LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

[IrishDave]

Yet both departing New Street at the same time from the same platform by the looks of it albeit in different directions at 15:21. Can the routes be set and called at the same time?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BHM/2019/05/22/1521

Yes - simultaneous departures from opposite ends of the same platform at New Street are permitted, even if it's confusing for the passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet both departing New Street at the same time from the same platform by the looks of it albeit in different directions at 15:21. Can the routes be set and called at the same time?

The ATOS PIS is certainly capable of showing a split, though I completely forget how it shows a split *at that station*, I've never stood at Northampton (the place where LNR up to now tend to do it) and watched!

Prior to the split station it shows using the & notation with the destination over two lines and also announces it correctly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes - simultaneous departures from opposite ends of the same platform at New Street are permitted, even if it's confusing for the passenger.

That's a bit different, as in that case the platforms are delimited as A and B.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The question is: Is RTT capable of showing splits & couplings? Take the first example you give. This shows a train at Colchester coming in from London Liverpool Street and continuing to Clacton. It also show a second train with a different train number leaving three minutes later from the same platform for Harwich. It does not show where the stock came from for the second train but most of us on this forum can work that out.

Yes, but the journey planners can't. And if they can't, a journey plan will give you nonsense like that journey plan for Ormskirk to Blackpool South I showed above, which shows the journey taking 62 minutes longer than it actually does (because it is in fact a through train). That must be putting people off doing that journey.

As per the link I posted, yes, RTT is capable of showing splits and joins provided they are entered properly in the first place.

 

[DavidGrain]

If a train from Euston splits at New Street with one portion going to Liverpool and the other portion going to Rugeley and they both depart at the same time that means that the Rugeley portion will depart eastwards out of New Street. At present Rugeley trains normally depart westwards out of New Street running nonstop to Hamstead via the Soho Loop.

Does this mean that some Walsall 'all stations' will be going to Rugeley or that Rugeley trains will have to mix it with the Cross City and Walsall trains on the New Street-Aston section?

 

[sufian123]

If a train from Euston splits at New Street with one portion going to Liverpool and the other portion going to Rugeley and they both depart at the same time that means that the Rugeley portion will depart eastwards out of New Street. At present Rugeley trains normally depart westwards out of New Street running nonstop to Hamstead via the Soho Loop.

Does this mean that some Walsall 'all stations' will be going to Rugeley or that Rugeley trains will have to mix it with the Cross City and Walsall trains on the New Street-Aston section?

In late evenings/mornings yes. During the day, it will run non stop via Aston instead of via Soho. Stops are still the same, on the Rugeley services. While the new Crewe service departs via Sandwell.

 

[sufian123]

In late evenings/mornings yes. During the day, it will run non stop via Aston instead of via Soho. Stops are still the same, on the Rugeley services. While the new Crewe service departs via Sandwell.

Walsall-Wolverhampton continues calls all stations via Aston as normal.

 

[RealTrains07]

LNR and WMR services going via stoke-on-trent seem to be a bit thin on the ground comapared to everywhere else

Was hoping for more trains tbh :/

 

[RealTrains07]

It won't make any difference from Liverpool/Runcorn, they could previously miss the "wobble" out by changing at Stafford anyway, and at least some will choose the (very slow) through service anyway.

It'll be less convenient from Manchester than changing at Stoke.

Some people from Stoke and other stations around the "wobble" will give up on it and drive/switch to VT.

So I'm not sure it will make all that much difference. The sole reason for doing it is to be able to lengthen.

Many people do heavily rely on LNR services along the “wobble” to get them to places. Shouldn’t be singled out tbh

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many people do heavily rely on LNR services along the “wobble” to get them to places. Shouldn’t be singled out tbh

The need for 8 car working outweighs this, I'm afraid.

 

[Deafdoggie]

LNR and WMR services going via stoke-on-trent seem to be a bit thin on the ground comapared to everywhere else

Was hoping for more trains tbh :/

There aren't any less, just that there aren't any more. Still hourly.

 

[louis97]

The question is: Is RTT capable of showing splits & couplings? Take the first example you give. This shows a train at Colchester coming in from London Liverpool Street and continuing to Clacton. It also show a second train with a different train number leaving three minutes later from the same platform for Harwich. It does not show where the stock came from for the second train but most of us on this forum can work that out. Now I and I am sure that many of us who use RTT would love them to show where the stock came from for each train and what happened to the stock when it reached its destination. But as I look at RTT it has a data base which works on train numbers and that is a limitation that we have to accept for the time being. Ideally RTT should show the previous train number for the stock and the subsequent train number for when it completes it journey but we do not yet have that refinement.

However the important point is that the departure boards at Liverpool Street will show the front carriages for Clacton and the rear carriages for Harwich

RTT is very much capable of showing split and joins, however it has to be set up in the data correctly. RTT only shows information from/based on the data it receives. Therefore for any previous, next, detaching and attaching service information to be shown it has to be setup correctly by the TOCs/NR. Therefore any splitting/attaching that is not being advertised is out of our control.

 

[VT 390]

The need for 8 car working outweighs this, I'm afraid.

Could the service not run 8 carriage to Stafford and divide here with 4 to Crewe (direct) and 4 to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent. Alternatively why could selective door operation not be used?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could the service not run 8 carriage to Stafford and divide here with 4 to Crewe (direct) and 4 to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent.

I suppose it *could* do that, but would splitting/joining and delays cause issues at Stafford?

Alternatively why could selective door operation not be used?

