London Bridge reconstruction works

[Ianno87]

I'm not a train driver, but to me a simple example of the need for learning is this: if a driver sees a yellow signal, he knows he needs to stop his train before the next signal. But that information is useless unless he knows the braking performance of the train (traction knowledge and experience) and the location of that next signal (route knowledge).

Not just the signal location, but the characteristics of the line up to the next signal. For example, the future Thameslink lines through London Bridge have quite an appreciable climb/fall up and over the Bermondsey dive-under.

And with 11 parallel tracks (thus parallel signals), a clear indication of which signals do and do not apply to them, and what route indications mean for the multitude of possibilities available.

 

[Barn]

Not just the signal location, but the characteristics of the line up to the next signal. For example, the future Thameslink lines through London Bridge have quite an appreciable climb/fall up and over the Bermondsey dive-under.

And with 11 parallel tracks (thus parallel signals), a clear indication of which signals do and do not apply to them, and what route indications mean for the multitude of possibilities available.

Of course - that was only intended as one example of many.

 

[Geogregor]

I took some photos of the station, let me try to post it here:

DSC05632 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05633 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05636 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05639 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05640 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05642 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05643 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05644 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05646 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05647 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I have more, I'm not sure if it is the best place to post them

 

[jon0844]

Really nice. And people will still moan that they can't see where their train fare money goes.

 

[InOban]

I can certainly see where my taxes have gone...

And with reference to the previous posts, they're the best arguments I've seen recently for in-cab signalling, not to mention ATO!

 

[otomous]

Absolutely, automation would be safer and more efficient, but who wants to pay for it? Huge one off costs with a long long period of return versus relatively lower costs year on year. We can’t even see through an electrification programme much beyond one trunk route every 20 odd years. And in cab signalling and traffic management systems are slipping again. I don’t believe there’s been any real push to retro fit old lines anywhere in the world, presumably due to the costs involved. Of course once an easier solution presents itself...

 

[ijmad]

I took some photos of the station, let me try to post it here:

I have more, I'm not sure if it is the best place to post them

Very nice. Had a look at your full set on Flickr too!

 

[Geogregor]

If someone thinks that driving train is easy should look at this track layout:

DSC05704 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05706 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05764 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05766 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05781 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05782 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05783 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05786 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05789 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

 

[GW43125]

The read-through/misread potential on that is enormous. Someone's going to fall victim to it eventually.

 

[GodAtum]

is the RV1 now stopping on Tooley Street?

 

[Bromley boy]

The read-through/misread potential on that is enormous. Someone's going to fall victim to it eventually.

Indeed.

Those pictures certainly put the stupidity of some of the previous comments on this thread into perspective.

 

[GW43125]

Indeed.

Those pictures certainly put the stupidity of some of the previous comments on this thread into perspective.

Some of these people ought to try a computer-based simulator. I had a go on the 450 simulator at Basingstoke (I'm not a driver, just for the record),and was only saved from station overruns by emergency braking, on more than one occasion. They gave me fog. If I hadn't had the instructor constantly telling me what to do, I'd have been utterly hopeless. On other simulators I've had SPADs at about 60 mph from a misread; proving that if you don't know what you're doing, you don't stand a chance.

 

[FOH]

How come the designers saw fit to give platform 1 an enormous lift for a single platform whereas 6 platforms 10-15 have to put up with a single lift of the same size?

 

[Bromley boy]

How come the designers saw fit to give platform 1 an enormous lift for a single platform whereas 6 platforms 10-15 have to put up with a single lift of the same size?

Presumably because p1 is entirely seperate from the rest, which are island platforms, and can therefore share a lift.

 

[ijmad]

How come the designers saw fit to give platform 1 an enormous lift for a single platform whereas 6 platforms 10-15 have to put up with a single lift of the same size?

As discussed earlier in the thread, it seems like the large 'STAFF ONLY' lift on the P11/12 island was originally supposed to be a passenger lift, and is shown as such on the blueprints, but they changed their mind for some reason during the build. I guess you can also use the lift on the unticketed side by the stairs/escalators up to the ticket office to get to the Terminal platforms too, and technically you could walk out on to St Thomas St and use the lift by the Shard stairs likewise. I don't see that much lift traffic when I pass through the station though, so it seems like the lifts are coping with demand in their current configuration - but as Bromley boy says, they had no choice with the island through platforms, gotta have one lift per island otherwise it's not accessible at all.

 

[InOban]

The read-through/misread potential on that is enormous. Someone's going to fall victim to it eventually.

I quite agree. Hence the need for ATO.

Is well established that humans get confused by too much information. The same happens on streets with too many road signs.

 

[Bromley boy]

I quite agree. Hence the need for ATO.

Is well established that humans get confused by too much information. The same happens on streets with too many road signs.

Eh? Upthread you seemed to compare train driving with truck driving. I’ll keep the “need for ATO” in mind on Monday when I drive the route.... I’m glad to have the benefit of your expertise.

Any excuse to bash those awful drivers, eh.

 

[bramling]

I quite agree. Hence the need for ATO.

Is well established that humans get confused by too much information. The same happens on streets with too many road signs.

And when the ATO fails, the human comes back to the fore.

I’m glad the layout is protected by TPWS, however it’s no worse than some of the semaphore setups seen at complex locations in past years. Good training is the key.

 

[ijmad]

The read-through/misread potential on that is enormous. Someone's going to fall victim to it eventually.

