London Bridge redevelopment

[bicbasher]

London Bridge's Southern platforms will be closed on Friday 28th March between 1000-1130 as work commences to reconnect Platforms 14-15 and closing 12-13.

After 1130, only four platforms (8-11) will be in operation with services via Peckham Rye starting from South Bermondsey for the rest of the day and some evening peak services starting from New Cross Gate, East Croydon or Norwood Junction. Ticket validity for Southern customers is either London Overground to Canada Water then the Jubilee to London Bridge or TfL bus route 381 between South Bermondsey and London Bridge.

More details are on the Southern website.

 

[mister-sparky]

Are there still plans for "Thameslink" to Kent in the peaks only? As it was proposed to have Tunbridge Wells and Ashford via Orpington as a couple of peak services only.

 

[IrishDave]

London Bridge's Southern platforms will be closed on Friday 28th March between 1000-1130 as work commences to reconnect Platforms 14-15 and closing 12-13.

After 1130, only four platforms (8-11) will be in operation with services via Peckham Rye starting from South Bermondsey for the rest of the day and some evening peak services starting from New Cross Gate, East Croydon or Norwood Junction. Ticket validity for Southern customers is either London Overground to Canada Water then the Jubilee to London Bridge or TfL bus route 381 between South Bermondsey and London Bridge.

More details are on the Southern website.

Very interesting; this page on Southern's website gives full details.

There are already planned engineering works for the weekend 29th/30th March on NRE's website, but nothing for Friday 28th, nor do any of these changes seem to appear on RealTimeTrains. It seems rather unusual to have engineering works on a Friday (and not even Good Friday at that!) at this short notice - and it certainly isn't the 12 weeks in advance that (in theory) all engineering work should be announced.

Is this perhaps the result of the engineers saying "we're a bit behind and we need an extra day"?
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Are there still plans for "Thameslink" to Kent in the peaks only? As it was proposed to have Tunbridge Wells and Ashford via Orpington as a couple of peak services only.

I believe not; since the DfT intervened to ensure the Wimbledon loop continued to have its current level of service through the Thameslink core (and not terminating at Blackfriars) I think the planned service pattern has been tweaked so that all the trains going through London Bridge will continue towards East Croydon on the Sussex side, and Kent will only get Thameslink trains via the Catford loop (not via London Bridge).

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there still plans for "Thameslink" to Kent in the peaks only? As it was proposed to have Tunbridge Wells and Ashford via Orpington as a couple of peak services only.

The plans were completely altered by a DfT announcement in Jan 2013, as I hoped to have explained back in post #18 on page 2.

The only services from the Southeastern area of the network will be an all day 2 tph from Sevenoaks, and a peak only 2 tph service from Maidstone; both via Elephant and Castle.

The 'ex Southeastern' routes have therefore definitely been reduced from the expected 10 tph to 4 tph total, and there will be no extensions to Ashford or Tunbridge Wells etc. As a couple of us discussed slightly, it is thought that DfT basically caved in to a persistent campaign from the Wimbledon loop users - and therefore, (at least in my opinion), there could probably have been 4 more services running off the 'Southeastern' part of the network, but it's too late now.

The DfT's original explanation is here:

Under the new proposals 8 Thameslink trains will run per hour via Elephant and Castle, including the 4 Wimbledon Loop trains, 2 from Sevenoaks via Bromley South and Catford, and 2 (peak only) from Maidstone East via Bromley South.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-safeguards-future-of-the-wimbledon-loop

Just to round it off, I'll repeat that the other 16 tph (of the 24 tph total through the Thameslink core), all come off 'Southern' via East Croydon.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just to round it off, I'll repeat that the other 16 tph (of the 24 tph total through the Thameslink core), all come off 'Southern' via East Croydon.

All probably via East Croydon. That depends on what the franchise bidders propose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is this perhaps the result of the engineers saying "we're a bit behind and we need an extra day"?

Not quite. It was following the detailed risk assessments, which showed the work would overrun on the Monday morning. So there's three choices: overrun into Monday, start earlier on Friday, or find another 3 day slot that maintains the programme without conflicting with anything else.

Friday won.

 

[swt_passenger]

All probably via East Croydon. That depends on what the franchise bidders propose.

Point taken - I suppose I should have said 16 tph via Norwood Junction.
I guess the highest probability is still that they'll all come through East Croydon though...

