London Buses Discussion

[LUYMun]

The Superloop scheme seems to be a glorified express bus network to me. I think some potential new express routes have been left out (eg Lewisham to Orpington, Epsom to Kingston).

I think it's more important for cross-boundary trips to be funded instead of circular outer-London routes, but given TfL's attitude to boroughs outside their boundary, I doubt it would happen.

 

[pethadine82]

I would rather they make a partnership with councils outside London.
From Hounslow West you have buses going to Staines and Slough.
Royal Holloway uni doesn't have a TfL service but they could easily extend the 203 from Staines to Egham, Virginia Water and Englefield Green or even Sunningdale. Those councils are not short of money. Some of the wealthiest people have abodes in those areas, but there are people that work for these individuals who rely on public transport.

 

[Mikey C]

Those express orbital buses will still be crawling around the same inadequate road network as current buses. Missing out bus stops will feel a bit pointless if you've been crawling in the rush hour traffic for half an hour!

And in some cases they aren't that far out either. The likes of Hendon and Walthamstow are in Zone 3. Indeed Walthamstow is within the current ULEZ area.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Would the X26 be (re-)extended to Bromley? I would have thought that the Bromley to Bexleyheath link should be extended to Bluewater so that you can connect with Ensignbus' X80 to Lakeside, and link Lakeside with Ilford.

That Bromley to Bexleyheath section would presumably follow a fairly similar route to the existing 269. Take away the weird loop outbound from Bexleyheath town centre, and actually serve Bromley town centre (the 269 doesn't really, instead terminating at the slightly out-of-the-way Bromley North station), and you more or less have it. The existing 96 is frequent enough and fast enough that I'm not sure we really need an additional connection from Bexleyheath to Dartford and Bluewater.

First haven't changed any Ensign Bus routes yet, but we must expect them to do so in the coming months. If they shouild decide not to continue with the X80, would there be an argument for TfL to take it on even though it is wholly outside Greater London? After all, it connects with existing TfL services at both ends.

 

[Edsmith]

Would the X26 be (re-)extended to Bromley? I would have thought that the Bromley to Bexleyheath link should be extended to Bluewater so that you can connect with Ensignbus' X80 to Lakeside, and link Lakeside with Ilford.

Whilst I can understand the proposals, I think that it is limited to only people wanting to make a journey within each segment - it would not be attractive to make numerous changes if, for example, you wanted to travel from Ilford to Hendon. An alternative suggestion is to make Superloop one route with an hourly service, and then to help overcome congestion delays, make all the segments half-hourly. That probably does not suit TfL's 'all routes travel from end to end' mantra.


Does that mean the routes are limited stop, or do they 'make more stops' making the X26 slower?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==


I was formerly a Bromley resident. There were plans to build 30 dwellings on a council owned site but provide only 3 parking spaces for the disabled - nothing else, despite the area having yellow lines and insufficient on-street parking for existing residents. Their reason was that there were numerous local bus and train services, but that means that if you are a taxi driver, drive a tradesman's van, work unsocial hours etc, you can't live there. So no, I don't think they are anti-transit, just anti-logic.

That's happening in a lot of places now, more town centre housing with very little parking because various public transport options are on the doorstep.

 

[Thirteen]

I find it strange that the logo and the routes are reused from the TfL pantone.

 

[Busaholic]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65091373

Mayor of London launches new Superloop network:

Initial thoughts:
1)Superloop seems a rather gauche name, in view of the existence of superloos
2)It gives me the impression of something quickly thrown together in response to a frantic edict from the Mayor that he has to mollify outer London residents currently reliant on older cars, before they are effectively taxed off the road
3)The chances of any new routes by August, when the polluting vehicle ban comes in, are virtually nil unless Sullivans or someone can be persuaded to commit to a few buses for the Harrow to North Finchley route. The 140 used to run from Heathrow to Mill Hill Broadway, so could not the X140 be extended from Harrow to North Finchley?
4)The inclusion of a route to Grove Park from East London through the non-existent Silvertown Tunnel highlights the unreality of the proposals as a 'goer': similarly, quite why the peak hour, one direction only X68 is on the map is inexplicable unless we are being shown a map of all the routes which will no longer be subject to the the one flat fare rule.
5) Croydon to Bexleyheath via Bromley should be one route
6) In my view, all new routes should have two operating garages situated close to either end: if this means two different operators, so be it. Then we might really see how (a) is compared to (b)

 

[Cross City]

Must say I'm finding all this hype about the 'Superloop' bus from the London media quite funny.

Brum has had an orbital bus route for 97 years, the 11 'outer circle'.

