Loco changes en-route

[Dai Corner]

The thread about operations at terminal stations in the loco-hauled era reminded me about services which changed locos en route.

At Birmingham New Street there were changes from electric to diesel traction for trains arriving from the Wolverhampton direction and going on towards Bristol. IIRC such trains reversed, the electric coming off one end and the diesel going on the other.

At Bristol Temple Meads Cardiff-Portsmouth trains also reversed. The loco which brought the train in from Cardiff was detached and one waiting in the siding between platforms 5 and 7 attached to the other end of the train to take it on to Portsmouth. The first loco then went into the siding to await the next arrival from Portsmouth and take it on to Cardiff.

I never got to observe operations at Preston but believe these involved combining Manchester and Liverpool portions as well as changing from diesel to electric traction. Was the operation reversed at Carstairs, forming Glasgow and Edinburgh portions?

 

[EbbwJunction1]

"Was the operation reversed at Carstairs, forming Glasgow and Edinburgh portions?"

Yes, basically, it was.

The northbound train would split and the Glasgow portion would leave in one direction (with the original train engine) and the Edinburgh portion in the other direction (with another engine which was waiting for it). I saw it happen a few times, and it seemed to be well organised.

With the southbound trains, the procedure was revered, with the engine from the Glasgow portion taking the whole train onwards.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I never got to observe operations at Preston but believe these involved combining Manchester and Liverpool portions as well as changing from diesel to electric traction. Was the operation reversed at Carstairs, forming Glasgow and Edinburgh portions?

You don't state which era you are referring to but in the 80s I think there was only 1 train per day. One train would arrive into platform 3 and the other into platform 2 and the station shunter would then shunt the P2 portion onto the P3 one. The southbound working obviously didn't require shunting but as you say did require loco changes.

There were other services that didn't split/join that required loco changes at Preston if going to/via Manchester.

It was amazing how quickly these loco changes took place. Something which is now, sadly, a lost art on the railway.

 

[AJP62]

At Carstairs going south the Edinburgh portion would pass through the station on a loop and once the Glasgow portion was in the platform the Edinburgh portion would be reversed onto it.

Preston also combined portions going south when Carlisle portions combined with those from Barrow or Blackpool. I seem to remember the morning Carlisle/Barrow combination being Carlisle portion arrives in main platform with Barrow portion alongside, engine comes off Barrow portion (class 50 on 4 coaches!) and electric off Carlisle portion detached to go collect Barrow portion then reverse it onto front of Carlisle portion. Could be the 50 did the reversing after electric came off out the way though.

This process at Preston kept the portions in the correct order for the return trip when the Barrow portion would be left in the platform as the Carlisle portion departed.

The process at Carstairs meant the portions needed to be switched in Birmingham for the return north. Also, the catering vehicle in the Glasgow portion would be central in the train going north but right at the front going south.

 

[PHILIPE]

Reading - on services from the Midlands and North to and from the South Coast (Currently XC). These services reversed here and the incoming loco would go to a siding after the departure and drop back to work the next service forward.

Also Crewe Before electrification was extended north (other than Manchester and Liverpool routes) would be required to change locos between electric and Diesel and vice versa

 

[Failed Unit]

At Carstairs going south the Edinburgh portion would pass through the station on a loop and once the Glasgow portion was in the platform the Edinburgh portion would be reversed onto it.

This is still what happens today

 

[306024]

From 1985 to 1987, Liverpool St - Norwich trains used to change locos at Ipswich. Class 86 on the London end of the route, class 47 at the Norwich end. Difficult to imagine that these days.

 

[eastdyke]

From 1985 to 1987, Liverpool St - Norwich trains used to change locos at Ipswich. Class 86 on the London end of the route, class 47 at the Norwich end. Difficult to imagine that these days.

In the steam era loco changes at Ipswich were common. There was a spur just off the end of Platform 2 for the loco waiting for the southbound change, mostly B1's and B17's in the mid 50's.

