LM 319 cascade progress

[Aictos]

Could refitting 319s with Dellner (I think 350s use Dellner) couplings be a viable option instead of running what is seen as a microfleet? If they're going through a refresh/refit right now, could new couplers be included as part of the work?

The 321s didn't have new couplers so pardon me for asking why put new ones on the 319s?

It didn't stop London Midland run what was a micro fleet with their 321s so had to ask the wisdom of changing the couplers on the 319s especially as if a 350 is required to assist a failed 321 then surely a emergency coupling would suffice?

 

[childwallblues]

I agree, but just to be awkward: sitting in the motor coach of a 319 on a fast is anything but quiet!

Having travelled yesterday on the 0629 Broad Green to Manchester Victoria and 1702 return, both services being 319382 I can confirm that the MSO (63094) was noisy. However not as noisy as the various 142/150/156 that they have replaced. The return home in the TSO (71980) was noisier as the compressor kept on kicking in. Whilst the train was probably about 70% full out of MCV it was impressive speeding past the crawling cars on the M602 and stationery traffic on the M60/M62 at the Eccles Interchange.
One downside to their arrival is the loss of through trains to Stalybridge and Huddersfield as the wires stop at MCV, and the impending loss (albeit temporarily) of through trains to Blackpool North.
Another benefit (for Manchester commuters) is that the 319s on Merseyside has allowed many services to run as 4-car using the units freed up. Another is the opening of the Todmorden Curve. The 1654 Manchester Victoria to Blackburn via Burnley Manchester Road formed of 156455 + 142053 was full when it left.

 

[klewer]

The 321s didn't have new couplers so pardon me for asking why put new ones on the 319s?

It didn't stop London Midland run what was a micro fleet with their 321s so had to ask the wisdom of changing the couplers on the 319s especially as if a 350 is required to assist a failed 321 then surely a emergency coupling would suffice?

Pretty much the same situation we've had on the Great Eastern since the 360's were introduced some 12 years ago, alongside the 321's that make up the majority of the fleet out here.

 

[Aictos]

Having travelled yesterday on the 0629 Broad Green to Manchester Victoria and 1702 return, both services being 319382 I can confirm that the MSO (63094) was noisy. However not as noisy as the various 142/150/156 that they have replaced. The return home in the TSO (71980) was noisier as the compressor kept on kicking in. Whilst the train was probably about 70% full out of MCV it was impressive speeding past the crawling cars on the M602 and stationery traffic on the M60/M62 at the Eccles Interchange.
One downside to their arrival is the loss of through trains to Stalybridge and Huddersfield as the wires stop at MCV, and the impending loss (albeit temporarily) of through trains to Blackpool North.
Another benefit (for Manchester commuters) is that the 319s on Merseyside has allowed many services to run as 4-car using the units freed up. Another is the opening of the Todmorden Curve. The 1654 Manchester Victoria to Blackburn via Burnley Manchester Road formed of 156455 + 142053 was full when it left.

Indeed and it's thanks to the investment that's ongoing with the 319s and electrification being used in the north that has freed up 14Xs and 15Xs to be cascaded onto other services allowing them to permit services to be longer and thus more seats are available for the public.

The same applied to the Great Northern, they got ex London Midland 321s which enabled 12 car 365s to be introduced meaning more seats for the public and these 12 cars are very busy in the peaks.

Pretty much the same situation we've had on the Great Eastern since the 360's were introduced some 12 years ago, alongside the 321's that make up the majority of the fleet out here.

I guess you could say it's the same situation that Southern, First Scotrail (at the time, South Eastern, Northern etc have all had to deal with so it's not a new thing.

I think the only time the couplers got changed on a cascade that I am aware of is when the 375/3s got transferred to Southern from South Eastern and renumbered 377/3s and had their Tightlock couplers changed with Dellner couplers so they were compatible with the rest of the 377s that Southern use.

 

[childwallblues]

Could refitting 319s with Dellner (I think 350s use Dellner) couplings be a viable option instead of running what is seen as a microfleet? If they're going through a refresh/refit right now, could new couplers be included as part of the work?

What is the difference in running a microfleet 319 and 321 besides the different trains?

 

[swt_passenger]

What is the difference in running a microfleet 319 and 321 besides the different trains?

This puzzled me about the original question. It isn't coupler compatability that defines a 'micro fleet', but the relative number compared to a main fleet when you take into account training, maintenance, spares, etc etc.

All that far outweighs the ability to couple trains together unexpectedly now and again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All that far outweighs the ability to couple trains together unexpectedly now and again.

Particularly when having a properly maintained EMU so knackered that you can only tow it out of the way is comparatively rare, particularly where they are mostly running around in at least pairs anyway. I can't remember the last time that happened on the south WCML when I was trying to use it. "Train failures" are almost always things like door failures/interlock failures and the likes where the set can still move with the broken thing isolated but can't be used for passenger service, or sets not coming off the depot in the first place.

 

[87015]

Particularly when having a properly maintained EMU so knackered that you can only tow it out of the way is comparatively rare, particularly where they are mostly running around in at least pairs anyway. I can't remember the last time that happened on the south WCML when I was trying to use it. "Train failures" are almost always things like door failures/interlock failures and the likes where the set can still move with the broken thing isolated but can't be used for passenger service, or sets not coming off the depot in the first place.

