Liverpool Transpennine services

[ukrob]

jcollins, I appreciate your post, but to repeat the last point in my post you replied to:

The short answer is nobody knows

What you have heard against what someone else has heard is not important because nobody knows. To correct you on one point though, It would be Merseytravel who want extra services, not Merseyrail.

Although that is speculation that most people believe to be true not what will definitely happen. The only thing confirmed is that EMUs will run between Liverpool and Manchester via Chat Moss and the PR has stated that because they'll be electric services they'll improve journey times.

They will - through better acceleration, and line speed improvements (not limited to EMUs of course).

 

[northwichcat]

I say extend the Hulls to Liverpool South Parkway.

Send the Scarboroughs via Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street.

The two Man Airports from Newc & Mboro can operate via Guide Pridge until the new curve opens at Castlefield.

I'm unsure of your logic there. That would give 3 services from Piccadilly with a 30 minute gap in the hourly pattern and then two in half an hour.

I think your plan would work better if it was incorporated with the proposed 5tph between Manchester and Leeds via Huddersfield and maybe join the Hull service on to the Llandudno service with a connection to an express Liverpool service at Newton-le-Willows.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would be Merseytravel who want extra services, not Merseyrail.

Merseyrail means two things:
1. The rail arm of Merseytravel
2. The trading name of Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Ltd

Have you never seen Merseyrail signs at stations in Merseyside not served by the Merseyrail Electrics or noticed the Merseyside PTE livered 142s and 150s in the past said Merseyrail?

 

[ukrob]

Merseyrail means two things:
1. The rail arm of Merseytravel
2. The trading name of Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Ltd

Have you never seen Merseyrail signs at stations in Merseyside not served by the Merseyrail Electrics or noticed the Merseyside PTE livered 142s and 150s in the past said Merseyrail?

It is Merseytravel who want more fast services between Liverpool and Manchester, not Merseyrail. I really don't see the point in debating it. Thanks for trying to clarify it though - I have only lived in the Merseyravel area all my life

 

[Nym]

Northern Hub Proposal says all TPE Services will run to and through Victoria, and sudgests that Liverpool - Norwich is to be sent via Victoria, or be retained on the CLC routes as the 1tph express service, with the stoppers through from Oxford Road retained for the CLC, but with TPE using the Chat Moss route, as they'll be diverted into Victoria.

 

[northwichcat]

not Merseyrail. I really don't see the point in debating it.

It is actually Merseyrail. Most people do say Merseytravel though to avoid confusion with the Merseyrail franchise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern Hub Proposal says all TPE Services will run to and through Victoria, and sudgests that Liverpool - Norwich is to be sent via Victoria, or be retained on the CLC routes as the 1tph express service, with the stoppers through from Oxford Road retained for the CLC, but with TPE using the Chat Moss route, as they'll be diverted into Victoria.

If you take the Northern hub proposal literally it'll mean Liverpool-Man Airport will become an EMU service. Then it will be switched to the Warrington line and become a DMU service.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Routeing the current TPE Liverpool services via the Chat Moss is not sensible. Victoria station is a dump with minimal facilities for long distance passengers and poor connections into other services and routes. At the moment when the Cheshire Lines route is closed for engineering works and the Liverpool services go via Victoria it is a shambles. The normally busy Liverpool services leave Victoria heading north half full, whilst the already busy services still going via Piccadilly are even busier carrying all the folk who don't want to go to Victoria to get on there. Like it or not, the vast majority of the long distance passengers are at Piccadilly due to its location, connections and facilities.

As regards luggage on the 185s, several posts are correct. The luggage problem is not just limited to the Airport services. All routes are affected at different times. Indeed I think you'll find similar problems aflict lots of other TOCs. The basic issue with nearly all rolling stock is it is trying to do too much. The 185s carry short distance commuters, medium and long distance business travellers, airport travellers, and vast numbers of students and squaddies at different times. Sometimes you need no luggage space at all, others you could never have enough unless each bay of seats has its own personal large luggage rack. Even with 4 coaches the problem wouldn't go away. At the moment, especially on Sundays, you can stack loads of luggage in the bike area in the DMS car, fill the adjacent luggage rack, fill the overhead racks and the space between seat backs and STILL have luggage stacked in the doorway!