 

[Mag_seven]

At Birmingham New Street there were changes from electric to diesel traction for trains arriving from the Wolverhampton direction and going on towards Bristol.

Also didn't services to Scotland via Preston from the south coast change from diesel to electric at Coventry?

 

[Bevan Price]

Also didn't services to Scotland via Preston from the south coast change from diesel to electric at Coventry?

Some did. And I was on an ADEX that changed from electric to a Class 33 at Coventry. However, some trains ran via Solihull and changed locos at Birmingham New St.

In the steam era, loco change locations were also related to fuel / water capacity, even if no reversal was involved.

ECML used Peterborough, Grantham, Doncaster, York & Newcastle for some locos changes (no more than one or two changes on any service.

WCML mainly used Crewe / Carlisle for Anglo-Scottish services.

Liverpool Lime St. to Newcastle changed locos at Leeds.

Liverpool Exchange - Wakefield - Newcastle changed locos at York.

And there were steam to electric changes at Sheffield Victoria after Woodhead was electrified.

 

[Cowley]

Also didn't services to Scotland via Preston from the south coast change from diesel to electric at Coventry?

Was Mitre Bridge Junction also a changeover point for some trains? I'm sure I've been on trains that changed from diesel to electric there.

 

[fowler9]

The thread about operations at terminal stations in the loco-hauled era reminded me about services which changed locos en route.

At Birmingham New Street there were changes from electric to diesel traction for trains arriving from the Wolverhampton direction and going on towards Bristol. IIRC such trains reversed, the electric coming off one end and the diesel going on the other.

At Bristol Temple Meads Cardiff-Portsmouth trains also reversed. The loco which brought the train in from Cardiff was detached and one waiting in the siding between platforms 5 and 7 attached to the other end of the train to take it on to Portsmouth. The first loco then went into the siding to await the next arrival from Portsmouth and take it on to Cardiff.

I never got to observe operations at Preston but believe these involved combining Manchester and Liverpool portions as well as changing from diesel to electric traction. Was the operation reversed at Carstairs, forming Glasgow and Edinburgh portions?

At New Street I have been on services where the electric loco from Liverpool has come off the front and a Spoon or something has gone back on the front.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I remember someone asking not so long ago how locos got from one end of the train to the other at stations like Lime Street. Ha ha. There were so many locos knocking around then they didn't have to. Oh to be young, ha ha. I don't think some people realise how much movement there was around stations before almost everything became multiple units. I know every generation thinks there's was the best but with Units taking over everything there is a hell of a lot less going on at most stations.

 

[Mag_seven]

Was Mitre Bridge Junction also a changeover point for some trains? I'm sure I've been on trains that changed from diesel to electric there.

Correct

Other diesel / electric changeover points I can think of:

Mossend yard (e.g. "The Clansman" and Sleeper services)
Carlisle (if a service was routed WCML/S&C or WCML/G&SW)
Preston (Euston - Blackpool services)

 

[theageofthetra]

I go to cricket with a bloke in his 70's who remembers the loco change from electric to steam at Rickmansworth- he reckons it was so quick it didn't seem much longer than a normal station stop.

 

[delt1c]

An Interesting one was the Leeds to Kings Cross sleeper, this used an 08 to shunt the carriages onto the ex Newcastle service at York. so ypu had an 08 hauled rostered service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
another interesting service was the Euston to Fort william sleeper which detached from the Inverness service at Mossend , almost any mainline iesel available could be used to haul it to Queen St (class 20 wasnt unknown. Then it was combined with the stock for the 06.00 departure to Fort William complete with Resturaunt car hauled by a 27. This in the mid 70's had (in my mind at least) the finest breakfast on the BR network

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The only service I can recall being on with a scheduled loco-change (rather than a swap due to failure) was in 1988 as a 6-year old. The service was a footex from Huddersfield to Wembley Central for the F.A. Vase final (Emley 0 - 1 Colne Dynamoes, a.e.t.) and was 47-hauled to Stockport via Denton where an 86 took over.

