Local DEMU stock

[northwichcat]

One thing that keeps coming up is the viability of ordering brand new DMUs with electrification schemes in progress. However, in contrast to that argument we have ageing non-DDA complaint DMUs which may not last until various electrification schemes are complete and even if they do there is the DDA compliance issue.

However, what would be the viability of having a number new DEMUs for local services? I appreciate these will be more expensive than DMUs but they could either be ordered to be dual powered or be upgraded to be dual powered at a later date.

 

[David10]

I believe that the cascades resulting from the various electrification schemes should be enough to replace the Pacers. If some of these projects will not be finished by the 2020 DDA deadline I would expect derogation granted for these to operate beyond this date. I would imagine the cost of developing a bi-mode DMU would be ferociously expensive.

 

[WatcherZero]

Problem is the electric units they will be cascaded with to operate will start to need replacing only 5 years later (for instance its thought the 315's will only operate the Valleys services for 5 years before a new fleet needs to enter service to replace them) theres talk of life extending the 317's and 319's but only a portion of the fleets will be life extended. The required diesel fleet will shrink considerably and theres a good chance of the 125's being life extended and taking over the busier regional services freeing stock to reinforce local services but still two fleets will need to be ordered, a diesel fleet of something like 800 cars then five years later an electric fleet of something like 3,000 (though its unlikely there will be a direct replacement, you will see them replacing older units like Turbostars around London which are then sent North to replace the expired units). Building them to the same design does over potential savings.

 

[starrymarkb]

Bi Mode Bi Voltage EDMU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorail_à_grande_capacité

Not sure you could do it in UK gauge though

 

[northwichcat]

I believe that the cascades resulting from the various electrification schemes should be enough to replace the Pacers.

I don't unless a lot of the plans for extra capacity and new services in the Northern Hub and other schemes are axed. I estimated we'd be around 70 units short (minimum) in another thread should North West, North TPE, Valley Lines and Thames Valley/GWML electrification all be completed by 2019 given plans for extra capacity, extra services and probable plans to reform 153s in to 155s or make them in to centre carriages due to the cost involved with making single carriage units DDA complaint. Then I'm assuming that all 150s will be made DDA complaint and continue in service, which considering their age may not be the case.

Then as the user tbtc pointed in another thread, if we see mass temporary withdrawals of Sprinters for DDA complaint refurbishment what spare diesel units are going to cover these refurbishments?

 

[SprinterMan]

Back in the 08s, we nearly ended up with 210s instead of Pacers & Sprinters, but cost was prohibitive. Shame really, as they could easily be converted into EDMUs.
Adam

 

[Yew]

I'm not sure the costs would be prohibitive, we have designs based off the same bodyshell with both electric and diesel variants. If you took the 210 approach and had the engine behind the cab, (possibly wit a small gangway to the side? To allow through walking) you could probably do it relatively simply and retain a decent seating capacity.

Say you had an electrostar base, I 2 car formations you could probably have the same amount of searing as in standard in a 2car turbo star (maybe more if you moved the disabled toilet to near the engine, if possible. )

 

[jopsuk]

a three car 210 had lower capacity than a 3-car 150, simply by dint of 1/3-1/2 a carriage being taken up by the engine.
Not so sure they could be "easily" converted either.

 

[northwichcat]

a three car 210 had lower capacity than a 3-car 150, simply by dint of 1/3-1/2 a carriage being taken up by the engine.
Not so sure they could be "easily" converted either.

GMPTE looked at options for bi-mode trains with, at the time, Greater Manchester having a mix of unelectrified track, overhead electrics and third rail electrics. It was apparently GMPTE's preferred option for class 210s to replace both first gen DMUs and EMUs but budget problems at central government meant they got 142s and 150s instead and later got new 323s for the electric routes with two being converted to Metrolink.
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Back in the 08s, we nearly ended up with 210s instead of Pacers & Sprinters, but cost was prohibitive. Shame really, as they could easily be converted into EDMUs.
Adam

80s you mean, unless they were a lot more ahead of the times in 1908 then we thought!

I don't think 210s would have been a nationwide thing - the Cornwall and Devon branches certainly needed something cheaper.

