LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

[Bletchleyite]

Am I the only one that thinks this is insanity? Why does a Liverpool Lime St - London Euston need to call at Hemel Hempstead??
Will anyone sit on a 350 for 4 hours + just to scrimp and save a few pounds off a Virgin ticket? Can someone give me a rational business or practical case to have through trains like these? I don't see anything wrong with the current timetable, although the Crewe via New St and the Trent Valley fast direct London - Crewe seem like a good idea. Reliability will seriously be affected, long through trains aren't all necessary or practical loadings and reliability-wise as NXEA found out with through Lowestoft/Peterborough to London Liv St services.

I've answered this on the other thread you posted it to.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The RealTime Trains data is right for the timetables from May 2019. I was reading through the investment strategy final version for the West Midlands (released in January 2019) when it says on Page 29 on the right hand side under Short Term Stratgey (2018-2025)

Through services to London (May 19) with direct services from Rugeley, Walsall and Liverpool to London via Birmingham.

Crewe to Birmingham (via Stoke-on-Trent) new services (May 19)

http://www.westmidlandsrail.com/media/14045/west-midlands-rail-report-final-version-jan-2019.pdf

 

[Deafdoggie]

Am I the only one that thinks this is insanity? Why does a Liverpool Lime St - London Euston need to call at Hemel Hempstead??
Will anyone sit on a 350 for 4 hours + just to scrimp and save a few pounds off a Virgin ticket? Can someone give me a rational business or practical case to have through trains like these? I don't see anything wrong with the current timetable, although the Crewe via New St and the Trent Valley fast direct London - Crewe seem like a good idea. Reliability will seriously be affected, long through trains aren't all necessary or practical loadings and reliability-wise as NXEA found out with through Lowestoft/Peterborough to London Liv St services.

For some people "A few Quid" is a big deal. And it is likely to be a lot more than that in savings with advances anyway. They are not primarily done to provide a through service, that is just a bonus. The main purpose is to stop trains terminating at New Street and taking up through platforms. See it as a number of local trains joined together into one service, and the stops make more sense. Just because a train has a destination, doesn't mean everyone has to go there, there will, I imagine, be a large turnover of passengers on these trains. That is not to say there will not be through passengers, but I suspect few will do the entire journey.

 

[Ianno87]

For some people "A few Quid" is a big deal. And it is likely to be a lot more than that in savings with advances anyway. They are not primarily done to provide a through service, that is just a bonus. The main purpose is to stop trains terminating at New Street and taking up through platforms. See it as a number of local trains joined together into one service, and the stops make more sense. Just because a train has a destination, doesn't mean everyone has to go there, there will, I imagine, be a large turnover of passengers on these trains. That is not to say there will not be through passengers, but I suspect few will do the entire journey.

It's not just about the headline long-distance journeys; through West Midlands journeys like Stafford-Birmingham International or Penkridge to Coventry will have more options too; if anything benefitting more 'typical' passengers than the longest journeys.

 

[Kite159]

For some people "A few Quid" is a big deal. And it is likely to be a lot more than that in savings with advances anyway. They are not primarily done to provide a through service, that is just a bonus. The main purpose is to stop trains terminating at New Street and taking up through platforms. See it as a number of local trains joined together into one service, and the stops make more sense. Just because a train has a destination, doesn't mean everyone has to go there, there will, I imagine, be a large turnover of passengers on these trains. That is not to say there will not be through passengers, but I suspect few will do the entire journey.

The only folk doing the full journey from Liverpool - Birmingham - Euston will be on dirt cheap advance tickets. Most who are travelling on "West Midlands Railway only" tickets will change at Crewe for the faster service via the Trent Valley.

 

[DavidGrain]

It is wrong to think that the majority of passengers want end to end journeys. I have the problem sometimes on late night journeys on WMR trains when there is a 2 car unit on a Birmingham to Worcester Shrub Hill train. Very few passengers want to go to Shrub Hill but there are 14 stations in between and the train is absolutely rammed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only folk doing the full journey from Liverpool - Birmingham - Euston will be on dirt cheap advance tickets. Most who are travelling on "West Midlands Railway only" tickets will change at Crewe for the faster service via the Trent Valley.

Once there's enough capacity on it. Personally when doing that journey (to/from Bletchley) I tend to go via New St due to the better facilities than Crewe, and most likely still will "break" it there (to use station facilities) as I'll need to change somewhere as the through service isn't one that calls at Bletchley except a couple of times a day. If I was in a hurry I'd cough up for VT.

Now extending the Crewe service through to Liverpool...that would make a mess of things for VT!

 

[700007]

One of the other things that you have to remember is that the London Northwestern Railway service is supposed to be the *slow*, local stopping service wherever it goes which is why it is justified to have a Liverpool train stop at Hemel Hempstead as you said in the example.

If you want a proper fast, intercity, express service then I think Virgin Trains will be your friend (and your wallet's!)

