LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

[Glenn1969]

If the DfT forced the timetable on WMT/LNR a is it actually LNRs fault and b actually is there anything they can do about it in December even if they wanted to?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the DfT forced the timetable on WMT/LNR a is it actually LNRs fault and b actually is there anything they can do about it in December even if they wanted to?

As with GTR, they can and should implement an emergency timetable (i.e. planned cancellations and lengthenings) they can operate punctually and reliably using the stock and staff they have, and an action plan to recruit and train staff and obtain additional stock (Scotland have finished with those ex-GTR EMUs, no?) with a timescale for return to the original plans but with a looser set of diagrams (which aren't themselves immutable).

I would suggest in the short term the easiest, lowest-impact way to do this is probably to split some services at Northampton.

And yes it is the TOC's fault. They bid to deliver it at the price they bid. If it was unaffordable or undeliverable, they shouldn't have bid it.

 

[sufian123]

If the DfT forced the timetable on WMT/LNR a is it actually LNRs fault and b actually is there anything they can do about it in December even if they wanted to?

As a franchise obligation they needed to implant major timetable change. Diagraming was in hands of lnwr management. DFT sets what services should be and what they want to see. Emergency timetable, senior management could do, they sat doing nothing!

 

[RealTrains07]

Signal faults south WCML today, at the start i thought it was okay as it looked contained for split services as only cancellations and delays were happening south but then it soon spread up north. Rugeley as usual was troubled by the timetable once again.

LNR could surely find a way to contain issues in 1 part of the route instead of it spreading??
It managed a few times with cancelling london - crewe splitter from london - brum then sending a train from brum northwards. Preventing the whole service from being cancelled

 

[Bletchleyite]

It managed a few times with cancelling london - crewe splitter from london - brum then sending a train from brum northwards. Preventing the whole service from being cancelled

Splitting at Northampton is a good idea, but not when you don't provide any trains going south from Northampton for an hour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1746 AND 1752 off Euston canned.

Ridiculous.

 

[RealTrains07]

1746 AND 1752 off Euston canned.

Ridiculous.

14:49 being terminated early at northampton

Extra train to cover second haff between brum and liverpool delayed at brum

Second extra service now on route but still delayed

 

[Silverlinky]

A large number of Guards jobs uncovered today, don't know why. More problems on the horizon as quite a few guards have applied to be trainee drivers, and I think there are a couple of courses starting this year.
Lots of drivers and few guards?

 

[adrock1976]

This has got me thinking about the phrase that the DfT had mentioned in the Invitation to Tender document "reduce the number of trains terminating at Birmingham New Street".

Looking at how the timetable is falling apart at any sign of disruption, I believe perhaps that the DfT phrase had missed one crucial word, with that being the inventor of the combustion engine. I.e. "reduce the number of diesel trains terminating at Birmingham New Street".

Being as it is diesel trains that cause air quality issues at New Street and electric trains terminating do not seem to cause problems in that aspect, perhaps the Leicester local all stations could have been transferred to LNWR and joined up with the Hereford via Bromsgrove, and the Shrewsbury locals doing the balloon loop via Soho-Perry Barr or Aston being as the Rugeley via Walsall is fully electric?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A large number of Guards jobs uncovered today, don't know why. More problems on the horizon as quite a few guards have applied to be trainee drivers, and I think there are a couple of courses starting this year.
Lots of drivers and few guards?

I can't help but think why this might be.

 

[Starmill]

I can't help but think why this might be.

What are you suggesting?

 

[Silverlinky]

I can't help but think why this might be.

D_O ?

 

[VT 390]

This has got me thinking about the phrase that the DfT had mentioned in the Invitation to Tender document "reduce the number of trains terminating at Birmingham New Street".

Looking at how the timetable is falling apart at any sign of disruption, I believe perhaps that the DfT phrase had missed one crucial word, with that being the inventor of the combustion engine. I.e. "reduce the number of diesel trains terminating at Birmingham New Street".

Being as it is diesel trains that cause air quality issues at New Street and electric trains terminating do not seem to cause problems in that aspect, perhaps the Leicester local all stations could have been transferred to LNWR and joined up with the Hereford via Bromsgrove, and the Shrewsbury locals doing the balloon loop via Soho-Perry Barr or Aston being as the Rugeley via Walsall is fully electric?

I do agree that Diesels should not be terminated at New Street but I do not think that a journeys such that like Hereford to Leicester are a good idea as single track is involved on this route and will increase the chance of a delay on that route more than others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

D_O ?

Ding!

 

[causton]

Weird, as I know a large number of trainee guards who passed out very recently, one working his first train solo today!

 

[DavidGrain]

I’ve heard from a conductor, senior management don’t care, they not listening to passengers and staff. I can’t wait for dft to get involved!

What makes you think DaFT are not involved? It was probably all their idea in the first place. Anyway who ever is PM soon I expect Failing Grayling doesn't have much longer in his job.

 

[bionic]

For all the conspiracy theories about DOO, its not something that can be brought in imminently.

