Not ATO yet. That's coming next year now.
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London Bridge reconstruction works
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Not ATO yet. That's coming next year now.
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Bromley boy
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Not provocative, but something of a silly question which belies a lack of understanding and possibly a certain bias. A little bit like when you compared drivers’ salaries/T’s and C’s to the admin staff working in your local town hall...
The ATO isn’t coming in immediately and even when it does it doesn’t mean there’s no requirement for route knowledge:
1. it is intended to be augmented by manual driving on POSA signals when necessary;
2. drivers will still need decent route knowledge in the event of anything out of course happening leading to an evacuation etc. (particularly as all TL services are fully DOO).
It was always the public plan to have Thameslink through services from January hence why we had such a debate a few months ago when we first learned that management had decided to derisk (chickened out) the plan. Push the opening by 5 months and the full implementation (already watered down by abandoning Caterham) by 12 months.
They were still able to say project complete yesterday and hide behind platforms opening, albeit without trains calling at them.
They were still able to say project complete yesterday and hide behind platforms opening, albeit without trains calling at them.
Sunset route
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A question at work regarding how and when do we know when to start signalling trains back via London Bridge resulted in the answer.
That in about 7 to 8 weeks time when enough driver instructors have learnt the route back via London Bridge, they start the actual driver training and schedules will be called the night before and the train running numbers will alter from xWxx to xTxx as so us signallers know which way to send the trains.
Also subject to driver knowledge once learning has started, control will have the option to route xWxx via London Bridge as service recovery as that route is quicker. But as what already has been said many times, the trains won’t be booked to call at London Bridge until the May timetable change.
That in about 7 to 8 weeks time when enough driver instructors have learnt the route back via London Bridge, they start the actual driver training and schedules will be called the night before and the train running numbers will alter from xWxx to xTxx as so us signallers know which way to send the trains.
Also subject to driver knowledge once learning has started, control will have the option to route xWxx via London Bridge as service recovery as that route is quicker. But as what already has been said many times, the trains won’t be booked to call at London Bridge until the May timetable change.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
What is this about "learning" the route? It is not as if a brand new route has just been created and nobody knows anything about it. Why is everyone acting like they have forgotten how to drive and signal the route?
Surely all of the drivers and signallers who used to drive and signal it haven't all changed jobs since the Thamelink programme started :-/
To make us all wait 4 months is absolutely ridiculous. The new tracks at London Bridge are collecting dust whilst the trains continue to take up valuable paths via Herne Hill.
Surely all of the drivers and signallers who used to drive and signal it haven't all changed jobs since the Thamelink programme started :-/
To make us all wait 4 months is absolutely ridiculous. The new tracks at London Bridge are collecting dust whilst the trains continue to take up valuable paths via Herne Hill.
Are you saying the speed limits, track layout, signal positions etc are unchanged?
https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/oodocs/ATOCACOP007 Iss 1.pdf
and even if they were, a refresher would still be required!
http://www.traindriver.org/route-learning.html
And yes I am sure there are also a lot of new drivers. GTR are going to be running many more trains through the core than ever before. Even if the existing drivers had all stayed, that's a lot of new drivers. And some of the existing ones may have transferred to other companies or to other routes within the company.
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Thanks for the laughs
I’m not sure if you are being genuine or if you’re just a troll now.. for starters there will be a huge number of drivers who will have never driven the old route, so even if your rather ridiculous proposal of just sending them down there as “they already know it” was possible plenty will have never have been in the first place..!
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Sunset route
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*****
The track layout and signalling has *completely* changed over several miles from Blackfriars Jn to Bricklayers Arms, which no Thameslink driver has driven for 3 full years. So to all intents and purposes, yes it is a brand new railway.
Bromley boy
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Another wilfully ignorant comment. So now you think driving a truck is the same as driving a train?
You’ve either got an axe to grind or you’re simply trolling.
fusionblue
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Now that London Bridge is (for all intents) finished, can someone explain why Elephant & Castle was completely ignored beyond a lick of paint?
It's the only TL station in zone 1 not to receive an upgrade of any sort, so its pretty hard to trumpet "improvements for all!" when that station is still a mess.
It's the only TL station in zone 1 not to receive an upgrade of any sort, so its pretty hard to trumpet "improvements for all!" when that station is still a mess.
Not true. traindriver.org is a totally unreliable source. Not something I would use when posting about official policy, rules, and procedures.
tsr
Established Member
True at certain TOCs, with regards to routes. Traction appears to have a 12 month interval.
Elephant & Castle is being redeveloped with loads of new homes, doing up the shopping centre and a new entrance for the Northern Line. I expect that any upgrades to the main line station will be tied to that.
a_c_skinner
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This may be off topic but
I honestly thought (trainspotter here) that you could only drive routes you had learned by driving them and that route knowledge went stale after a certain time.
I honestly thought (trainspotter here) that you could only drive routes you had learned by driving them and that route knowledge went stale after a certain time.
It is much more complicated. Each TOC must set out their own criteria and have a CMS (competence management system) in place to manage a Drivers routes and traction. There must also be some form of system in place for route training and refreshing, also governed by the TOC safety and standards. There are various standards and guidelines that must be considered.
My route knowledge doesn't automatically expire after 6 months of not driving a route. I could also remove a route from my route card within any period if I didn't believe I was competent to go over it. Again, that is something governed by the TOCs internal standards.
New routes can be briefed out and trained using videos and other training aids. Again, you never have to sign the route as competent unless you feel that you are.
Each route must be re-certified on an annual basis which is required by Group Standards.
