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LNER 225 Shortening/Overnight Testing

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hexagon789

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This may have been mentioned but if so I can't find it after trawling the thread - which 1st coach is being removed? I'm guessing it's the one next to the DVT (coach M) since the other two have the accessible toilet (L) and the crew area (K) respectively?
Good question, removing the PO (Coach M, the others being POD and POP) would seem most logical as, mentioned by yourself, it doesn't have the accessible toilet or crew area.

Also, one TO is being removed not sure which of the 3 though.

On this basis, a 225 set would then be:

DVT-POD-POP-SV-TOD-TO-TO-TOE-91

DVT - Driving Van Trailer
PO - Pullman Open
POD - Pullman Open Disabled
SV - Service Vehicle
TOD - Tourist Open Disabled
TO - Tourist Open
TOE - Tourist Open End
 
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43 302

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This may have been mentioned but if so I can't find it after trawling the thread - which 1st coach is being removed? I'm guessing it's the one next to the DVT (coach M) since the other two have the accessible toilet (L) and the crew area (K) respectively?
Find out on Sunday (or just look at the seating plan for 1A26).
 

800001

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Others may disagree, but I think so.

Or at the very least, intended to be so.

The seat map definitely shows no Coach M or E present on the service.
You would think they would wait until as close to the new timetable before they start running around as 7 cars.
 

MrJeeves

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Others may disagree, but I think so.

Or at the very least, intended to be so.

The seat map definitely shows no Coach M or E present on the service.
It's far more likely that they've simply amended the reservations system to remove the coaches for reservation purposes which will allow them to start retailing tickets for journeys post-TT change with minimal work.
 

hexagon789

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It's far more likely that they've simply amended the reservations system to remove the coaches for reservation purposes which will allow them to start retailing tickets for journeys post-TT change with minimal work.
Well, upthread someone said Sunday was meant to be the first working of a 7-coach in service, I just went and looked up the seat plan.
 

43094

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My understanding is that '43302' is correct, regarding both the planned 2+7 operation this Sunday, and wider IC225 operations in December as they currently stand.
 
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Wilts Wanderer

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That’s essentially recreated the formations commonly seen at the July 1991 timetable change, where insufficient Mk4s had been delivered to form up the 91+8+DVT sets so most ran short-formed for some time. (The summer timetable had already been delayed - nationally! - until such point that the ECML could at least form up sufficient short sets.)
 

yorkie

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Diagrams confirmed w/c 14th December
Thanks for posting this :) is there a possibility for a text version to be provided, if you have access to it? Otherwise, our blind members/readers won't know what's been posted. Edit: thanks :)
 
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sjpowermac

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Thanks for posting this :) is there a possibility for a text version to be provided, if you have access to it? Otherwise, our blind members/readers won't know what's been posted.
The diagrams are still subject to change, particularly the one involving Newcastle. There’s a problem with where to put the train during the layover at Newcastle.
 

D6130

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The diagrams are still subject to change, particularly the one involving Newcastle. There’s a problem with where to put the train during the layover at Newcastle.
It's a shame that the Forth Banks branch wasn't electrified. Could they run empty to and from Heating Depot....or would the track access charges be prohibitive?
 

tynesider

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Presumably a shunt to Heaton Depot and back is unfeasible due to Newcastle crew depot not signing the traction, plus the layover time in Newcastle being intended for the drivers PNB?
 

Class91Joe

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The diagrams are still subject to change, particularly the one involving Newcastle. There’s a problem with where to put the train during the layover at Newcastle.
Thought it was just spinning round the bridges? Shouldn't be too much of an issue?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thanks for posting this :) is there a possibility for a text version to be provided, if you have access to it? Otherwise, our blind members/readers won't know what's been posted.
Original post edited!
 
