Loco changes en-route

[PHILIPE]

These were South Coast trains that had come from Derby direction and vice versa where the locos ran round. Voyagers were introduced in early 2002.

 

[D1009]

In the steam era, loco change locations were also related to fuel / water capacity, even if no reversal was involved.

ECML used Peterborough, Grantham, Doncaster, York & Newcastle for some locos changes (no more than one or two changes on any service.

Loco changes on the ECML continued into the diesel era due to the relatively low fuel range of the Deltics. Kings Cross to Aberdeen services normally changed engines at Edinburgh, as Aberdeen was slightly over the planned maximum, though they did work through if there were loco shortages. On Saturday nights if diversions via Carlisle were on, locos were normally changed at Newcastle for the same reason.

 

[87015]

These were South Coast trains that had come from Derby direction and vice versa where the locos ran round. Voyagers were introduced in early 2002.

But those services were almost all HSTs rather than hauled. They certainly didn't fall into the regular workings year in, year out pre-Voyagers.

The excellent "Sulzerpower" website contains 1999 VTXC/WC 47/8 diagrams here which give a good picture of what was planned to happen
http://sulzerpower.com/diagramSummer99.html

 

[fowler9]

My memory of services from Liverpool to the South Coast passing through New Street serves me differently.They could seemingly arrive and depart from either end of New Street to an extent.

 

[PHILIPE]

But those services were almost all HSTs rather than hauled. They certainly didn't fall into the regular workings year in, year out pre-Voyagers.

The excellent "Sulzerpower" website contains 1999 VTXC/WC 47/8 diagrams here which give a good picture of what was planned to happen
http://sulzerpower.com/diagramSummer99.html

I could be mistaken with my dates but probably towards the end of LHCS on this route. When I estimated the time I was thinking it was based on a personal event in my life and when that happened

 

[billh]

And there were steam to electric changes at Sheffield Victoria after Woodhead was electrified.

At Guide Bridge too. There was a special short loco siding built into the eastern end of platforms 2/3 where an EM2 or steam heat(!) EM1 would wait for the incoming steam hauled. I don't know when that siding was removed but there is no trace now. Similarly in the other direction, the electric was unhooked and ran forward over the crossover to the slow lines at Stockport Junction. The steam loco, B1 or 2-6-4 tank, would be waiting on the Denton line by Cock Lane 'Box and drop onto the train to Manchester Central or Liverpool.

 

[70014IronDuke]

slightly surprised by this thread content, in that 95% of the examples are (or were) enforced by change of traction source (eg electric to steam or diesel) or direction, rather than 'purely' operational.

OK, that's not very clear, best to give an example - take the classical XC trains of yore - The Bournemouth/Poole Pines Express and all its sundry summer spawnings, which would use an SR to Oxford, which would be replaced by a WR 4-6-0 normally to head northwards? from about 1963 these were invariably Bulleid pacifics, but previously Lord Nelsons and King Arthurs were commonly used, I believe (I missed those).
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.....

In the steam era, loco change locations were also related to fuel / water capacity, even if no reversal was involved.

ECML used Peterborough, Grantham, Doncaster, York & Newcastle for some locos changes (no more than one or two changes on any service.

.......

I didn't have the impression the ECML changes had anything to do with water - they had troughs every 20 odd miles - and a pacific would surely have enough coal for KX - Edinburgh if needed?

I thought that the loco changes on the ECML - principally Grantham, York and Newcastle) - were much more down to loco management, ie keep the engines close to home and make the home shed closely tied to 'it's own' engines. An effort, if you like, to induce better quality maintenance, because if you let bad quality stuff out, it would come back to bite you.

Perhaps one of our contributors from Torquay knows more on this?
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Pre the introduction of 'Tadpole' units in ... 1965? ... Tonbridge - Reading (Southern) trains would reverse at Redhill, typically a 2-6-4T giving way to a U or N 2-6-0.

 

[341o2]

It might be argued that the Atlantic Coast Express divided, but the MN bringing the train from London only worked as far as Exeter. The portions would then be hauled by unmodified WC/BB's.

In the steam hauled era,the Pines express usually had two changes, Manchester/Liverpool to Birmingham, Birmingham to Bath and Bath to Bournemouth.
After it was rerouted in 1962, typically it would be electric to Crewe, where either diesel or black 5 took the train to Wolverhampton, a former GWR steamer to Oxford, then SR WC/BB to Bournemouth

 

[30907]

It might be argued that the Atlantic Coast Express divided, but the MN bringing the train from London only worked as far as Exeter. The portions would then be hauled by unmodified WC/BB's.