There is much more to it and indeed, off topic
Hope that helps.
How about you ask train drivers on here (i am one of them) who know about this sort of thing?
Same as above...why not ask the drivers on here before making assumptions.
As time goes on more and more trains will run via London Bridge instead of Herne Hill based on the amount of route knowledge has been completed. You cannot train 400 drivers all in one hit. There are two sets of timings in the timetable database for each train, currently...one via Herne Hill and one via London Bridge .
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
That's not at all comparable because roads are designed to be driven on on a line-of-sight basis - which is why there are normally no problems with driving along a road that you've never driven along before. My understanding (I'm not a train driver so hope I'm correct) is that railways are not designed to be driven line-of-sight: When driving a train, you often have to take actions because of things you are approaching that you can't yet see - for example, slowing down for a station long before the station is visible. For that reason you can't drive a train along a route unless you know the route - hence the need for Thameslink drivers to be (re)trained before they can take trains on the new route through London Bridge
Daz28
Member
Major disruption on Southeastern today as a result of 1 of the lines through Grove Park being out of action, some flooding earlier at Kidbrooke, passenger taken ill at Lewisham and signal problems at the outer reaches of the network. Anyone been at London Bridge today who can report on how the station coped?
The difference between the stopping distances for a truck and a fully ladened freight train both doing 60mph is huge. Odd that the person who posted that point didnt consider this factor
I quite agree that the inability of a train to do an emergency stop requires anticipatory driving skills of the highest order. It is for this reason that the driver is increasingly supported by technology, first by AWS and now by TPWS, and by advanced warning notices before TSRs.
And I admire the ability of metro trains to bring their train to a halt at the correct point on the platform in variable adhesion conditions.
However a truck driver requires skills which, I would suggest, are not core to a train driver, because they have to be continuously aware of the unpredictable behaviour of all the other road users in front, beside and even behind them. I will leave it to specialists in job evaluation to rate them.
And I admire the ability of metro trains to bring their train to a halt at the correct point on the platform in variable adhesion conditions.
However a truck driver requires skills which, I would suggest, are not core to a train driver, because they have to be continuously aware of the unpredictable behaviour of all the other road users in front, beside and even behind them. I will leave it to specialists in job evaluation to rate them.
I think you might have missed the point. It's not really about emergency stops. An emergency stop on the railway and the road are entirely different. When you are driving a car and see someone turning right from a left hand turn, you anticipate they may keep going forcing you to slow or stop. They may be a hiding a biker turning left. You might see someone step off the pavement suddenly or kids running about with a ball. You drive accordingly. This is why there are lower speed limits where there is more interaction between road users. On the railway the trains don't share spaces like that. The nearest equivalent is someone falling off a platform, jumping off a bridge or going straight across a foot crossing without looking. You are far less likely to be able to stop. You don't EXPECT to be able to stop. So anticipation is not the same concept on the rails. Route knowledge is there so that you can drive to the conditions. If you have a red signal coming up but you know you will not reach it until after your next station stop you drive differently to if you are a fast train. If that signal is at your next stop, you are less likely to forget that it is red because you will see it when you get there. If your next stop has no signal then your red is still ahead. You have to KNOW that, you have to REMEMBER that when you set off again, and not let the station stop in between distract you from that fact. Your approach is more cautious - but that is because you have that route knowledge. We refer to "defensive driving" in which you are ready to act by being aware of what could happen along the route - a sudden deterioration of railhead conditions, a wrong route being offered, a station stop that is now invisible because of fog. Route knowledge is absolutely key to driving a train - far more I would say than handling a train because to some extent they have more in common than the actual routes - it is all encompassing because you have to be keyed up to it in the normal course of things when nothing is happening AND when degraded conditions occur - might the signaller send me a different way, I've never stopped at the next signal before and I know it's a tricky one because it's downhill to it, I'm going in an unusual platform so the doors are on the other side now. I think from the outside it's easy to think that all bits of railway look the same - easy to think because you don't "read" them as a driver does. So if anything changes, however small, every driver must know before he goes over it again.
As for technology - not to a great extent really. Knowing where there is AWS and TPWS is part of the knowledge. You might use a magnet or a grid as a braking point but that is an individual thing, it's not an aid to knowledge as such. TSRs need advance warning because it's possible that the driver will not know about them, and most likely won't know exactly where they are until he's seen them once - and this is one of the changes I talked about above. The driver doesn't necessarily get a warning of PSR changes because he is expected to know it - nice to have, but can't be relied on. There is the DRA to cope with the stations without a signal as described above - but without the knowledge it is useless - you have to know WHY you are setting and resetting it.
carriageline
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I did have a laugh regarding signallers/drivers not needing training...
Take London Bridge on it’s own. The whole station operates differently to how it used to. Plus there is tons of new quirks and new technologies. Some people really have no idea, yet spout on about things like they do!!
If you don’t know, ask!
Take London Bridge on it’s own. The whole station operates differently to how it used to. Plus there is tons of new quirks and new technologies. Some people really have no idea, yet spout on about things like they do!!
If you don’t know, ask!
Truck Drivers drive vehicles that are designed to be driven on sight, with safe driving defined as being able to stop within the distance you can see (many road vehicle drivers don't do this of course). As well as braking they have the option of steering around hazards (where this would be safe)
Trains operate beyond line of sight and cannot be steered by the driver.
I'm not a train driver, but to me a simple example of the need for learning is this: if a driver sees a yellow signal, he knows he needs to stop his train before the next signal. But that information is useless unless he knows the braking performance of the train (traction knowledge and experience) and the location of that next signal (route knowledge).
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