On guarded routes with older trains (all over the UK) there is no platform or train-borne DOO equipment. Any attempt to bring in DOO on a network like WMT/LNR is going to need a serious amount of infrastructure improvements or an entire brand new fleet, as well as agreements to be reached with both drivers and guards trade unions. DOO is not something that can be brought in overnight. The fact a few guards turns are uncovered does not mean DOO is imminent... It simply means a few guards turns are uncovered.

 

[DavidGrain]

This has got me thinking about the phrase that the DfT had mentioned in the Invitation to Tender document "reduce the number of trains terminating at Birmingham New Street".

Looking at how the timetable is falling apart at any sign of disruption, I believe perhaps that the DfT phrase had missed one crucial word, with that being the inventor of the combustion engine. I.e. "reduce the number of diesel trains terminating at Birmingham New Street".

Being as it is diesel trains that cause air quality issues at New Street and electric trains terminating do not seem to cause problems in that aspect, perhaps the Leicester local all stations could have been transferred to LNWR and joined up with the Hereford via Bromsgrove, and the Shrewsbury locals doing the balloon loop via Soho-Perry Barr or Aston being as the Rugeley via Walsall is fully electric?

I thought that the problem with trains terminating at New Street was platform occupancy as dwell times for terminators is much longer than through trains.. Many years ago, it may even have been in BR days the London-Birmingham expresses used to go for a ride round the Soho Loop to get them out of the station. Actually it must have been in BR days because the cleaners used to be on board during this trip. If you look on RTT there are ECS workings New Street to New Street via Camp Hill. XC seem to do this to get to Tyseley

 

[sufian123]

What makes you think DaFT are not involved? It was probably all their idea in the first place. Anyway who ever is PM soon I expect Failing Grayling doesn't have much longer in his job.

Not a single word from them dft that’s why. Your right Grayling goes, I hope next muppet improves it for the public.

 

[E6007]

1746 AND 1752 off Euston canned.

Ridiculous.

As well as 17:30 to Milton Keynes. 17:53 ex Euston must have been heaving, loads of passengers alighted at Milton Keynes and at Wolverton. I was on 18:13 (which ran to time)

Not a good day, although I was lucky!

 

[RealTrains07]

For all the conspiracy theories about DOO, its not something that can be brought in imminently.

On guarded routes with older trains (all over the UK) there is no platform or train-borne DOO equipment. Any attempt to bring in DOO on a network like WMT/LNR is going to need a serious amount of infrastructure improvements or an entire brand new fleet, as well as agreements to be reached with both drivers and guards trade unions. DOO is not something that can be brought in overnight. The fact a few guards turns are uncovered does not mean DOO is imminent... It simply means a few guards turns are uncovered.

What about 730s though, technically thats half the LNR and WMR fleet being replaced with new trains? Are the new bombardier and CAF trains capable of DOO?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As well as 17:30 to Milton Keynes. 17:53 ex Euston must have been heaving, loads of passengers alighted at Milton Keynes and at Wolverton. I was on 18:13 (which ran to time)

Not a good day, although I was lucky!

I was in a rush so I did a naughty double back via MKC (I still think this should be properly legitimised via a MK Group, and indeed the fare I was using was the same from MKC anyway). But this is why planned cancellations are needed - I'd have planned to travel earlier if I'd known of an issue, I even checked just before leaving home!

I note there have been evening cancellations - pretty much unknown under latter day LM.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about 730s though, technically thats half the LNR and WMR fleet being replaced with new trains? Are the new bombardier and CAF trains capable of DOO?

Yes, they will be.

I believe the 350s are being retrofitted too.

 

[700007]

And the debacle continues. 2 fasts cancelled south of Northampton in a row due to staffing issues.

And yet LNR aren't saying anything - this is genuinely getting worse than GTR.

I seriously hope they are haemorrhaging passengers and revenue, and are paying out lots of Delay Repay to ensure they can't be making any money out of this debacle. Those cancellations will mean two trains lopped or short formed in the evening peak from Euston too...other than ongoing issues on the Liverpool-Brum service, LM near enough never cancelled anything.

Very poor.

(I'm aware of the issues at Berko earlier, but it's again the overcomplicated diagrams and timetables that means it isn't possible to recover from that sort of thing quickly enough for an incident in the early afternoon not to make a mess of the evening peak)

I think the timetable is causing more issues than it solves. I was at Harrow & Wealdstone earlier this week waiting for a West Midlands Trains service back to London Euston and the train was losing several minutes that it struggled to recover, because of delays on the previous trip and the trip before that. Something that happened in Birmingham or somewhere like that shouldn't be affecting my train that is originating from Tring!

London Midland were a very good company which transformed travel on this line for the greater good. Lots of then new class 350 trains that are absolutely brilliant, a better timetable and more capacity. The only regular complaint I had against them was 'petty punctuality loss' where my train was regularly up to 5 minutes late and short forms were a big problem they had which was particularly bad if it hit during the high peak. But other than that they were better than the current West Midlands Trains franchise.

