LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone even use the direct service from the Stoke wobble to London now that it goes via Birmingham? I feel this should just be split at Birmingham in the ideal world.

I think it should all be split back up at Birmingham; if they want to reduce terminating at New St run one the Liverpools to International and one or more of the Eustons to Wolves but no further (in the event of delays the "extra bit" can then be cancelled to get back on time as there are plenty of connections).

Hardly anybody doing the journey all the way from Lime St to Euston due to the low cost is likely to be too bothered about getting up to stretch their legs at New St rather than sit on a train for nearly 5 hours.

If we have to keep it as it is, there needs to be a lot more slack in the diagrams, both of units but certainly of crews - it's the latter causing most of the delays (as with Northern).

 

[700007]

See, there's the thing!! The Management are still the same, the staff are still the same, the units are still the same....whats changed? The timetable!

Interesting to know though whether you think this downturn is a recent thing..ie since the timetable change, or whether you noticed many changes in the first 18 months of WMT (before the timetable change)

There has been a bit of new management but I think people dismiss small bits of staff change at the top as a small thing. That's a game changer, particularly on a new franchise. This can mean new politics, new priorities and new directions that they want the business to take. They will achieve their business aims potentially in different ways to the next person and that is why ultimately franchising takes place, to see who can deliver the most at the best price.

The choice to wedge several routes together to save money surely in real terms would not be justifiable and may even be making a loss when ticket holders are constantly reclaiming delay repay and the TOC gets penalised for missing or severely late running trains?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The choice to wedge several routes together to save money surely in real terms would not be justifiable and may even be making a loss when ticket holders are constantly reclaiming delay repay and the TOC gets penalised for missing or severely late running trains?

There will certainly have been at least several hundred full refunds from the debacle yesterday evening, with nothing southbound from Northampton for at least an hour, not to mention the penalties for the cancellations. So it must be costing them money.

I'm not sure connecting the routes together was to save money as such, though, it was a combination of reducing platform usage at New St (to improve reliability - ha!) and taking more fares by providing attractive if slow through services. Having overtight diagrams, particularly of crews, was to do that.

 

[sufian123]

Reading the comments, how long will it take to resolve all this. Passengers are suffering by this? Don’t tell me it’ll be sorted in December?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reading the comments, how long will it take to resolve all this. Passengers are suffering by this? Don’t tell me it’ll be sorted in December?

I believe a timetable change is now too late for December. The only way it can be sorted now is changing unit or crew diagrams to add more slack (which may require one or more of: short forms, getting more units, recruiting more staff).

I fear, like Northern's issues, it won't be solved. It'll just carry on like that until something gives - either Abellio pay out so much Delay Repay the TOC collapses and the keys are handed back, or they are found in breach and it is taken off them.

 

[sufian123]

I believe a timetable change is now too late for December. The only way it can be sorted now is changing unit or crew diagrams to add more slack (which may require one or more of: short forms, getting more units, recruiting more staff).

I fear, like Northern's issues, it won't be solved. It'll just carry on like that until something gives - either Abellio pay out so much Delay Repay the TOC collapses and the keys are handed back, or they are found in breach and it is taken off them.

Basically leave us to suffer. No wonder northern closed to a collapse. This is going to be bumpy ride.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Basically leave us to suffer. No wonder northern closed to a collapse. This is going to be bumpy ride.

I think this is very much our GTR (ironically the Southern services are now the most reliable thing on the south WCML, VT aside, and that's saying something). It'll be even more so when D** starts entering discussion as I understand it is intended to - so you can add strikes for a prolonged period to the mix too (and blame DaFT for that part, not Abellio).

 

[sufian123]

I think this is very much our GTR (ironically the Southern services are now the most reliable thing on the south WCML, VT aside, and that's saying something). It'll be even more so when D** starts entering discussion as I understand it is intended to - so you can add strikes for a prolonged period to the mix too (and blame DaFT for that part, not Abellio).

Southern is. I need to travel and see. True can’t wait to see how all this plays out. thanks

 

[RealTrains07]

The franchise agreement did want a timetable overhaul and a number of extensions on the London to Birmingham line up to Walsall, which in turn would reduce the amount of trains terminating at Birmingham New Street. It was also agreed with stakeholders that London - Birmingham - Crewe would happen via the wobble following the loss of the direct Trent Valley services.

But there was nothing about having the Walsall trains going all the way to Rugeley, nothing about complex diagramming and portion working, and nothing about direct Liverpool trains. The London to Crewe via Birmingham and the wobble wasn't even a franchise agreement, it was just an agreement at stakeholder levels that were upset. West Midlands Trains did not actually have to do this if it brought commercial, fleet or performance risks to them that weren't justifiable.

Does anyone even use the direct service from the Stoke wobble to London now that it goes via Birmingham? I feel this should just be split at Birmingham in the ideal world.