 

[Statto]

I say extend the Hulls to Liverpool South Parkway.

Send the Scarboroughs via Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street.

The two Man Airports from Newc & Mboro can operate via Guide Pridge until the new curve opens at Castlefield.

I don't get that logic, Manchester trains can only use platforms 1&2 at [stn]LPY[/stn] due to the points south of the station which Manchester trains take which can only be accessed by trains using P1&2. LSP also has quite a few trains ph excluding Merseyrail platforms[7 tph in all including the VT which doesn't stop there but uses the line through there]which doesn't give the train enough time to turn round, without conflicting with other train movements.

 

[gnolife]

I think your plan would work better if it was incorporated with the proposed 5tph between Manchester and Leeds via Huddersfield and maybe join the Hull service on to the Llandudno service with a connection to an express Liverpool service at Newton-le-Willows.

How on earth would a Hull-Llandudno train benefit anyone involved. As I understand it, the Hull - Manchester service can get very busy, so tacking another section onto it would be totally unviable, and the Manchester - Chester - Llandudno can get busy enough as well, all these changes would do would give nightmarish load/unload times on 13/14 for people who previously used the two sepearate services, and create another service having to cut straight across the throat of piccadilly
Also, I dont think one ofTPX and ATW would appreciate losing one of their busy services

 

[Whistler40145]

I know how congested Platforms 13/14 are at Manchester Piccadilly & the station throat.

I would transfer the Llandudno service to Manchester Victoria, unless passengers are travelling from Birmingham, London or the Airport.

If any FTPE services from Liverpool are underused, why not start some from Manchester Victoria & Piccadilly.

 

[Nym]

Is no-one getting the whole idea of the castlefeild curve being to release capacity at the south of piccadilly by removing crossing movments from the East Manchester Lines to the OR Lines or Slow Lines?

Theres no point in building this and then continuing to route TPE through Piccadilly, it's a waste of £100m that could be spent elsewhere.

After the Castlefeild Curve is built, ALL TPE services will run via Victoria, more than likely to this kind of service pattern

Newcastle - Victoria - Oxford Road - Piccadilly - Airport
Middlesbrough - Victoria - Oxford Road - Piccadilly - Airport
Scarbrough - Victoria - Chat Moss - Liverpool L St
Hull - Victoria - Possible Extentions to Liverpool L St or Chester

The EMT Nottingham/Norwich - Liverpool L St will remain routed via Piccadilly and the CLC to retail Warrington Central's fast service, with the possible addition of the Nottingham CC asperation of a fast Manchester / Liverpool Nottingham service avoiding Sheffileld.

The CLC stoppers will remain half hourly, as is now, with possibly OR or Piccadilly terminators of fast services on the CLC to fill the gaps.

NR Have discression to extend electrification to Stalybridge, if this where to include Guide Bridge to Stalybridge there is a logical creation of a Piccadilly - Stalybridge service, pathing would allow 3tph running slow behind the current Glossop services that would run non-stop to Guide Bridge then onwards to Stalybridge, where potentially more services would be stopping from TPE.

There are mentionings from both NR and TPE to route the Nottingham - Liverpool services via Victoria using either an improved Philips Park Jcns or via Guide Bridge Jcns to meet up with the TPE route at Victoria.

This would save enough paths at Piccadilly to have plenty of nice shiney new additional peak services running, including ones from the Mid Cheshire Line, Buxton, Stoke on Trent and to and from London Euston.

 

[Whistler40145]

Nym, I certainly agree with you.

In the future, if electrified, could we see the current Glossop/Hadfield-Piccadilly service routed via Victoria & extended to Manchester Airport?

 

[Nym]

Nym, I certainly agree with you.

In the future, if electrified, could we see the current Glossop/Hadfield-Piccadilly service routed via Victoria & extended to Manchester Airport?

It would be a very long way round for them services, from glossop to get into Victoria would be 4 to 5 mins longer than Piccadilly (on a clear run) and then another 10 mins to loop round onto piccadilly. There also just isn't going to be the paths available on the airport line. Current headways allow for 2tph all stations and 8tph, and freight...

And when this is proberbly going to end up being:

Scotland, Lakes, Liverpool, Blackpool, Southport, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Cleethropes. There could be space for one or two more, but that would be all.