Through engine working at Exeter C was unusual but not unknown - with all the remarshalling there, re-engining trains fitted well. Through engine working London-Exeter was reintroduced aound 1950 (with exceptions, most famously the Devon Belle). In any case, nothing larger than an N or unrebuilt light Pacific could work West of Exeter.

Bournemouth also saw a fair few engine changes, but there was no consistent pattern AFAIK.

 

[SouthDevonian]

Details of which trains changed locos at New St can be deduced from details on the PSUL (Passenger Services Over Unusual Lines) website. This lists all scheduled public services over unusual lines for each timetable year / part year as far back as 1963. Unusual lines include the Camp Hill line so anyone interested can work out which NW-SW trains did not reverse at New St. It is interesting to see which trains (usually summer SOs) took circuitous routes to avoid changing locos in the station at peak times, eg. in 1984:
08-55 Weymouth-Bradford Int travelled via Stechford South Jn – Aston (Stechford Jn) and Perry Barr South Jn - Perry Barr West Jn - Soho East Jn - Soho South Jn [this route circles around the north side of Birmingham to approach New St station from the west, rather than the usual eastern approach]
10-25 Portsmouth Hbr-Leeds went via Lifford West Jn- Bordesley Jn and St.Andrews Jn - Landor Street Jn [after leaving New St this circles the south side of Birmingham by going via Selly Oak, Lifford curve, Camp Hill to Saltley].
There are also details of the various routes used by trains that avoided New St altogether using lines such as Sutton Park which was used by the summer SO Newquay – Manchester up to 1883.

Re. the Pines Express - it was never scheduled to run via Bristol. South of Mangotsfield, it went to Bath Green Park where it reversed and a fresh loco was attached at what had been the rear of the train.

Re. ECML workings to / from KX in steam days, it was LNER/ER policy to change locos at Peterboro' or Grantham. Breaking up long journeys was in contrast to the WCML where locos on trains between Euston and Liverpool, Manchester & Blackpool worked throughout which was LMS/LMR policy. A particularly long haul for a steam crew on the WCML was between Crewe & Perth.
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In my previous post, amend year for the Newquay – Manchester from 1883 to 1983. I don't think many Mancunians went surfing in 1883.

 

[341o2]

Through engine working at Exeter C was unusual but not unknown - with all the remarshalling there, re-engining trains fitted well. Through engine working London-Exeter was reintroduced aound 1950 (with exceptions, most famously the Devon Belle). In any case, nothing larger than an N or unrebuilt light Pacific could work West of Exeter.

Bournemouth also saw a fair few engine changes, but there was no consistent pattern AFAIK.

Following work on Meldon viaduct 1959, the rebuilds could work trains between Exeter and Plymouth, but of course still overweight regarding the north Devon and Cornwall branches

 

[SouthDevonian]

Regarding the Woodhead electrics, the administrator of the British Railways Foundation website (who worked as Controller on many routes between the '40s & '70s) has remarked several times about the operational inefficiency of trains between east / south of the Sheffield area and north / west of the Manchester area, following the introduction of electrification. After electrification, summer SOs, excursions and freight would arrive at Sheffield Victoria or Rotherwood Sidings where the steam loco would come off and be replaced with an electric to go over the Pennines to Midland Jn (just north of Ashburys) where another steam loco would replace the electric. Thus 3 locos and sets of crew were required whereas before only one loco and one crew would work most such workings throughout.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Before the advent of long-range Class 47s, a round trip from Newcastle to Bristol and back without fuelling was not possible. In the 1970s, rather than fuel at Bath Road, Gateshead Duffs and Peaks would be removed from southbound trains at Gloucester Eastgate and would then take over a suitable northbound service, thereby making it all the way back to Newcastle on one tank of fuel. I imagine these trains were worked south by a Western or Class 50 (or WR spoon) and one can only imagine how hectic the workings would have been at Gloucester on a summer SO. Now all sadly gone :cry:

 

[Dai Corner]

Regarding the Woodhead electrics, the administrator of the British Railways Foundation website (who worked as Controller on many routes between the '40s & '70s) has remarked several times about the operational inefficiency of trains between east / south of the Sheffield area and north / west of the Manchester area, following the introduction of electrification. After electrification, summer SOs, excursions and freight would arrive at Sheffield Victoria or Rotherwood Sidings where the steam loco would come off and be replaced with an electric to go over the Pennines to Midland Jn (just north of Ashburys) where another steam loco would replace the electric. Thus 3 locos and sets of crew were required whereas before only one loco and one crew would work most such workings throughout.

I wonder whether this was an aversion to 'steam under the wires', or whether steam drivers no longer signed the Woodhead route? Did any drivers sign both steam and electric traction?