MANY people rely on the wobble in the stoke and staffs area. A lot of students like myself also rely on it too to get to college/uni

Its local regional services like these which are being saved and helped in the West Midlands during the franchise. New line in the Black Country is due reopen at some point running services via wolves

Its isolated sections like the wobble which suffer in severe delays and cancellations. The service is poor compared to others i would argue

But yeah would be better splitting it then the whole route brum to crewe becomes isolated not just beyond stafford

 

[Bletchleyite]

MANY people rely on the wobble in the stoke and staffs area. A lot of students like myself also rely on it too to get to college/uni

Its local regional services like these which are being saved and helped in the West Midlands during the franchise. New line in the Black Country is due reopen at some point running services via wolves

Its isolated sections like the wobble which suffer in severe delays and cancellations. The service is poor compared to others i would argue

Ironically it's the through service to London that's causing it to be unreliable (and that was purely put on because of people whinging about it). If it was operated as a standalone Crewe to Birmingham via Stoke service with self-contained diagrams and worked from one crew depot throughout it would probably be much better for the majority of users than a grindingly slow Euston service where anyone with any sense changes onto the Trent Valley instead.

 

[sufian123]

Ironically it's the through service to London that's causing it to be unreliable (and that was purely put on because of people whinging about it). If it was operated as a standalone Crewe to Birmingham via Stoke service with self-contained diagrams and worked from one crew depot throughout it would probably be much better for the majority of users than a grindingly slow Euston service where anyone with any sense changes onto the Trent Valley instead.

Euston-Crewe was mainly kept for Alsager and Kidsgrove also stoke on Trent local were complaining and MPs were involved. I bet now they realise what a mistake we made by fighting for it.

 

[700007]

Would you rather, especially @RealTrains07 but this is open to everyone, in a hypothetical scenario if you could choose, on the wobble, have a service to Birmingham New Street or a service to Northampton via the Trent Valley?

There was talk of another train Northampton to Crewe although I don't know if that will ever materialise.

 

[bramling]

I believe a timetable change is now too late for December. The only way it can be sorted now is changing unit or crew diagrams to add more slack (which may require one or more of: short forms, getting more units, recruiting more staff).

I fear, like Northern's issues, it won't be solved. It'll just carry on like that until something gives - either Abellio pay out so much Delay Repay the TOC collapses and the keys are handed back, or they are found in breach and it is taken off them.

It’s very obvious LNwR is continuing where LM left off in positioning itself as a quasi long-distance operator to rival VT on price. The subtle difference being that they have simply taken this an order of magnitude further than LM, and (through naivety or deliberate choice) have been prepared to risk the reliability of their commuter operations for the prize of cheap advance flows.

I can’t see how it can be solved with the resources available unless they ditch some of the premises upon which this timetable is based.

 

[pt_mad]

I'm not sure through services could simply be dropped as some posters are suggesting. Would it not depend which ones are committments within the franchise agreement? The minimum service pattern also comes into play, those who suggest the Trent Valley service should go to Liverpool rather than two from Birmingham, I think may find that the requirement for 2 an hour each way from Birmingham may well be a fixed requirement.

 

[RealTrains07]

Would you rather, especially @RealTrains07 but this is open to everyone, in a hypothetical scenario if you could choose, on the wobble, have a service to Birmingham New Street or a service to Northampton via the Trent Valley?

There was talk of another train Northampton to Crewe although I don't know if that will ever materialise.

As i have already said previously, i would always prefer a crewe - birmingham
More reliable and chance of better frequency as it could be doubled

 

[RealTrains07]

I'm not sure through services could simply be dropped as some posters are suggesting. Would it not depend which ones are committments within the franchise agreement? The minimum service pattern also comes into play, those who suggest the Trent Valley service should go to Liverpool rather than two from Birmingham, I think may find that the requirement for 2 an hour each way from Birmingham may well be a fixed requirement.

Are franchise requirements really that detailed cause from my perspective LNR had some timetable requirements and all they had to do was just work them into the existing previous timetable

 

[RealTrains07]

Euston-Crewe was mainly kept for Alsager and Kidsgrove also stoke on Trent local were complaining and MPs were involved. I bet now they realise what a mistake we made by fighting for it.

Unfortunately i dont think they all do as the service has been quite reliable minus the few cancellations and delays which i have also been affected by

 

[pt_mad]

Are franchise requirements really that detailed cause from my perspective LNR had some timetable requirements and all they had to do was just work them into the existing previous timetable

I have no idea, but if there is any obligation whatsoever to provide the Stoke wobble with a direct London service then how could this simply be dropped to a Birmingham as some posters are suggesting? There was a document within the West Coast Partnership Invitation to Tender which specified specifically the number of trains which must call where, between which times, going to where. The West Coast Partnership is that specific.

 

[RealTrains07]

I have no idea, but if there is any obligation whatsoever to provide the Stoke wobble with a direct London service then how could this simply be dropped to a Birmingham as some posters are suggesting? There was a document within the West Coast Partnership Invitation to Tender which specified specifically the number of trains which must call where, between which times, going to where. The West Coast Partnership is that specific.