Err, there was one yesterday and another today where 350s have sat down and required assistance. Its really not rare.

Obviously split fleets can be worked with but there will be a reliability cost. Especially when LM control are involved...

 

[childwallblues]

This puzzled me about the original question. It isn't coupler compatability that defines a 'micro fleet', but the relative number compared to a main fleet when you take into account training, maintenance, spares, etc etc.

All that far outweighs the ability to couple trains together unexpectedly now and again.

Replying to a previous post what I was trying to ask was if 7 x 319 is a microfleet surely they are replacing 7 x 321 which also must be classed as a microfleet?

 

[swt_passenger]

Replying to a previous post what I was trying to ask was if 7 x 319 is a microfleet surely they are replacing 7 x 321 which also must be classed as a microfleet?

I was agreeing with you...

 

[childwallblues]

I was agreeing with you...

Apologies.

 

[user15681]

319460 moved to Wolverton this morning, which seems to be the last of the initial four to LM for now (429 and 216 already with LM, 013 on hand at Wolverton).

 

[sd0733]

On the latest update we had regarding the 319s that only 3 of the 4 will be put through a c6 overhaul before the start date. The other will be sent away early next year for overhaul

 

[158722]

On the latest update we had regarding the 319s that only 3 of the 4 will be put through a c6 overhaul before the start date. The other will be sent away early next year for overhaul

Would this exception be 216? Seems to be being used for crew training in unrefreshed form.

 

[sd0733]

Would this exception be 216? Seems to be being used for crew training in unrefreshed form.

Doesn't say actual numbers but would assume so as I believe all the others are either at or been to Wolverton.

 

[87015]

Can't see a 321 thread so will throw in here - at least a couple of the LM 321s murmured to be going south rather than north with TfL funding them for LOROL.

 

[JaJaWa]

Can't see a 321 thread so will throw in here - at least a couple of the LM 321s murmured to be going south rather than north with TfL funding them for LOROL.

Due to issues with the "high quality" of the rolling stock from AGA, or for additional services?

 

[Class377/5]

Can't see a 321 thread so will throw in here - at least a couple of the LM 321s murmured to be going south rather than north with TfL funding them for LOROL.

Scotrail already leased them so doubt that. 319s would make sense.

 

[D365]

Scotrail already leased them so doubt that. 319s would make sense.

Would the interest from TfL in sourcing additional Mk3 EMUs be instead of, or as well as the interest from SouthEastern? The dual-voltage capability of the Class 319 is of course convenient for further use in South-East England (especially on London Overground I meant to say).

 

[Class377/5]

Would the interest from TfL in sourcing additional Mk3 EMUs be instead of, or as well as the interest from SouthEastern? The dual-voltage capability of the Class 319 is of course convenient for further use in South-East England.

To me, I haven't heard anything is just guesswork here, but dual voltage units would be of better benefit to LO. But logically using them on the DC line would make sense with part issues of the 5 car 378s and allow tph increases on the NLL/WLL ahead of the new Aventra arriving. Again this isn't based on any knowledge I actually have.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

From the LM website:-

"We're changing some of our trains on the West Coast
We've begun the process of replacing our Class 321 trains by leasing four Class 319 units, with two further in the pipeline.
They'll be used on the West Coast Mainline between Milton Keynes - Euston and Watford - St Albans.

Due to new legislation around disabled access, they'll have less seating capacity than Class 321 trains, and fewer first class seats.
The Class 319 trains will undergo a full branding overhaul in 2016. Until then, three units will carry minimal London Midland branding and one will feature Southern/Thameslink livery.

Inside these trains we will be recovering the seats with new moquette in the style of the same green pattern used on our other London Midland trains.


Last Updated:07/09/2015 18:45,07/09/2015 18:45"

 

[387star]

So 319013/216/429/460 confirmed as the initial four?

How many 319s LM getting eventually?

 

[DarloRich]

One has been parked in the carriage sidings at Beltchley for ages and I think another is on Northampton depot. I assume for crew familiarisation and static training. TBH i am not to concerned about the swap of 321 for 319 units ( although the reduced capacity may be an issue) i would be concerned by any wider fleet swap!

 

[387star]

I read they are getting up to 11 of these units but only the four initially can anyone confirm?

Originally it looked like they were getting two /2s which made sense as they could be used on the mainline with their better seating layout

 

[8J]

I'd be interested to know will LM remove the guard door controls from the cabs like Northern have.

 

[samj]

When are these entering service with LM?

 

[D365]

When are these entering service with LM?

September 21st - so Monday the week after next.

 

[samj]

Perfect timing for my few days off. Does anyone have diagram info? Sorry if I am a bit late into the conversation.

 

[158722]

I read they are getting up to 11 of these units but only the four initially can anyone confirm?

Originally it looked like they were getting two /2s which made sense as they could be used on the mainline with their better seating layout

If I recall correctly, they are getting an initial batch of 7 to replace the 7 321s with a further batch of 11, giving a total of 18 and possibly leading to some 350s leaving (as discussed at some length...)

 

[Old Hill Bank]

It's six. Please read post 231.