 

[30907]

I wonder whether this was an aversion to 'steam under the wires', or whether steam drivers no longer signed the Woodhead route? Did any drivers sign both steam and electric traction?

Wasn't steam barred through the shiny new Tunnel?

 

[Bevan Price]

I wonder whether this was an aversion to 'steam under the wires', or whether steam drivers no longer signed the Woodhead route? Did any drivers sign both steam and electric traction?

Working steam was banned through the new Woodhead Tunnel. ("Dead" steam locos could be dragged through the tunnel.).

Steam did work between Sheffield Victoria and Penistone until at least 1966 on some summer saturday services to / from the south.

Correction - in the last few years of steam, these services ran via Barnsley & Sheffield Midland (after the run down of services on the GCR London Extension.)

 

[billh]

I wonder whether this was an aversion to 'steam under the wires', or whether steam drivers no longer signed the Woodhead route? Did any drivers sign both steam and electric traction?

There was plenty of steam under the wires in the electrified areas east of Manchester- locos coming and going from Gorton shed,freight for Ardwick , Ashburys or Ashton Moss for example. A friend of mine is a retired driver who was based at Guide Bridge and drove all types of locos,steam ,diesel,electric. He signed Woodhead but steam was not permitted through the tunnel except hauled by electric.

 

[a good off]

No one has mentioned the loco changes that took place until the end of summer 1982 at Grassmoor Jn with the summer Saturday trains to/from the North to Yarmouth. Grassmoor was located bang in the middle of Whitemoor Yard at March (now underneath a prison) and the trains were routed over the GN&GE Joint line from Spalding.

Loco changes also took place at Cambridge in the late 80's when Class 86's worked the Liverpool St - King's Lynn services as far as Cambridge and then a 47 worked it forwards.

 

[Taunton]

The loco changes at Bristol until the 1970s were, among other things, because crews west of there had not been trained on diesel-electrics, only diesel-hydraulics (quite different controls). Not only did everything off the Birmingham line change from Peaks to Warships/Westerns, but also services like the "North and West" via Hereford would use WR Brush 4s from Crewe down to Bristol, then change there to a Western. When originally dieselised in 1962 these had run with a Warship from Plymouth right through to Crewe, but ran out of fuel more than once on the last lap *

Bristol Bath Road did have Peaks allocated but they ran exclusively before 1970 on the Birmingham lines, with crews from a different link who had transferred from the old Midland shed at Barrow Road.

The fuel capacity of diesel locos was originally limited, because they had to carry water for the train heating boiler as well, this took up half the under-frame space, plus of course fuel for the boiler. Once steam heating finished many main line locos got larger fuel tanks. At Kings Cross there was a fuelling point alongside the west side of the platforms, now lost to development, and a right inconvenience it was to get locos across to there from the arrival platforms on the east side of the station, involving multiple Z-shunts just into the tunnels. All Deltics etc however had to refuel between each long distance journey.

* : How do I know? Because a youthful Taunton was on board one afternoon when it happened, north of Shrewsbury. A Black 5 from the latter came to the rescue.

 

[SouthDevonian]

I have read several accounts that the LMR people at Crewe didn't know what to do with the Warships if they failed at Crewe and that was the main reason for insisting that diesel electrics be used on the North to West route instead. A similar thing occurred on the Paddington - West Midlands route hence the Westerns were replaced by the 47s.

Going back to the North to West route, did the loco change continue to be at Bristol after the stop & reversal at Newport was introduced for the daytime trains in 1966 (rather than using the Maindee East - North curve)? It would have seemed more logical to have moved it to Newport.

 

[Bevan Price]

The loco changes at Bristol until the 1970s were, among other things, because crews west of there had not been trained on diesel-electrics, only diesel-hydraulics (quite different controls). Not only did everything off the Birmingham line change from Peaks to Warships/Westerns, but also services like the "North and West" via Hereford would use WR Brush 4s from Crewe down to Bristol, then change there to a Western. When originally dieselised in 1962 these had run with a Warship from Plymouth right through to Crewe, but ran out of fuel more than once on the last lap *

.

For a while, some loco changes occurred at Shrewsbury, presumably just a continuation of steam practice. On one journey, I was on a train that changed here from a Class 47 to a Class 40. In steam days, any GW Castle or Hall would be removed at Shrewsbury and replaced by a LM 4-6-0 (typically a Jubilee or Black 5.)

 

[PHILIPE]

For a while, some loco changes occurred at Shrewsbury, presumably just a continuation of steam practice. On one journey, I was on a train that changed here from a Class 47 to a Class 40. In steam days, any GW Castle or Hall would be removed at Shrewsbury and replaced by a LM 4-6-0 (typically a Jubilee or Black 5.)