Wouldnt surprise me since the west coast partnership is gonna be the biggest change in franchise for a long time

Keeping a direct london service with the stoke loop was most likely an amendment to the original plan which was crewe to birmingham but thanks for people complaining this is what we ended up with

Could be changed it would just make many commuters really angry which is not as big consequence to breaking a franchise agreement

 

[pt_mad]

Wouldnt surprise me since the west coast partnership is gonna be the biggest change in franchise for a long time

Keeping a direct london service with the stoke loop was most likely an amendment to the original plan which was crewe to birmingham but thanks for people complaining this is what we ended up with

It (may) have been an amendment, but IF it ended up being written into the signed franchise agreement, does it then become a firm requirement of the franchise which cannot be withdrawn?

 

[sufian123]

I have no idea, but if there is any obligation whatsoever to provide the Stoke wobble with a direct London service then how could this simply be dropped to a Birmingham as some posters are suggesting? There was a document within the West Coast Partnership Invitation to Tender which specified specifically the number of trains which must call where, between which times, going to where. The West Coast Partnership is that specific.

Hi

The Euston-Crewe via new st was the only option, after MPs got involved. To make trains longer from new st. If it was original plan standalone new st-Crewe via stoke, then might worked out differently.

 

[DavidGrain]

In the early days of the timetable I watched a Birmingham to London train go out 13 minutes late. There were repeated announcements that this was due to 'congestion'. (Congestion is now the favorite excuse on the Cross City line) In fact there was no train crew until the train was already 8 minutes late. I can only assume that the 'congestion' was on an inbound train that they were on.

I have heard on another occasion the truthful excuse that a XC train would be delayed because the driver was on a late running inbound train. I have also hear the same excuse in Sweden so it is not a problem peculiar to this operation.

Walsall have been promised London trains for years but the question that I would ask is why should LNR which is a long distance service be expected to operate local services which are WMR responsibility from Rugeley to Birmingham. This timetable makes an even bigger mockery of the 'split' than the previous timetable.

 

[sufian123]

In the early days of the timetable I watched a Birmingham to London train go out 13 minutes late. There were repeated announcements that this was due to 'congestion'. (Congestion is now the favorite excuse on the Cross City line) In fact there was no train crew until the train was already 8 minutes late. I can only assume that the 'congestion' was on an inbound train that they were on.

I have heard on another occasion the truthful excuse that a XC train would be delayed because the driver was on a late running inbound train. I have also hear the same excuse in Sweden so it is not a problem peculiar to this operation.

Walsall have been promised London trains for years but the question that I would ask is why should LNR which is a long distance service be expected to operate local services which are WMR responsibility from Rugeley to Birmingham. This timetable makes an even bigger mockery of the 'split' than the previous timetable.

LNR does provide the London services. WMR still provides the local services. It’s coming from Euston as LNR. Then spilts with LNR unit acts as WMR and the other solely as LNR to rugeley.

 

[si404]

I'm not sure through services could simply be dropped as some posters are suggesting. Would it not depend which ones are committments within the franchise agreement?

Indeed - though, IMV, the main issue (complex diagramming) wasn't a necessity of the franchise agreement. Three London trains, three north of Birmingham destinations, Rugeley or Liverpool could link with the airport shuttle, the other terminate at New Street as before.

The minimum service pattern also comes into play, those who suggest the Trent Valley service should go to Liverpool rather than two from Birmingham, I think may find that the requirement for 2 an hour each way from Birmingham may well be a fixed requirement.

The extension of TV trains to Liverpool is surely just an exacerbation of the trying to capture some of the long distance market. Also, I think it would be deeply unpopular near the Mersey to lope off half their 2tph link to the nation's premier rail hub, even if they gain a slow (but not really really slow like the via Northampton and Birmingham) train to the capital.

 

[RealTrains07]

It (may) have been an amendment, but IF it ended up being written into the signed franchise agreement, does it then become a firm requirement of the franchise which cannot be withdrawn?

I guess we will see what happens, i cant see the route lasting longer than this franchise at least

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm on the 1724 off Euston, one which even as an 8 car I'd expect to be heaving on a sunny Saturday, but it's nearly empty. On time too, which is one for the books.

Is word getting around how bad things are getting?

 

[RealTrains07]

I'm on the 1724 off Euston, one which even as an 8 car I'd expect to be heaving on a sunny Saturday, but it's nearly empty. On time too, which is one for the books.

Is word getting around how bad things are getting?

Where did your train start from?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where did your train start from?

Euston

 

[RealTrains07]

Euston

Opps, meant to say where is your train going to?

 

[RT4038]

I'm on the 1724 off Euston, one which even as an 8 car I'd expect to be heaving on a sunny Saturday, but it's nearly empty. On time too, which is one for the books.

Is word getting around how bad things are getting?

I think you might find that some previous trains to yours departed a little late due to 'trespasser on the line at Northampton'. Perhaps these took some of the passengers from the 17h24. There seems to be plenty of extra carriages in use now, compared to the previous timetable.
I've made a number of journeys on the new timetable LNR London-Birmingham/Trent Valley section and found them mostly punctual - not particularly different to the previous iteration. Maybe I'm just lucky. Meltdowns were not exactly unknown before!