 

[mister-sparky]

But then again, they've got 4 years to tweak and re-tweak and re-propose service patterns. Just because something's "proposed" now doesn't mean that it's set in concrete.

 

[swt_passenger]

But then again, they've got 4 years to tweak and re-tweak and re-propose service patterns. Just because something's "proposed" now doesn't mean that it's set in concrete.

It isn't a 'proposal' as such. They've been out to public consultation, and the responses have been considered and the decisions published - in the 'stakeholder briefing and consultation response' published with the TSGN ITT:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...meslink-southern-and-great-northern-franchise

I doubt very much if there'll be another significant change now - otherwise what's the point of the 2012-2013 consultation procedures?

 

[Deepgreen]

Thank you all for this information.

Will any of this development relieve the current conflict of FCC services having to cross over from the Southern side to SE and then again to cross over the down lines from Charring Cross in order to access Blackfriars.

It seems strange that some additional provision wasn't made to enable FCC services to use the flyover at New Cross Gate currently used by London Overground and a spur on to the SE lines out of New Cross or will that happen at some stage.

It will be interesting to see how FCC cope during the period when they will not be able to access London Bridge at all and will presumably approach from Elephant and Castle. A significant extension to journey times I imagine.

The London Overground flyover leads to and from the slow lines only at New Cross Gate, so the FCC service would still need to cross between fast and slow lines in each direction, and no conflicts would be saved.

 

[cle]

Might somebody still propose to isolate the Wimbledon loop in favour of the Denmark Hill line (and more via LDB)?

 

[swt_passenger]

Might somebody still propose to isolate the Wimbledon loop in favour of the Denmark Hill line (and more via LDB)?

I can't see why or how, there's no more planned public consultations on broad service patterns, and the applicant franchisees have been left to put the detail into the timetable. (Unless they do something different beyond 2018.)

In various earlier RUSs NR had always explained that the loop service couldn't run through the core because of the flat crossings.

Then as explained last year by an insider posting in these forums, Class377/5, that has been found not to be the case, hence DfT making the decision they have. So where's the pressure coming from to get DfT to stand on their head again?

 

[Class377/5]

The pressure for the Wimbledon Loop has come from the passengers themselves who have organised a campaign and got the local press and MPs on side to push for it. As people ho have been through the Thameslink Programme and been paying for the service then why should they not get their wish over a new service? They have stated quite clearly that they want to have through trains and in great numbers.

The only reason it was proposed to cut the services back at Blackfriars was a desire to keep things simple rather than it was impossible as SWT states I've been talking about. All it does is increase risk but the amount of crossing moves from having Loop services is around the same as we will have the December 2014 timetable change and isn't affected by the increase in train numbers from the Core due to amount being same, just different services through Elephant southwards. Don't forget that post 2018 Southeastern will once again be running services into Blackfriars bays.

As for the new 'franchise' TSGN, well its not a true franchise but a management contract. Whoever wins it will do what the DfT/SOS of state wants. Suggestions the winning bidder will change the confirmed service patterns is just not reality. Its a bit like saying LOROL will rewrite the Overground timetable without TfL's permission. Same set up with Overground and DLR as TSGN will have.

For the record Network Rail has built a working draft 2018 timetable. Its not pretty and it alters things (not just Thameslink either). Even they know its not right and requires some adjustments that the bidders have to presented in their bids for TSGN. Some of which was set in stone, other parts allowed to be created by the bidders. What is true is that the 2018 final timetable is going to be a industry solution with multiple parties having played a part in its creation.

Just wait and see. There may still be some surprises to come including some things that were believed set in stone (but weren't) but changed (look at the 6x 319s leaving Thameslink for proof of this).

 

[bicbasher]

Some early morning amendments for Monday 31st March.

1. 05 36 London Bridge to Sutton – will be cancelled throughout.
2. 06 00 London Bridge to Wimbledon - will start from South Bermondsey at 06 00.
3. 06 10 London Bridge to West Croydon – will be cancelled throughout.
4. 06 18 London Bridge to Victoria – will be cancelled throughout.
5. 06 15 Sutton to Victoria - will start 06 31 from Selhurst.
6. 06 32 Sutton to London Bridge - will start 06 50 from Norwood Junction.
7. 07 01 West Croydon to London Bridge - will start 07 05 from Selhurst.
8. 07 17 Victoria to London Bridge - will start 07 32 from Streatham Hill.
9. 06 54 Victoria to East Grinstead - will start 07 11 from East Croydon.