And LM Coronations also when still running in from Crewe Works. Scots were not uncommon either

 

[randyrippley]

Don't forget also that another reason for locomotive change at Bristol was the switch from BR AWS to GWR AWS. They tried to keep locos running on lines fitted with the same warning system.
Question: could a loco be fitted with both, and were any?

 

[Taunton]

WR diesels were progressively fitted with both systems, followed by the trackside installations being steadily changed over, and finally the GWR-pattern ATC on locomotives being removed. This happened around the late 1960s/early 1970s. On diesels it sometimes coincided with fitting train air brake equipment as well, which was coming on line for express passenger stock at the same time. It also coincided with the run-down of the WR hydraulics and the transfer in of locos from other regions as replacements, which generally were not fitted with GWR ATC on arrival.

 

[Helvellyn]

When BR introduced services from Manchester/Liverpool to Brighton/Dover via Kensington Olympia in the mid-1980s, weren't they electric hauled to Wembley Yard and then a 47 took over?

I recall being on a Mystery Tour that did this too, although we swapped a Class 85 for a Class 33 to take us on to Portsmouth.

 

[fowler9]

When BR introduced services from Manchester/Liverpool to Brighton/Dover via Kensington Olympia in the mid-1980s, weren't they electric hauled to Wembley Yard and then a 47 took over?

I recall being on a Mystery Tour that did this too, although we swapped a Class 85 for a Class 33 to take us on to Portsmouth.

I believe that to be the case, only travelled on one once.

 

[edwin_m]

I think these were the ones that normally swapped locos at Mitre Bridge. A northbound train would have to cross the Up Fast and both slows at Willesden to get into Wembley Yard, then back again to get back onto the Down Fast. Mitre Bridge is on the branch from Willesden Junction towards Olympia, which is much less busy than the WCML and was even less busy then, so a stop for long enough to change locos could be fitted into the timetable.

 

[Altfish]

Not read all the previous posts but I'll give my thoughts.

The most changes I've ever had the privilege to enjoy was travelling from Southampton to Manchester on the post S&D Pines Express....
Soton to Oxford - Merchant Navy
Oxford to Shrewsbury - Castle
Shrewsbury to Crewe - Black 5
Crewe to Piccadilly - Electric E30xx

Crewe was a great place for loco changes, before electrification to Preston/Carlisle/Scotland was completed electrics used to change for steam and then Class 50's when they were still D4xx

 

[Taunton]

In pre-BR days the normal loco changing progression for an ECML train from Kings Cross to Edinburgh was :

Kings Cross to Grantham
Grantham to York
York to Newcastle
Newcastle to Edinburgh

Each sector was, very roughly, 100 miles. At an average of 50mph it would be around 2 hours running for each sector, which with standing time and fitting into the schedule fits nicely into an 8 hour workday, without needing lodging turns, and the crew would retain the same loco all day. A 200 mile round trip for a steam loco crew was a good but very hard day's work, and if I recall correctly the old union agreement was an extra hour's pay for each 20 miles over 100 miles in a day, so the crew could end up with almost a double day's pay - but on a steam loco they had certainly earned it.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In pre-BR days the normal loco changing progression for an ECML train from Kings Cross to Edinburgh was :

Kings Cross to Grantham
Grantham to York
York to Newcastle
Newcastle to Edinburgh

Each sector was, very roughly, 100 miles. At an average of 50mph it would be around 2 hours running for each sector, which with standing time and fitting into the schedule fits nicely into an 8 hour workday, without needing lodging turns, and the crew would retain the same loco all day. A 200 mile round trip for a steam loco crew was a good but very hard day's work, and if I recall correctly the old union agreement was an extra hour's pay for each 20 miles over 100 miles in a day, so the crew could end up with almost a double day's pay - but on a steam loco they had certainly earned it.

What I find interesting is that this did not apply (ever) to the Yorkshire expresses to/from Kings Cross. Holbeck and Kings Cross shed A1 and A4 locos would work right through between Leeds Central and Kings Cross without a change at Grantham, even though some trains stopped there. Even the carriage workings were completely separate from the Anglo/Scottish trains. A very reliable book on this subject states that the crack turn on Holbeck shed was the crew that worked the White Rose express throughout in both directions with approximately 2 hours turnaround in London. This was such a prestigious (and killer) turn that the top link Holbeck crew were the only set of men who did not have to prepare their loco on shed before departure, and would even book on at Leeds Central station to join their loco just before departure. Not many tougher turns can have existed in the 1950s / early 60s.