At one point it was the longest urban bus route in Europe, not sure if it still is?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Here are my choice of routes

1: Thamesmead to Croydon
2: Bromley to Heathrow (X26)
3: Kingston to Hayes & Harlington
4: Heathrow to Harrow (X140)
5: Northolt to Arnos Grove
6: North Finchley to Ilford
7: Arnos Grove to Royal Docks

These routes aren’t designed for end to end journeys, I can’t see many people traveling from Thamesmead to Croydon all the way.

Radial Routes same as being proposed only make the X68 an all day service Mon-Fri, and extend the X239 (which should be the X108) to Bromley or even Orpington, so that it intersects with the new network.

I’d also add an X53 from Thamesmead to Elephant & Castle.

 

[johncrossley]

Brum has had an orbital bus route for 97 years, the 11 'outer circle'.

The 11 isn't limited stop, though.

 

[duncanp]

The 11 isn't limited stop, though.

And it isn't even a full circle now.

There is an Eastern half which runs Acocks Green to Perry Bar, and a Western section running Acocks Green to Erdington, thus having an overlap between Erdington and Perry Barr.

The route was split up to combat traffic delays caused by roadworks at Perry Barr, but hasn't been restored to its original format even though those roadworks have now finished.

The same problem has occurred in London over the years, with routes being split up and curtailed.

If nothing is done to regulate the traffic or give buses priority along the route of the Superloop, this project will turn out to be an expensive gimmick.

 

[Deerfold]

The X26 takes over 2hrs to travel from Croydon to Heathrow - a service that did the whole proposed Superloop route would possibly take 10-12 hours and be so unreliable as to be unworkable. A journey like Ilford to Hendon is always going to be far faster by rail even if it takes a circuitous route.

There's no suggestion that one route will cover all of this.

 

[PTR 444]

The X26 takes over 2hrs to travel from Croydon to Heathrow - a service that did the whole proposed Superloop route would possibly take 10-12 hours and be so unreliable as to be unworkable. A journey like Ilford to Hendon is always going to be far faster by rail even if it takes a circuitous route.

Not to mention that a route that long would have to be split at least 4 times anyway to comply with the European drivers hours law.

 

[Deerfold]

Not to mention that a route that long would have to be split at least 4 times anyway to comply with the European drivers hours law.

Not that it's happening, but it could be run under (former) EU rules instead with tachographs - it's just most bus companies prefer not to do that.

 

[MPW]

I wonder if these express buses could be given additional priority at junctions than existing ones have. Current signalling priorities still result in buses waiting at reds depending on timing of when they arrive at junctions and point in the cycle. Maybe they could overrule the cycle entirely to speed it up further. Drivers would be delayed but it's a limited number of routes and per hour buses as opposed to the whole tfl fleet.

Another thing I have day dreamed about is if smaller roundabouts could have signals added which turned on when an express bus approaches, so that direction was green and all others red. The rest of the time it could operate like a normal roundabout.

Point being to remove need for new physical infrastructure (eg bus lane) where there is no space for it.

 

[Fleetmaster]

Seems like the sort of daft idea that comes out of politicians designing bus networks for reasons other than what benefits passengers.

Express bus routes just don't work unless they offer *significant* journey time benefits. A route which closely shadows existing bus roads and has a lower frequency is unlikely to deliver that.

Limited stop routes drastically limit the usefulness of a bus route, so unless this comes with significant benefits, such as faster journey times or better connections, it is unlikely to attract the number of passengers it needs.

A separate branding is good, but given London has always been very reluctant to make use of this basic tool in the bus operation handbook, it suggests to me they intend to charge more for this service. I doubt people will want to pay premium prices for marginal gains.

A "superloop" could be a useful starting point for a high frequency bus rapid transit network, but it seems doubtful this is what lies behind this announcement.

Delivering this network at a useful frequency will require large numbers of buses and lots of drivers. Far better to use those costly resources on proven ways to enhance a bus network for the outer reaches - higher frequencies and more route options - especially if the goal is serving the highly trafficked hubs in the outer boroughs.

 

[Deerfold]

A separate branding is good, but given London has always been very reluctant to make use of this basic tool in the bus operation handbook, it suggests to me they intend to charge more for this service. I doubt people will want to pay premium prices for marginal gains.

All the press and the TfL website say that these will charge normal fares, including the hopper fare.

 

[Goldfish62]

Roger French, who is usually so critical about TfL (often justifiably) has done an extra Bus and Train User blog today welcoming Superloop.

TfL’s Superloop and a bus finally arrives after a five year wait.