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sjpowermac

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Presumably a shunt to Heaton Depot and back is unfeasible due to Newcastle crew depot not signing the traction, plus the layover time in Newcastle being intended for the drivers PNB?
Crewed by Leeds or King’s Cross drivers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thought it was just spinning round the bridges? Shouldn't be too much of an issue?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Original post edited!
I don’t think there have been any electric trains round there for quite some time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It's a shame that the Forth Banks branch wasn't electrified. Could they run empty to and from Heating Depot....or would the track access charges be prohibitive?
I think that wouldn’t be possible due to time constraints and route knowledge, the intention is to use Leeds or King’s Cross drivers.
 

The Foghorn

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Performance. The new December timetable is based on Azuma performance, the current one is in part still based on HST+9 performance.

With 82 tonnes tare weight removed, the power to weight ratio is more like an Azuma, so they should accelerate more similarly and thus achieve similar Sectional Running Times under the newly accelerated timings.

(I understand they still have separate timings in the new timetable, but the differences are less noticeable than if you compared them currently removing the various allowances. )
The power to weight ratio may be similar, but the loco can't put down full power until it reaches around 90mph. It's also geared for 160mph and only four powered axles, so the tractive effort is considerably lower. Tractive effort is fairly consistent until maximum power is reached then it reduces. An Azuma is way quicker off the mark due to it's combination of AC motors, more powered axles and lower gearing.
 

hexagon789

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The power to weight ratio may be similar, but the loco can't put down full power until it reaches around 90mph. It's also geared for 160mph and only four powered axles, so the tractive effort is considerably lower. Tractive effort is fairly consistent until maximum power is reached then it reduces. An Azuma is way quicker off the mark due to it's combination of AC motors, more powered axles and lower gearing.
I fully agree and appreciate that; bit of simplification on my part there.

There are still different SRTs for the shorter 225 sets, but broadly masked by adjusting station times in the WTT.
 

Railperf

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I fully agree and appreciate that; bit of simplification on my part there.

There are still different SRTs for the shorter 225 sets, but broadly masked by adjusting station times in the WTT.
The only time I ever travelled on a class 91 hauled service that I considered quick was when it was a Mark 3 consist with an a HST power car at the back providing extra traction power. But even so, I don't recall that consist picking up speed from 0 to 60 mph in the same way a Class 801 does.
 

The Foghorn

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I THINK tfw has an option for all remaining MK4s to add to their fleet, I don't know if these will be released though
LNER haven't been good at retaining spare parts from scrapped stock if that's where they're bound. 91105 has spent a long time out of service because they didn't cannibalise any second man side windscreens, they only retained drivers side ones. DOH!
 

D1537

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LNER December timetable update (Here) includes this

The following weekday services will be introduced from Spring 2026:

  • 14:40 London King’s Cross to Harrogate
  • 18:33 Harrogate to London King’s Cross
So this is cancelled (for the time being) so that the Azuma can be used for the 1N09/1Y20 diagram. No 225 Newcastle service (yet).
 

Jamesrob637

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LNER December timetable update (Here) includes this

The following weekday services will be introduced from Spring 2026:

  • 14:40 London King’s Cross to Harrogate
  • 18:33 Harrogate to London King’s Cross
So this is cancelled (for the time being) so that the Azuma can be used for the 1N09/1Y20 diagram. No 225 Newcastle service (yet).

Did 91s ever go to Harrogate (in tow?)
 

yorkie

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LNER December timetable update (Here) includes this

The following weekday services will be introduced from Spring 2026:

  • 14:40 London King’s Cross to Harrogate
  • 18:33 Harrogate to London King’s Cross
So this is cancelled (for the time being) so that the Azuma can be used for the 1N09/1Y20 diagram. No 225 Newcastle service (yet).
Thanks for confirming this. It was already divulged by several trusted sources.

I am very disappointed as the 225 services would have been good for me; I do sometimes travel from York to London around 1930. I not only prefer the 225s but I find the mobile signal works better, so I can get more work done.

Anyone know what will happen (or what the aspirations are) from Spring? Or is it too early to say?
 
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