Is it any more complicated than other large station throats with curved approaches? E.g. Waterloo?

 

[jnjkerbin]

is the RV1 now stopping on Tooley Street?

Looks like it's running via Tooley Street in the Covent Garden direction but over London Bridge and via East Cheap in the Tower Gateway direction "until May 2018" according to TfL.

 

[ComUtoR]

The read-through/misread potential on that is enormous. Someone's going to fall victim to it eventually.

Something I mentioned up thread.. many pages back. Its a total nightmare. However....

Is it any more complicated than other large station throats with curved approaches? E.g. Waterloo?

Leaving the station on the down is pretty simple. Most of those signals you can filter out and almost everything takes you where you need. At North Kent East and through the Kent fast is where you need to focus. Even then, the stopping pattern makes your life easy. On the approach to London Bridge and knowing the ifs and buts is the nightmare. We are having a small issue at the moment with how its being signaled :/

I quite agree. Hence the need for ATO.

Is well established that humans get confused by too much information. The same happens on streets with too many road signs.

LOL, your such a troll its beginning to be funny. Are you aware of how ATO interacts with the dumb human up in the pointy bit ? ATO does not remove the human.

 

[InOban]

Eh? Upthread you seemed to compare train driving with truck driving. I’ll keep the “need for ATO” in mind on Monday when I drive the route.... I’m glad to have the benefit of your expertise.

Any excuse to bash those awful drivers, eh.

On the contrary I am full of admiration for the skills you are required to, and do, demonstrate every day. I only question whether with currently available, not to mention future, technology you should continue to have to deliver in this way. But as another poster has said , the cost of installing such equipment makes it cheaper to keep you for the foreseeable future. I am sure that the new layout will soon become second nature.

 

[tsr]

As discussed earlier in the thread, it seems like the large 'STAFF ONLY' lift on the P11/12 island was originally supposed to be a passenger lift, and is shown as such on the blueprints, but they changed their mind for some reason during the build.

There needs to be step-free access for anybody who has mobility issues and works on the internal mezzanine floor where the station offices are.

In addition, the staff lift provides extra flexibility for staff needing to reach the London end of trains on Platforms 10-12. It takes a surprising amount of time to move around the station if any one of the entrances/exits to the staff accommodation is out of use, which in turn can delay trains.

 

[jon0844]

If someone thinks that driving train is easy should look at this track layout:

DSC05704 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05706 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05764 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05766 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05781 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05782 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05783 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05786 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05789 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I assume you just take power, close your eyes and see where you end up down the line. If the train stops suddenly, you failed. Game over.

 

[Chrisgr31]

How come the designers saw fit to give platform 1 an enormous lift for a single platform whereas 6 platforms 10-15 have to put up with a single lift of the same size?

You can say the same thing about escalators. The Island platforms get two pairs so 2 up 2 down at any time. The terminus ones get a single one.

 

[FOH]

You can say the same thing about escalators. The Island platforms get two pairs so 2 up 2 down at any time. The terminus ones get a single one.

Yes, in fact my wife used the lift today and apparently there was a discussion amongst those in it that the high level platforms have an unfair level of facilities

 

[ijmad]

There needs to be step-free access for anybody who has mobility issues and works on the internal mezzanine floor where the station offices are.

In addition, the staff lift provides extra flexibility for staff needing to reach the London end of trains on Platforms 10-12. It takes a surprising amount of time to move around the station if any one of the entrances/exits to the staff accommodation is out of use, which in turn can delay trains.

Absolutely do understand the need for accessibility, but not sure why this wasn't thought of in the original plans. Plus, it does seem like it could be achieved with a staff pass system that would permit the doors to open to the offices only if a member of staff or driver is in the lift, or instead by having another small lift just to the mezzanine inside the office block itself (it would only need to go between G and 1 to provide full access as mobility impaired staff could still go down from the platform level in the passenger lifts). But it is what it is.

 

[ijmad]

You can say the same thing about escalators. The Island platforms get two pairs so 2 up 2 down at any time. The terminus ones get a single one.

I do agree, although many of the passengers in the front half of a terminating train would surely walk off the platform through the gates to the Shard concourse, which is a lot of extra capacity. Plus also, clearing a through platform quickly is surely much more important, since you don't want a crowd deep enough to be on the wrong side of the yellow line when the train starts to move 30 seconds after passengers disembark. On a terminal platform, at 20tph across six platforms, you've got a good 5-6 minutes to clear the crowd before the train needs to move out again.

 

[takno]

Yes, in fact my wife used the lift today and apparently there was a discussion amongst those in it that the high level platforms have an unfair level of facilities

I've only ever used the lower concourse from the terminating platforms when I'm changing onto a Charing Cross train. If you're heading for the tube it's much faster to head out through the end, straight through the doors, across the road and down the escalators into the shopping arcade. Obviously there aren't a lot of shops in the upstairs concourse but judging by the hoardings that is going to change at some point.

 

[ijmad]

I've only ever used the lower concourse from the terminating platforms when I'm changing onto a Charing Cross train. If you're heading for the tube it's much faster to head out through the end, straight through the doors, across the road and down the escalators into the shopping arcade. Obviously there aren't a lot of shops in the upstairs concourse but judging by the hoardings that is going to change at some point.

Not a useful route if you can't manage escalators (mobility, luggage, pushchair).