Wednesday 29th March 2023 An unscheduled Wednesday Blog Special Mayor Sadiq Khan was out headline grabbing yesterday launching his idea for a Superloop network of limited stop express style bus rou…

busandtrainuser.com

Superloop is therefore a very welcome change of policy and at last looks as though TfL is attempting to meet what I'm sure is an untapped demand for quicker bus journey times around outer London.

On first sight I very much like the idea. However, it's absolutely essential it goes hand in hand with an extension of bus priority measures to ensure express buses really can pass unencumbered through congested junctions without prolonged red times on traffic lights. This will mean tough political choices have to be made and difficult discussions with the Borough Councils, some of which still don't really get what buses can do.

 

[DC1989]

It seems to be very much style over substance but it is a start that hopefully can be added to in future. There needs to be more express routes but I hope the loop branding doesn't prevent other routes being added that do not go in a 'loop'

I think it's incredible there's already not express route between large population centres with the current buses acting as feeders. Where I'm from in the eastern outer zones there should clearly be express buses to join town centres in Barking to Ilford, Barking to Romford, Romford to Ilford, Romford to Hornchurch, Romford to Walthamstow etc Unfortunately many outer boroughs love to piss and moan but absolutely refuse to make any new bus lanes, I remember reading Haverings latest Local Implementation Plan to TFL where they categorically refused any bus prioritisation lanes etc

 

[londonbridge]

There are plenty of car free developments in London - if you don't have a car why should the price you pay be inflated by a car parking space you don't want

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==


The X26 takes over 2hrs to travel from Croydon to Heathrow - a service that did the whole proposed Superloop route would possibly take 10-12 hours and be so unreliable as to be unworkable. A journey like Ilford to Hendon is always going to be far faster by rail even if it takes a circuitous route.

It does depend entirely on what time you get an X26. More than once I’ve got on at Carshalton High Street at 7:30am on Saturday and it gets to Hatton Cross for 8:30 where I hop an H26 down to Bedfont lakes for the parkrun. By the time I’m done and back to Hatton X for the 10:09 (or the 10:37) it can take 75-90 mins and sometimes longer, depending on how the traffic is building, to get back to Carshalton.

On one occasion I went to football in Birmingham on a Friday night, my friend drove back to Hatton in time for the last bus at midnight 37. It’s timetabled for Carshalton at 01:29 but I was back there by 01:20.

 

[Mikey C]

Just taking one part of London, shouldn't an outer London orbital network be further out. Going clockwise from Heathrow for example?

Heathrow - Hillingdon - Harrow - Edgware - Enfield - Chingford etc

 

[mb88]

That Bromley to Bexleyheath section would presumably follow a fairly similar route to the existing 269. Take away the weird loop outbound from Bexleyheath town centre, and actually serve Bromley town centre (the 269 doesn't really, instead terminating at the slightly out-of-the-way Bromley North station), and you more or less have it.

I’ve never understood why the 269 doesn’t terminate at Bromley High Street/The Mall and then loop round Ravensbourne Road/Ringer’s Road as the 126 used to (still does?) As you say it doesn’t really serve the town centre on its current route.

 

[MotCO]

Here are my choice of routes

1: Thamesmead to Croydon
2: Bromley to Heathrow (X26)
3: Kingston to Hayes & Harlington
4: Heathrow to Harrow (X140)
5: Northolt to Arnos Grove
6: North Finchley to Ilford
7: Arnos Grove to Royal Docks

I like the idea of overlapping sections, particularly if the routes are evenly spaced timewise rather than 5 minutes apart then 55 minutes.

 

[miklcct]

A journey like Ilford to Hendon is always going to be far faster by rail even if it takes a circuitous route.

I won't say that Ilford to Hendon is circuitous by rail. The North London Line doesn't deviate far from the straight line. What I think circuitous by rail is the like of Hendon - Ealing Broadway, or Hendon - New Barnet, etc.

Those express orbital buses will still be crawling around the same inadequate road network as current buses. Missing out bus stops will feel a bit pointless if you've been crawling in the rush hour traffic for half an hour!

And in some cases they aren't that far out either. The likes of Hendon and Walthamstow are in Zone 3. Indeed Walthamstow is within the current ULEZ area.

These express orbital buses should run a significant section non-stop on roads similar to North Circular at 40 mph, then it can deliver a huge advantage. Imagine a rounder along the A406 with limited stops, such a route will be very attractive.

Seems like the sort of daft idea that comes out of politicians designing bus networks for reasons other than what benefits passengers.