As glossop is a stud branch with near metro frequency I personally wouldn't want to spoil it by having onward services to mess up the pathings, if there where an LDPE or MDPE service allong the route then I'd say it would be worth running this onwards to the airport, but this would be by involvment of re-opening woodhead pass, and then the time penalties involed and the cost of re-opening woodhead in the first place could result in the Ardwick Flyover being built, and I'd hope any HS2 works would allow space for this in future.

 

[185]

I think another thing being missed is the demand for Warrington - Staly - Huddersfield/Leeds, which I think is specified in the (compulsory) PSR for the route - this would be satisfied by the use of Bank Quay on a Chester Extension.

I do think Liverpool South Parkway needs considering with Transpennine though, maybe extend the Chat Moss service there 'beyond' Lime Street?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(and a third rail extension from Hunts X to Old Trafford)

 

[Nym]

185: I have heard mentionings banded around of extending the Hull Paragon service to Chester General via Warrington Bank Quay, if this flow is compulary for the route, that would quite nicely satisfy it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I know how congested Platforms 13/14 are at Manchester Piccadilly & the station throat.

I would transfer the Llandudno service to Manchester Victoria, unless passengers are travelling from Birmingham, London or the Airport.

If any FTPE services from Liverpool are underused, why not start some from Manchester Victoria & Piccadilly.

I thought that ATW were currently considering extending some of the Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly services to Manchester Airport. If so, your route through Manchester Victoria leaves me thinking you would propose reversal there via th Ordsall Chord for those services.

A better way for ATW to go with Manchester Airport services in mind from the North Wales coast route, bearing in mind that airline passengers want the quickest route, is to run via Chester, Crewe, Wilmslow then through the much-underused south-facing junction into Manchester Airport, as this will NOT increase the number of paths through the through platforms at Manchester Piccadilly. (Their normal services would still cover the Llandudno to Manchester route as normal).

ATW already use Crewe to Wilmslow on their Manchester to South Wales services, so why not also run a Shrewsbury to Manchester Airport service on my proposed route, as Shrewsbury is a hub serving a wide area, with many connections. There are many businessmen in that area who view Manchester Airport and the airline routes available from there as being far superior to destinations available from other airports in the West Midlands region. I speak as a retired senior manager whose contacts with other managerial staff at business forums brought such thinking by fellow Midlands-based senior managers to my attention.

Before the criticisms start flooding in, this view of mine ONLY applies to any projected North Wales to Manchester Airport service that MAY be considered by ATW. They may well consider it and then reject it out of hand, noting that they would prefer ALL of their services to stop at a Manchester city centre station. I cannot fault the commercial logic in that thinking. All I was trying to visualise was a FAST route from North Wales to Manchester Airport.

 

[Nym]

I thought that ATW were currently considering extending some of the Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly services to Manchester Airport. If so, your route through Manchester Victoria leaves me thinking you would propose reversal there via th Ordsall Chord for those services.

A better way for ATW to go with Manchester Airport services in mind from the North Wales coast route, bearing in mind that airline passengers want the quickest route, is to run via Chester, Crewe, Wilmslow then through the much-underused south-facing junction into Manchester Airport, as this will NOT increase the number of paths through the through platforms at Manchester Piccadilly. (Their normal services would still cover the Llandudno to Manchester route as normal).

ATW already use Crewe to Wilmslow on their Manchester to South Wales services, so why not also run a Shrewsbury to Manchester Airport service on my proposed route, as Shrewsbury is a hub serving a wide area, with many connections. There are many businessmen in that area who view Manchester Airport and the airline routes available from there as being far superior to destinations available from other airports in the West Midlands region. I speak as a retired senior manager whose contacts with other managerial staff at business forums brought such thinking by fellow Midlands-based senior managers to my attention.

Before the criticisms start flooding in, this view of mine ONLY applies to any projected North Wales to Manchester Airport service that MAY be considered by ATW. They may well consider it and then reject it out of hand, noting that they would prefer ALL of their services to stop at a Manchester city centre station. I cannot fault the commercial logic in that thinking. All I was trying to visualise was a FAST route from North Wales to Manchester Airport.

There is a fast N Wales - MIA route, Change at Crewe...

When and if the EMT service through the potteries gets extended to MIA it will be welcome as it will then provide two through services from Crewe to MIA per hour, currently only one.