 

[ainsworth74]

An Interesting one was the Leeds to Kings Cross sleeper, this used an 08 to shunt the carriages onto the ex Newcastle service at York. so ypu had an 08 hauled rostered service

You could still manage this at Plymouth with the Night Riveria until the early 2000s when the pick up/drop off of a sleeper coach was discontinued. Until then an 08 was used to move the stock around either to drop it onto the train or park it up in an out of the way platform.

 

[Ianno87]

I have many, many memories of being with my Dad watching loco changes at Preston on Saturday afternoons in the mid-1990s for XC services that ran via Manchester. Southbound services were about 1330 (the Sussex Scot, for Brighton) and 1530 (the Dorset Scot, for Poole). Northbound were about 1100-ish and about 1600ish IIRC (less sure about these without looking them up)

The 47 for the Brighton was kept in Platform 3C during the day, with the 47 for the Poole kept round the back of the RES platform.

On arrival from the north into Platform 4, the 86 was detached, and then would head straight off Down the WCML to Crewe, with the 47 shunting via the Goods Lines on the Ribble bridge in the meantime and then backing onto the waiting train. Whole operation took about 20 minutes.

 

[SouthDevonian]

Until 1970, Bristol was regarded as an Iron Curtain for LM trains coming off the Gloucester line and going to the South West. I remember travelling on the southbound Cornishman in the summer of 1967. There was a Peak as far as TM where a Western took over. My rail journey had started at Craigellachie on Speyside on the Saturday morning and I eventually got back to Plymouth at 5pm on the Sunday. Highlights included: changing trains at the long lost Cairnie Jn (an interchange island station only with no access to get off); last year of travel over the Kinnaber Jn - Forfar - Stanley Jn line (the original West Coast line to Aberdeen as featured in the famous races to the north v. the East Coast line); an evening at a cinema in Glasgow to see the Good, the Bad & the Ugly before taking the night train to Birmingham NS; Sunday diversion of the Cornishman via Worcester SH, Pershore, Honeybourne, Toddington, Cheltenham Jn (reverse into LM station) then via Mangotsfield. Happy days.

 

[AJM580]

With regard to the loco changes at Ipswich, I remember hearing that the staff at Ipswich were so used to uncoupling locos that when a Harwich train with a 31 pulled in it was uncoupled before everyone realised it was booked to go through!

 

[Iskra]

I have many, many memories of being with my Dad watching loco changes at Preston on Saturday afternoons in the mid-1990s for XC services that ran via Manchester. Southbound services were about 1330 (the Sussex Scot, for Brighton) and 1530 (the Dorset Scot, for Poole). Northbound were about 1100-ish and about 1600ish IIRC (less sure about these without looking them up)

The 47 for the Brighton was kept in Platform 3C during the day, with the 47 for the Poole kept round the back of the RES platform.

On arrival from the north into Platform 4, the 86 was detached, and then would head straight off Down the WCML to Crewe, with the 47 shunting via the Goods Lines on the Ribble bridge in the meantime and then backing onto the waiting train. Whole operation took about 20 minutes.

Wasn't this happening up until the early 00's? I remember getting a Virgin Cross Country service up the WCML from Oxenholme to Edinburgh that had an 86 on the front. Being a VXC service it must have come from somewhere down south that wasn't wired, swapping loco's somewhere.

 

[Mag_seven]

You could still manage this at Plymouth with the Night Riveria until the early 2000s when the pick up/drop off of a sleeper coach was discontinued. Until then an 08 was used to move the stock around either to drop it onto the train or park it up in an out of the way platform.