 

[xtradj]

Any reason why real-time shows Lime St services from Birmingham International inward but only to Birmingham New Street outward?

 

[xtradj]

Am I the only one that thinks this is insanity? Why does a Liverpool Lime St - London Euston need to call at Hemel Hempstead??
Will anyone sit on a 350 for 4 hours + just to scrimp and save a few pounds off a Virgin ticket? Can someone give me a rational business or practical case to have through trains like these? I don't see anything wrong with the current timetable, although the Crewe via New St and the Trent Valley fast direct London - Crewe seem like a good idea. Reliability will seriously be affected, long through trains aren't all necessary or practical loadings and reliability-wise as NXEA found out with through Lowestoft/Peterborough to London Liv St services.

People will do the full journey for sure

It’s mainly however two services split into one. Lots will use Birmingham to Liverpool and Birmingham to London

As well as various other journeys

 

[sd0733]

Any reason why real-time shows Lime St services from Birmingham International inward but only to Birmingham New Street outward?

Thats how it is, there is lots of interworking/coupling/uncoupling so it is right. The liverpool-birmingham will couple with a Rugeley to london at new streer whilst the international-liverpool is formed from a Rugeley-International.

 

[sufian123]

Thats how it is, there is lots of interworking/coupling/uncoupling so it is right. The liverpool-birmingham will couple with a Rugeley to london at new streer whilst the international-liverpool is formed from a Rugeley-International.

Liverpool to Birmingham will couple with Crewe to Euston ones. Look at the platforms of them. They spilt from Euston-Crewe. One portion going to Rugeley and one portion to crewe. Your right about the latter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool to Birmingham will couple with Crewe to Euston ones. Look at the platforms of them. They spilt from Euston-Crewe. One portion going to Rugeley and one portion to crewe. Your right about the latter.

That's good as it at least means a guaranteed all-day 8-car working with no temptation to form it down to 4.

Does raise the question why they are not correctly entered as portion-worked, though.

 

[sufian123]

That's good as it at least means a guaranteed all-day 8-car working with no temptation to form it down to 4.

Does raise the question why they are not correctly entered as portion-worked, though.

Not to confuse passengers, I’m guessing. Liverpool to Birmingham, terminates at new st, then couples with another service. Then uncouples en route from Euston. They all will be classed as separate services. In the timetable, maybe they won’t be shown as through services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not to confuse passengers, I’m guessing. Liverpool to Birmingham, terminates at new st, then couples with another service. Then uncouples en route from Euston. They all will be classed as separate services. In the timetable, maybe they won’t be shown as through services.

This causes all sorts of trouble - like the Ormskirk-Preston-Blackpool South-Colne-Preston-Ormskirk group not being shown as through services. Because typically the service doesn't wait at the "terminus" long enough to be a valid connection, journey plans give you sub-optimal connections - so if, for instance, you plan an Ormskirk-Blackpool South journey you're left waiting at Preston for an hour but in fact get there earlier as it's the same train.

And then there's you getting off unnecessarily and losing your seat.

I see it still has not been fixed:

Journey plan Ormskirk-Blackpool S showing a completely unnecessary 62 minute wait at Preston.

If it operates through it needs to be shown as doing so. Last thing we need is more of this idiocy.

 

[xtradj]

Thats how it is, there is lots of interworking/coupling/uncoupling so it is right. The liverpool-birmingham will couple with a Rugeley to london at new streer whilst the international-liverpool is formed from a Rugeley-International.

So why does the Liverpool to Euston service show even though that couples?

It should still show Liverpool to International as that is its final destination even though that couples

Just as the Liverpool to Euston shows

 

[sd0733]

So why does the Liverpool to Euston service show even though that couples?

It should still show Liverpool to International as that is its final destination even though that couples

Just as the Liverpool to Euston shows

It could do in the timetable, RTT is headcode based so if its 1 headcode from Euston to Liverpool and detaches it will show as a through working, if there is a headcode Liverpool to Birmingham and a Crewe to Euston which join only 1 portion will show as the through train. When the public version of the timetables come out it may or may not be presented differently to that on RTT

 

[xtradj]

It could do in the timetable, RTT is headcode based so if its 1 headcode from Euston to Liverpool and detaches it will show as a through working, if there is a headcode Liverpool to Birmingham and a Crewe to Euston which join only 1 portion will show as the through train. When the public version of the timetables come out it may or may not be presented differently to that on RTT

That makes sense. I’d imagine on the boards it will show international to avoid confusion

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could do in the timetable, RTT is headcode based so if its 1 headcode from Euston to Liverpool and detaches it will show as a through working, if there is a headcode Liverpool to Birmingham and a Crewe to Euston which join only 1 portion will show as the through train. When the public version of the timetables come out it may or may not be presented differently to that on RTT

RTT generally does show splits correctly, e.g.:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P16405/2019/02/27

 

[87015]

One of the other things that you have to remember is that the London Northwestern Railway service is supposed to be the *slow*, local stopping service wherever it goes which is why it is justified to have a Liverpool train stop at Hemel Hempstead as you said in the example.