 

[700007]

The franchise agreement did want a timetable overhaul and a number of extensions on the London to Birmingham line up to Walsall, which in turn would reduce the amount of trains terminating at Birmingham New Street. It was also agreed with stakeholders that London - Birmingham - Crewe would happen via the wobble following the loss of the direct Trent Valley services.

But there was nothing about having the Walsall trains going all the way to Rugeley, nothing about complex diagramming and portion working, and nothing about direct Liverpool trains. The London to Crewe via Birmingham and the wobble wasn't even a franchise agreement, it was just an agreement at stakeholder levels that were upset. West Midlands Trains did not actually have to do this if it brought commercial, fleet or performance risks to them that weren't justifiable.

Does anyone even use the direct service from the Stoke wobble to London now that it goes via Birmingham? I feel this should just be split at Birmingham in the ideal world.

 

[sufian123]

The franchise agreement did want a timetable overhaul and a number of extensions on the London to Birmingham line up to Walsall, which in turn would reduce the amount of trains terminating at Birmingham New Street. It was also agreed with stakeholders that London - Birmingham - Crewe would happen via the wobble following the loss of the direct Trent Valley services.

But there was nothing about having the Walsall trains going all the way to Rugeley, nothing about complex diagramming and portion working, and nothing about direct Liverpool trains. The London to Crewe via Birmingham and the wobble wasn't even a franchise agreement, it was just an agreement at stakeholder levels that were upset. West Midlands Trains did not actually have to do this if it brought commercial, fleet or performance risks to them that weren't justifiable.

Does anyone even use the direct service from the Stoke wobble to London now that it goes via Birmingham? I feel this should just be split at Birmingham in the ideal world.

It was done to save money. All this could be done other ways. They wanted to save money, by combining and spilling trains. When all this can be separate entity.

I have tried it, it’s good for us as Manchester trains are packed to the brick this has given now option for us to travel via slow train, but at least had a chance of a seat.

 

[Silverlinky]

I think the timetable is causing more issues than it solves. I was at Harrow & Wealdstone earlier this week waiting for a West Midlands Trains service back to London Euston and the train was losing several minutes that it struggled to recover, because of delays on the previous trip and the trip before that. Something that happened in Birmingham or somewhere like that shouldn't be affecting my train that is originating from Tring!

London Midland were a very good company which transformed travel on this line for the greater good. Lots of then new class 350 trains that are absolutely brilliant, a better timetable and more capacity. The only regular complaint I had against them was 'petty punctuality loss' where my train was regularly up to 5 minutes late and short forms were a big problem they had which was particularly bad if it hit during the high peak. But other than that they were better than the current West Midlands Trains franchise.

See, there's the thing!! The Management are still the same, the staff are still the same, the units are still the same....whats changed? The timetable!

Interesting to know though whether you think this downturn is a recent thing..ie since the timetable change, or whether you noticed many changes in the first 18 months of WMT (before the timetable change)

 

[Bletchleyite]

London Midland were a very good company which transformed travel on this line for the greater good. Lots of then new class 350 trains that are absolutely brilliant, a better timetable and more capacity. The only regular complaint I had against them was 'petty punctuality loss' where my train was regularly up to 5 minutes late and short forms were a big problem they had which was particularly bad if it hit during the high peak. But other than that they were better than the current West Midlands Trains franchise.

To be fair LM did have issues, primarily with short-forms, in the early days - I think the ex-Central Trains Control in Birmingham had no clue about how to operate the south WCML when it was dumped on them having previously been controlled fully by Silverlink from Bletchley (I think) on a much simpler timetable which was mostly split at Northampton. But fundamentally the timetable was structurally sound and the service did recover and, apart from the tendency to run 4-car sets on weekends to save money on the 350/2s LM were in the end a pretty well-run TOC.

I am not convinced this is going to happen this time - like Northern, they have simply way overstretched and overcomplicated it, and the only way to recover that will be to change it completely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting to know though whether you think this downturn is a recent thing..ie since the timetable change, or whether you noticed many changes in the first 18 months of WMT (before the timetable change)

I found some sloppiness in the early days, e.g. the formations were not as accurate on the PIS displays as before (something LM were absolutely 100% at) - but primarily it was roughly the same.

Only with the change of timetable did the service completely collapse and has not really recovered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about 730s though, technically thats half the LNR and WMR fleet being replaced with new trains? Are the new bombardier and CAF trains capable of DOO?

I thought the 350s were being retrofitted at refurb. I don't know what has happened with regard to the unions etc yet (though I am bracing myself for a long period of strikes), but I'm sure I heard that Abellio were planning to move to a "DCO with OBS" type arrangement. That said, I've seen nothing in writing about it, and I'm sure the mods don't want this thread to become a DOO debate...

All new stock is to be DOO capable - the DfT have mandated this to be the case for ongoing flexibility even if it will not initially be operated in this way. The 230s seem to be an odd exception to this.