Because the back end of the train would hang over the junction at Stone, to name one, possibly also a level crossing issue?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I suppose it *could* do that, but would splitting/joining and delays cause issues at Stafford?

I think it probably could be done fairly quickly and efficiently. But timing the two units to then reunite at Crewe for the return to meet at Stafford is probably the hard part.

Because the back end of the train would hang over the junction at Stone, to name one, possibly also a level crossing issue?

Stone used to have a footpath over the tracks at the South end of the station, this has now been replaced by a bridge. So 8 car could stop there for that reason. But I believe the issue is to do with SDO only being the front unit on 350's? So that would leave 'up' trains fouling the junction. Same issue at Kidsgrove, but in the 'Down' direction. I guess Alsager could be used, but seems hardly worth it if Stone and Kidsgrove not!

If money were no object, platform extensions could be built at all locations. But again, not really worth it, much as I would love it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW I could also see some confusion where the trains are shown as "Crewe & Crewe", and "London Euston & London Euston" - one of the few cases where I might support a false destination!

 

[VT 390]

FWIW I could also see some confusion where the trains are shown as "Crewe & Crewe", and "London Euston & London Euston" - one of the few cases where I might support a false destination!

Because the route via Stoke is longer to Crewe it could be announced as Crewe & Alsager northbound and Stone & London Euston southbound.

 

[RealTrains07]

The need for 8 car working outweighs this, I'm afraid.

I know. Just could do with more than 1 train an hour from bi

I suppose it *could* do that, but would splitting/joining and delays cause issues at Stafford?



Because the back end of the train would hang over the junction at Stone, to name one, possibly also a level crossing issue?

Wouldnt say it would be a crossing issue since the foot crossings no longer exist in the area
however it probs would cause unessesary delay at stafford

 

[RealTrains07]

Meant to say more than 1 an hour from stone

Could do with a WMR service between birmingham and crewe operating alongside the LNR one to london during the weeks tbh, especially useful in exam season especially if when trains are cancelled and delayed their is a second option for a train, The “wobble” serves often isolated places except stoke.
Considering this timetable starts more or less in exam season having it go wrong would be a big disaster.

 

[DavidGrain]

Could the service not run 8 carriage to Stafford and divide here with 4 to Crewe (direct) and 4 to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent. Alternatively why could selective door operation not be used?

I suspect that Stafford is not a crew change point so crews would have to ride 'on the cushions' to and from Crewe

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I suspect that Stafford is not a crew change point so crews would have to ride 'on the cushions' to and from Crewe

Correct, Stafford isn't a depot for any TOC.

 

[Idon'tKnow]

I do hope we get a reasonable amount of 8 carriage trains all day on the Trent valley in the new timetable, standing room only between Lichfield/Tamworth and Euston is unacceptable, yet we've had to put up with it for a long time.

 

[sufian123]

I do hope we get a reasonable amount of 8 carriage trains all day on the Trent valley in the new timetable, standing room only between Lichfield/Tamworth and Euston is unacceptable, yet we've had to put up with it for a long time.

Plan is all day 8 cars on the Trent valley. I doubt there be times, 4 cars making appearances.

 

[Idon'tKnow]

Plan is all day 8 cars on the Trent valley. I doubt there be times, 4 cars making appearances.

I shouldn't have trusted the Coventry telegraph lol.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-news-train-timetable-changes-15869438

"In Rugby meanwhile, some services to Crewe (via Rugby) from London Euston will be increased to eight carriages - this is due to these services operating direct between Stafford and Crewe."

 

[sufian123]

I shouldn't have trusted the Coventry telegraph lol.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-news-train-timetable-changes-15869438

"In Rugby meanwhile, some services to Crewe (via Rugby) from London Euston will be increased to eight carriages - this is due to these services operating direct between Stafford and Crewe."

They should all right. Part of franchise agreement.

 

[Class 170101]

Splitting at Stafford is possible if LNR wanted to do it. Indeed they did with a previous timetable. The 16:46 (IIRC) Euston to Crewe did it for a while. The rear unit either ran ECS to Crewe or New Street I believe.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Splitting at Stafford is possible if LNR wanted to do it. Indeed they did with a previous timetable. The 16:46 (IIRC) Euston to Crewe did it for a while. The rear unit either ran ECS to Crewe or New Street I believe.

It did-but the crew travelled passenger from Euston to Stafford! Not particularly effective for an hourly service. Stafford is not a crew depot for any TOC, so has no crew facilities at all.

 

[sd0733]

It did-but the crew travelled passenger from Euston to Stafford! Not particularly effective for an hourly service. Stafford is not a crew depot for any TOC, so has no crew facilities at all.

Nobody travelled from Euston to do that. It was a Crewe job for drivers and guards. Best shift we ever had, pass to Stafford, close the doors and gangway doors, pass on the ecs back to Crewe!! It was highly inneficient but not helped by differences in Silverlink/Central duties at the time. It was an ex-silverlink guard and an ex-central driver which meant nobody did the gangway doors as at the time Central guards and Silverlink drivers did the gangway doors. Now all the drivers do it.

 

[Ianno87]

It did-but the crew travelled passenger from Euston to Stafford! Not particularly effective for an hourly service. Stafford is not a crew depot for any TOC, so has no crew facilities at all.

And was only done on the 1646 as crowding on it as a 4 car from Euston would have been very high.

 

[sd0733]

And was only done on the 1646 as crowding on it as a 4 car from Euston would have been very high.

I seem to remember when it was a 4 car it was the countries most overcrowded train with a loading of around 200% IIRC