Express bus routes just don't work unless they offer *significant* journey time benefits. A route which closely shadows existing bus roads and has a lower frequency is unlikely to deliver that.

Limited stop routes drastically limit the usefulness of a bus route, so unless this comes with significant benefits, such as faster journey times or better connections, it is unlikely to attract the number of passengers it needs.

Bus routes which run on motorways and trunk roads non-stop between major towns without a direct railway connection will offer significant journey time benefit.

 

[JonathanH]

Is a hypothetical X119 from Croydon to Bromley actually going to be much quicker than the current 119? Is there merit in running separate 'X119' and 'X269' routes, or would they be combined as one Croydon to Bexleyheath route?

X26 is great but it does have a significant problem on a Saturday afternoon in the Kingston area (and maybe at other times).

 

[dan5324]

Having lived in Walthamstow from 1991 to 2018, I am sceptical about the "superloop" concept unless measures can be put in place to give buses priority over other traffic and make the service more reliable.

The route from Walthamstow to North Finchley duplicates the existing service 34 between Walthamstow and Arnos Grove for example. Would the new "superloop" bus be in addition to the 34, or would the 34 have to be altered or curtailed as part of this implementation?

If you have to alter or curtail existing bus routes, then that means that some people will be deprived of a service, or have to walk further to catch a bus that goes where they want to go.

I did once do a day trip round a similar route to the superloop as follows:-

• 69 : Walthamstow - Stratford
• 108 : Stratford - Lewisham
• 75 : Lewisham - Croydon
• X26 : Croydon - Kingston
• 65 : Kingston - Ealing
• 112 : Ealing - Brent Cross
• 102 : Brent Cross - Edmonton
• 34 : Edmonton - Walthamstow

Unsurprisingly it took all day because of traffic conditions, and waits for connecting buses.

But if Sadiq Khan can't introduce the required bus priority measures, he might as well not bother with this gimmick, which seems to me to be designed to placate those who are cheesed off with his ULEZ expansion.

London’s bus priority is some of the worst in the country! Which is kinda ironic considering how much the public transport network is bigged up. Bus lanes that full of parked cars or loading bays, bus lanes that are too narrow. Complete lack of bus only roads and bus priority lights (where there are two sets of lights, with the bus ones changing first for a few seconds) too many taxis clogging up bus lanes. Cycle lanes taking more room from buses. I don’t think it’ll get any better I’m afraid.

 

[Deerfold]

These express orbital buses should run a significant section non-stop on roads similar to North Circular at 40 mph, then it can deliver a huge advantage. Imagine a rounder along the A406 with limited stops, such a route will be very attractive.

That's only going to happen if the population of London is happy for thousands of properties to be demolished and billions spent on new roads.

Sounds a little like the concentric ring plan of the sixties with, I think, 6 ring roads round London.

The M25 and sections of another ring in the forms of the North and South Circulars are all that actually got built.

Bus routes which run on motorways and trunk roads non-stop between major towns without a direct railway connection will offer significant journey time benefit.

Sometimes. Sometimes the speed of the train means it can be quicker to do multiple connections.

 

[bakerstreet]

Is a hypothetical X119 from Croydon to Bromley actually going to be much quicker than the current 119? Is there merit in running separate 'X119' and 'X269' routes, or would they be combined as one Croydon to Bexleyheath route?

X26 is great but it does have a significant problem on a Saturday afternoon in the Kingston area (and maybe at other times).

There’s an X140 and a 140 operating in north west London.
Current Harrow to Northolt live times.
X140 13 mins journey time
140 19 mins journey time.

 

[Edsmith]

London’s bus priority is some of the worst in the country! Which is kinda ironic considering how much the public transport network is bigged up. Bus lanes that full of parked cars or loading bays, bus lanes that are too narrow. Complete lack of bus only roads and bus priority lights (where there are two sets of lights, with the bus ones changing first for a few seconds) too many taxis clogging up bus lanes. Cycle lanes taking more room from buses. I don’t think it’ll get any better I’m afraid.

There really isn't that much scope for bus priority in London and obviously loading bays are essential and so are cycle lanes.

 

[Sussexwatch]

Passengers like the idea of quicker buses that don't stop everywhere even if they aren't particularly fast in reality. I live in Brighton on the 20 mile long high frequency B&H Coaster services 12/12A/12X (Brighton - Newhaven - Eastbourne). It is noticeable how many passengers waiting at City Centre bus stops will hold back for a 12X if there's one displayed even though the time saving for the first half and busiest part of the route to Newhaven is only around 5 minutes. I've seen this behaviour in London too at Shepherd's Bush where the 207 and 607 share stops.