 

[jopsuk]

I think the "one big prime mover" approach of the 210s was the wrong way to go. I understand the thinking- the 317-322 and 455, all being related EMUs, used a single power car with 2-3 trailers, and they really had to make it an end car, but (as much as this would dismay many here) for practicality such a thing would be better, like the Sprinters etc, with smaller engines/alternators under each car, and a power bogie per car.

 

[Class172]

Then as the user tbtc pointed in another thread, if we see mass temporary withdrawals of Sprinters for DDA complaint refurbishment what spare diesel units are going to cover these refurbishments?

Could we not temporarily convert some services to being operated by loco-hauled stock? Not on any service, but those that are longer-distance/inter-regional currently operated by DMUs (eg Turbostars); the DMUs can then be used on the busier services where sprinters have been lost for DDA conversion.

 

[Surreyman]

One thing that keeps coming up is the viability of ordering brand new DMUs with electrification schemes in progress. However, in contrast to that argument we have ageing non-DDA complaint DMUs which may not last until various electrification schemes are complete and even if they do there is the DDA compliance issue.

However, what would be the viability of having a number new DEMUs for local services? I appreciate these will be more expensive than DMUs but they could either be ordered to be dual powered or be upgraded to be dual powered at a later date.

I like this idea a lot, the French have decided that 'Bi-modes' are the way forward and will not source anymore pure diesel passenger trains.
Dft has sanctioned lots of Bi-mode IEPs and much speculation about converting Voyagers with a pantograph car added (with Midland main Line and Nuneaton - Oxford/Reading - Southampton planned for 25Kv) it looks as this will happen, as a large part of the Cross-Country network will be 'diesels under the wires' if not.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Could we not temporarily convert some services to being operated by loco-hauled stock?

The problem is we no longer have the rolling stock!

 

[shedman]

Bi Mode Bi Voltage EDMU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorail_à_grande_capacité

Is it me or does the top unit have a look of the prototype power car about it?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I like this idea a lot, the French have decided that 'Bi-modes' are the way forward and will not source anymore pure diesel passenger trains.

I concur. Surely the same design could be made to fit our loading gauge?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it me or does the top unit have a look of the prototype power car about it?

Agreed! They certainly look impressive but alas would probably not fit our loading gauge.

 

[David10]

The problem is we no longer have the rolling stock!

Riviera were able to round up enough Mk2s to form 6 sets during the Olympics, ATW own 20 and Chiltern have a sizeable fleet of Mk3s. Not that loco hauled is the long term solution.

 

[northwichcat]

Riviera were able to round up enough Mk2s to form 6 sets during the Olympics, ATW own 20 and Chiltern have a sizeable fleet of Mk3s. Not that loco hauled is the long term solution.

How exactly would you see it working? If the loco hauled sets keep getting moved around then there will be a lot of crew training required. Would, for instance, FGW or Anglia get their Sprinters refurbished first, get the loco hauled sets as cover and then keep the loco hauled sets and loan out the newly refurbished units to cover for other operator's units being refurbished?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dft has sanctioned lots of Bi-mode IEPs and much speculation about converting Voyagers with a pantograph car added (with Midland main Line and Nuneaton - Oxford/Reading - Southampton planned for 25Kv) it looks as this will happen, as a large part of the Cross-Country network will be 'diesels under the wires' if not.

If the dual-powered IEP units are delivered before the electric only units then they can also be put in to use while the electrification work is in progress instead of waiting for it to be complete before introducing new units.

 

[David10]

How exactly would you see it working? If the loco hauled sets keep getting moved around then there will be a lot of crew training required. Would, for instance, FGW or Anglia get their Sprinters refurbished first, get the loco hauled sets as cover and then keep the loco hauled sets and loan out the newly refurbished units to cover for other operator's units being refurbished?

If and it's a very big if, LHCS were to be used they would be kept to a few fixed diagrams like has been the case when TOCs have used them over the past decade.

 

[Class172]

If and it's a very big if, LHCS were to be used they would be kept to a few fixed diagrams like has been the case when TOCs have used them over the past decade.