If you want a proper fast, intercity, express service then I think Virgin Trains will be your friend (and your wallet's!)

Which would be great if they weren’t sacrificing the slow local service for the great revenue grab on advance tickets.

Going to be hard to see the “WCML is full” claims when the peak hour coaches in/out of Euston is reduced from May. Let alone these are on trains they already have as double red on the loading posters - 1713 departure, cough, to go with the half empty Pendos at that time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which would be great if they weren’t sacrificing the slow local service for the great revenue grab on advance tickets.

Going to be hard to see the “WCML is full” claims when the peak hour coaches in/out of Euston is reduced from May. Let alone these are on trains they already have as double red on the loading posters - 1713 departure, cough, to go with the half empty Pendos at that time.

There are the odd few trains which could go from 12 to 8 without major issues, but not many. Is there a plan for a significant number of reductions in formation? I thought the plan was that more 319s (most or all Tring stoppers being 319) would solve that.

 

[87015]

There are the odd few trains which could go from 12 to 8 without major issues, but not many. Is there a plan for a significant number of reductions in formation? I thought the plan was that more 319s (most or all Tring stoppers being 319) would solve that.

The loading poster plainly disagrees there are four coaches of empty space available
https://www.londonnorthwesternrailw...Bh_MzI9WXntTB8/london_euston_may_2018_tmc.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

The loading poster plainly disagrees there are four coaches of empty space available
https://www.londonnorthwesternrailw...Bh_MzI9WXntTB8/london_euston_may_2018_tmc.pdf

I think whoever did that poster did it from near the barrier line. So many people can't be bothered walking forwards.

 

[87015]

I think whoever did that poster did it from near the barrier line. So many people can't be bothered walking forwards.

It’s based on passenger counts for the train vs allocated number of seats. Nothing to do with unequal distribution! A handful of seats at the front against more standing at the back is neither here not there.

 

[87015]

319s go to 12cars (on paper - short forms ahoy as now no doubt) so will just been even more of a liability than they are now. The ridiculously slow guard agreements for station duties mean 12-car 350s rarely keep time so they haven’t a chance with 319s staggering around.

 

[sd0733]

RTT generally does show splits correctly, e.g.:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P16405/2019/02/27

Yes just looked it shows Splits and joins for Machynlleth even with different headcodes, didnt realise it could do that.

Chances are then its just going to be confusion at New Street.

 

[Class 170101]

Its not foolproof.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L70963/2019/05/22

This one should show a split at Colchester for Clacton and Harwich Town, yet it doesn't.

Also is this one a splitter for Crewe and Rugeley at Birmingham New Street?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P44780/2019/05/22/advanced

Yet both departing New Street at the same time from the same platform by the looks of it albeit in different directions at 15:21. Can the routes be set and called at the same time?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BHM/2019/05/22/1521

 

[DavidGrain]

Its not foolproof.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L70963/2019/05/22

This one should show a split at Colchester for Clacton and Harwich Town, yet it doesn't.

Also is this one a splitter for Crewe and Rugeley at Birmingham New Street?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P44780/2019/05/22/advanced

Yet both departing New Street at the same time from the same platform by the looks of it albeit in different directions at 15:21. Can the routes be set and called at the same time?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BHM/2019/05/22/1521

The question is: Is RTT capable of showing splits & couplings? Take the first example you give. This shows a train at Colchester coming in from London Liverpool Street and continuing to Clacton. It also show a second train with a different train number leaving three minutes later from the same platform for Harwich. It does not show where the stock came from for the second train but most of us on this forum can work that out. Now I and I am sure that many of us who use RTT would love them to show where the stock came from for each train and what happened to the stock when it reached its destination. But as I look at RTT it has a data base which works on train numbers and that is a limitation that we have to accept for the time being. Ideally RTT should show the previous train number for the stock and the subsequent train number for when it completes it journey but we do not yet have that refinement.

However the important point is that the departure boards at Liverpool Street will show the front carriages for Clacton and the rear carriages for Harwich

 

[Kite159]

The question is: Is RTT capable of showing splits & couplings? Take the first example you give. This shows a train at Colchester coming in from London Liverpool Street and continuing to Clacton. It also show a second train with a different train number leaving three minutes later from the same platform for Harwich. It does not show where the stock came from for the second train but most of us on this forum can work that out. Now I and I am sure that many of us who use RTT would love them to show where the stock came from for each train and what happened to the stock when it reached its destination. But as I look at RTT it has a data base which works on train numbers and that is a limitation that we have to accept for the time being. Ideally RTT should show the previous train number for the stock and the subsequent train number for when it completes it journey but we do not yet have that refinement.

However the important point is that the departure boards at Liverpool Street will show the front carriages for Clacton and the rear carriages for Harwich

Something like this for splits?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W90708/2019/02/27

 

[DavidGrain]

Something like this for splits?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W90708/2019/02/27

Have not seen that before. Thanks