briefly being useful at the end of the route, the data's also used to calculate payments to the bus operator, so they're likely to stick to those routings.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I'm not sure what you mean by "registered". They're agreed between the bus operator and TfL.

I thought that all bus routes had to be registered wih Traffic Commisssioners (and presumably TfL also acts as TC?) giving details of routes, frequencies/timetables etc.
 

Deerfold

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I thought that all bus routes had to be registered wih Traffic Commisssioners (and presumably TfL also acts as TC?) giving details of routes, frequencies/timetables etc.
TfL acts as the Traffic Commissioner, but for most routes in London including the X68, it specifies how they'll run, taking advice from operators.
 

Goldfish62

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I thought that all bus routes had to be registered wih Traffic Commisssioners (and presumably TfL also acts as TC?) giving details of routes, frequencies/timetables etc.
Only for those sections of cross-boundary routes outside London.
 

Snow1964

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There are lots of London bus changes 29th April including withdrawal of some routes

Changes in central London will affect routes 3, 6 (24 hour), 11, 16, 23 (24 hour), 26, 59, 133, 332, 507, 521, C10, N11, N16, N26 and N32.

Some minor changes will also affect the stops served by routes 17, 24, 59, 139, 176, 211, 415, N3, N53, N109 and N343 at Kennington Park Road, London Bridge, Whitehall or Waterloo.
There is a long detailed list on the following link, from which the summary above was taken

 

Scotrail88

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There are lots of London bus changes 29th April including withdrawal of some routes


There is a long detailed list on the following link, from which the summary above was taken


How does this reduce the PVR across the network?

There are some chunky reductions.
 

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