Settle & Carlisle line services spring to mind, low density, long distance.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Riviera were able to round up enough Mk2s to form 6 sets during the Olympics, ATW own 20 and Chiltern have a sizeable fleet of Mk3s. Not that loco hauled is the long term solution.

I would imagine the Chiltern Mk3's are used very intensively and i don't think a set of tatty Mk2's would go down very well with passengers!

 

[sprinterguy]

I would imagine the Chiltern Mk3's are used very intensively and i don't think a set of tatty Mk2's would go down very well with passengers!

Riviera Trains' mark 2s would be a good deal less tatty than a fair proportion of Northern's train fleet as it stands at the moment.

Additionally, passengers don't seem to have minded when mark 2s have been used in regular passenger service across the past decade on the WAG express, the Fife Circle loco hauled workings, FGWs' Cardiff - Taunton diagrams, Leeds - Carlisle with ATN, Manchester to Blackpool and whatever Wessex Trains used mark 2s and class 31s on (Cardiff - Portsmouth?).

I would say that loco hauled operation on a select number of diagrams would be an entirely sensible approach to covering for DMUs undergoing refurbishment if it was required.

 

[Yew]

I would imagine the Chiltern Mk3's are used very intensively and i don't think a set of tatty Mk2's would go down very well with passengers!

If it was for a reasonable period of time, then a refresh could be good call, with a suitably sized rake so that in rush hour people can get a seat, then commuters could actually see it as an improvement

 

[David10]

I would imagine the Chiltern Mk3's are used very intensively

Was referring to the 50 or so examples still in store.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Additionally, passengers don't seem to have minded when mark 2s have been used in regular passenger service across the past decade on the WAG express, the Fife Circle loco hauled workings, FGWs' Cardiff - Taunton diagrams, Leeds - Carlisle with ATN, Manchester to Blackpool and whatever Wessex Trains used mark 2s and class 31s on (Cardiff - Portsmouth?).

In all fairness though there is a huge difference between travelling on a certain type train through a lack of choice and actually enjoying the experience! Given the choice all commuters between Stevenage and Kings Cross would rather travel on an East Coast service but many have to setttle for a FCC train instead. That doesn't necessarily demonstrate that they enjoy the journey!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was referring to the 50 or so examples still in store.

And what kind of state are they in I wonder? If they were in decent nick surely they would be in service?

 

[The Ham]

And what kind of state are they in I wonder? If they were in decent nick surely they would be in service?

By the time we need to use them there is likely to be a fair few Mark 3's from the IC125's that could be used. Either in shortened IC125 format or hauled by other locos (class 67's?).

Also could you not pair up compliant and non compliant stock to provide longer trains which meet the DDA requirements but mean you don't have to have quite so many complaint trains. As I'd have thought that any non compliant stock would be fairly cheap to lease after the requirements come in as they will not be able run on their own.

 

[sprinterguy]

By the time we need to use them there is likely to be a fair few Mark 3's from the IC125's that could be used. Either in shortened IC125 format or hauled by other locos (class 67's?).

The HST mark 3s would have to be completely re-wired to make them compatible with locos though. Not impossible by any means as it has been done before, but there would have to be a proven case that the rolling stock would be in use for several more years following refurbishment to justify the expenditure.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

One thing that keeps coming up is the viability of ordering brand new DMUs with electrification schemes in progress. However, in contrast to that argument we have ageing non-DDA complaint DMUs which may not last until various electrification schemes are complete and even if they do there is the DDA compliance issue.

However, what would be the viability of having a number new DEMUs for local services? I appreciate these will be more expensive than DMUs but they could either be ordered to be dual powered or be upgraded to be dual powered at a later date.

Turbostars designed for convertability?

 

[Nym]

The HST mark 3s would have to be completely re-wired to make them compatible with locos though. Not impossible by any means as it has been done before, but there would have to be a proven case that the rolling stock would be in use for several more years following refurbishment to justify the expenditure.

Technically yes, but also technically no...

You could re-wire one of the HST trailers at each end of a rake with it's own MA (Motor Alternator) set or power electronics to take the 1000V ETS supply and convert it to 440/415V 3L+N for the remainder of the carriages for the electrical systems at least.

Door controls I'm not too sure on though.