Similarly there used to be a Carlisle sleeper coach that was added/taken off of the Lowland sleeper at Carlisle using an 08. Not sure when this stopped but suspect it was late 90's/early 00's

 

[randyrippley]

it wasn't unusual for Exeter-Waterloo services to get their Warship swapped at Salisbury when the extra coaches were added........the train loco would pull off the front while the new loco would back on with the extras. Didn't always happen - sometimes the extras were added by a shunter and the train loco backed on again. I was never certain if the change was booked, or because the first Warship was showing the usual signs of imminent demise.......
Going the other way the coaches were just dropped off the rear so the loco was rarely changed.

 

[JohnW1]

Up until the end of the 1970's Nottingham was a loco change point on the St Pancras - Sheffield via Nottingham expresses
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/6297688522/

 

[Ianno87]

Wasn't this happening up until the early 00's? I remember getting a Virgin Cross Country service up the WCML from Oxenholme to Edinburgh that had an 86 on the front. Being a VXC service it must have come from somewhere down south that wasn't wired, swapping loco's somewhere.

Yes, would've continued until mass Voyager introduction in around 2001/2.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Reading - on services from the Midlands and North to and from the South Coast (Currently XC). These services reversed here and the incoming loco would go to a siding after the departure and drop back to work the next service forward.

Did they also reverse at Birmingham New Street?

 

[edwin_m]

Did they also reverse at Birmingham New Street?

These ones would have come in via Coventry, or via Solihull, so would enter New Street with the loco towards Manchester and not require reversal. Trains between Manchester and Bristol would normally use the line via Selly Oak with reversal at New Street (where there would also be a swap of electric for diesel loco as mentioned above).

However the various connecting lines around Birmingham meant either of these would occasionally arrive/depart at the opposite end. I recall boarding an Edinburgh/Glasgow splitter at New Street and assuming they'd shown the portions the wrong way round on the platform indicators, only to find it departing towards Coventry and getting to Wolverhampton via Aston.

 

[flymo]

This thread takes me back to Brummingham New St in the mid 80's where the holidaymaker services on a Friday night/Sat morning were aplenty. 2 to 4 am saw a huge number of changes with Duff's or Sparks coming off and hoovers or a pair of Cromptons going on (they changed going both ways here). A cup of Traveller's Fare strength 5 tea (the spoon remains vertical without support) whiled away the hours. The many south's went off then the few north's came in to reverse the trend. Sorry but halcyon days, never to see the likes again ..

 

[PHILIPE]

These ones would have come in via Coventry, or via Solihull, so would enter New Street with the loco towards Manchester and not require reversal. Trains between Manchester and Bristol would normally use the line via Selly Oak with reversal at New Street (where there would also be a swap of electric for diesel loco as mentioned above).

However the various connecting lines around Birmingham meant either of these would occasionally arrive/depart at the opposite end. I recall boarding an Edinburgh/Glasgow splitter at New Street and assuming they'd shown the portions the wrong way round on the platform indicators, only to find it departing towards Coventry and getting to Wolverhampton via Aston.

Until approx 1990, trains that did have to reverse at New St always had a different loco but from that time which was towards the introduction of Voyagers, the same Class 47 loco ran round. Whilst having a pint with a XC (North East/South West at that time) Planner following a Meeting, I queried this and he said all pathing had been investigated and the adjacent road was free for the loco to run round.

 

[87015]

Until approx 1990, trains that did have to reverse at New St always had a different loco but from that time which was towards the introduction of Voyagers, the same Class 47 loco ran round. Whilst having a pint with a XC (North East/South West at that time) Planner following a Meeting, I queried this and he said all pathing had been investigated and the adjacent road was free for the loco to run round.

1990 and Voyagers? I'm fairly confident that with the exception of the first and last in the majority of timetables from privatisation at least the stuff that went Derby-New St-Cov axis were all HSTs during the daytime. Manchester services could be through diesel as well as loco change, Manchester/Liverpool-Birminghams generally ran through to International and ran round there if not continuing south or west. Those going Wolves-Cov direction booked in generally xx54-xx06 heading south at New St for the loco change from memory. The all shacks unit was xx51 and the XC followed that from Wolves.

Also the duffs were often due a visit to Saltley for fuel.