 

[Bald Rick]

The amendments for Fri 28 March are in too.

 

[Minstral25]

Closures have started - has anyone any updates on new platforms - pictures etc

 

[Y186520]

Picture posted on Southern twitter today



SouthernRailUK ‏@SouthernRailUK 3 hrs

RT @redhillrail: RT@BBCTomEdwards: New platforms being built more info @TLProgramme pic.twitter.com/FM4iu6v9kB

 

[neilm]

Still not open, just checked now. It appears that they are making 11 - 12 safe so they can work on them. Still finishing off 13 - 14, I guess they will not be used until next week.

 

[carriageline]

Next Monday "something" is meant to be opening, didn't really read it much to be honest!!

 

[Clip]

Im down Norwood way next week staying with some friends so it looks like th LO will be busier than normal then.

 

[swt_passenger]

Still not open, just checked now. It appears that they are making 11 - 12 safe so they can work on them. Still finishing off 13 - 14, I guess they will not be used until next week.

I'm 99% sure that's exactly what's always been planned, based on earlier posts in this thread, and the various stuff on Southern's and the Thameslink programmes's websites.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm 99% sure that's exactly what's always been planned, based on earlier posts in this thread, and the various stuff on Southern's and the Thameslink programmes's websites.

Indeed. Southern have cut back services as today they only had four platforms. New platforms will open Monday.

 

[Bald Rick]

Platforms 12 and 13 closed today at 1010. The new platforms 14 & 15 open on Monday.

The old platforms 8-11 will remain in use until 22 August when 10&11 close, with the low level station closed for 9 days until 1 September; when it reopens the new 12&13 will open also. The rest of the low level is done in a 16 day block over Christmas / New Year.

 

[bicbasher]

The cross platform footbridge will also shrink, with access only from 1-10.

Passengers from Platform 11, 14 and 15 will have to walk as far as the gateline, then walk up the 9-10 platforms to reach the footbridge.

Oyster users have the option of using the OSI to reach the Southeastern platforms.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Platforms 12 and 13 closed today at 1010. The new platforms 14 & 15 open on Monday.

The old platforms 8-11 will remain in use until 22 August when 10&11 close, with the low level station closed for 9 days until 1 September; when it reopens the new 12&13 will open also. The rest of the low level is done in a 16 day block over Christmas / New Year.

I was fully expecting chaos at London Bridge on the Southern side, however it seemed to be ok, any problems appeared to be knock on issues from a broken down freight train earlier at South Croydon.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was fully expecting chaos at London Bridge on the Southern side, however it seemed to be ok, any problems appeared to be knock on issues from a broken down freight train earlier at South Croydon.

Well it was planned meticulously, subject to a number of readiness reviews, and then overseen by an excellent command and control structure.

Just need to see it through to Monday morning?..

 

[DY444]

It's all gone pear shaped this morning though

 

[SimonS]

Well it was planned meticulously, subject to a number of readiness reviews, and then overseen by an excellent command and control structure.

Just need to see it through to Monday morning?..

Oh dear. Obviously a different Network Fail command centre to the one who oversaw today's overrunning engineering works near Three Bridges.

Whilst sat at a standstill I read the piece in the paper explaining Network Fail were about to be fined £70m for poor network availability over the last year. All a charade obviously as the bill is ultimately footed by the taxpayer.

 

[carriageline]

Overrunning engineering world are often completely unavoidable, sometimes it either you overrun the works, or you pack up and do it again another day

 

[YorkshireBear]

Oh dear. Obviously a different Network Fail command centre to the one who oversaw today's overrunning engineering works near Three Bridges.

Whilst sat at a standstill I read the piece in the paper explaining Network Fail were about to be fined £70m for poor network availability over the last year. All a charade obviously as the bill is ultimately footed by the taxpayer.

I am sure your post is worth reading but using Network Fail makes me ignore everything you have to say.

 

[SimonS]

I am sure your post is worth reading but using Network Fail makes me ignore everything you have to say.

Sorry about that, just highlighting that according to City AM they are about to be fined £70m as they have FAILED to deliver an acceptable level of service to the rail companies.

It does get a bit boring when this happens with monotonous regularity - barely a week goes by without the Brighton-Bedford route being affected by overhead line problems, power supply problems, engineering overrunning, lining of the Balcombe Tunnel collapsing etc.