When I was regularly doing Manchester Airport - Chester I'd be travelling via Crewe because it's just quicker, and handily the Crewe service left MIA 14mins after my shift finished in good time to catch it, the Llandudno service connection off MIA is currently at 29mins past the hour (TPE to BPN).

If the Derby - Crewe where extended to MIA it would mean a re-cast of the timetable if it where to be any use, as the EMT service would be running almost in the path of the current MIA - CRE stopper. Switching this over to the other MIA stopper could work, but I don't think there are enough platforms at MIA to be able to fit this in without causing problems.

For connections to shrewsbury I'd sudgest running more services from Manc Airport to Wilmslow and advertising the connection better.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought that ATW were currently considering extending some of the Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly services to Manchester Airport. If so, your route through Manchester Victoria leaves me thinking you would propose reversal there via th Ordsall Chord for those services.

ATW do want more Airport services and with the Welsh Assembly interference I can't see TPE running a Welsh route in lieu of ATW.

I won't mention a westerly link in to the Airport again, which is the best solution here, as I've posted it enough times in different threads.

 

[Nym]

jcollins, precisely why I'm not mentioning Chester - Northwich - Airport - Manchester as a service, because it's been done to death already.

If the WAG want more services to MIA then they can tell ATW to run them, I suspect there wouldn't be too many issues in diverting the Manchester - Cardiff services to serve MIA instead of stockport, but it would be slower and loose a lot of revenue from the Wilmslow - Stockport - Manchester flow...

Next best they could hope for from S Wales would be extending the Shrewsbry - Crewe service to Manchester Airport, but that would mean crossing all of the lines at Crewe, and eating paths in the process.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

ATW do want more Airport services and with the Welsh Assembly interference I can't see TPE running a Welsh route in lieu of ATW.

I won't mention a westerly link in to the Airport again, which is the best solution here, as I've posted it enough times in different threads.

What were the routes from Manchester Airport from the Midlands area via the under-used south-facing junction that were discontinued...and wy and when?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ATW do want more Airport services and with the Welsh Assembly interference I can't see TPE running a Welsh route in lieu of ATW.

I won't mention a westerly link in to the Airport again, which is the best solution here, as I've posted it enough times in different threads.

What were the routes from Manchester Airport from the Midlands area via the under-used south-facing junction that were discontinued...and why and when?

 

[Nym]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2663117.stm

Skegness via Crewe and Derby

 

[northwichcat]

What were the routes from Manchester Airport from the Midlands area via the under-used south-facing junction that were discontinued...and wy and when?

CT ran a Manchester Airport-Skegness via Derby service. The route didn't serve Manchester Piccadilly and people wanting Manchester changed at Crewe meaning that passenger numbers were low on the Crewe-Airport section so that part was axed when the service was chopped up in to shorter services.

Also NWT ran an open access London service serving Manchester Airport.

There aren't many paths on the Crewe-Sandbach section now so options for services between Manchester and the Midlands/South are limited.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

CT ran a Manchester Airport-Skegness via Derby service. The route didn't serve Manchester Piccadilly and people wanting Manchester changed at Crewe meaning that passenger numbers were low on the Crewe-Airport section so that part was axed when the service was chopped up in to shorter services.

Also NWT ran an open access London service serving Manchester Airport.

There aren't many paths on the Crewe-Sandbach section now so options for services between Manchester and the Midlands/South are limited.

What paths are actually available between Crewe and Sandbach could be looked at in depth to see if the best possible economic use is being made of them.

 

[northwichcat]

What paths are actually available between Crewe and Sandbach could be looked at in depth to see if the best possible economic use is being made of them.

I should have really said a lack of paths available north of Crewe, rather than specifically Sandbach. It would certainly be easier to add in a Northwich-Crewe or Airport-Derby service than an additional stopper between Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly via Stockport and the only way you'd do an extra service via the Airport would be to extend an existing service to Crewe.

 

[Waverley125]

I think once TPE is rerouted via Victoria that will solve a lot of problems, but I don't approve of routeing away from Warrington.

I think there did ought to be an hourly service from Newcastle to Liverpool, probably with a calling pattern something like:

Newcastle, Darlington, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Warrington Central, Liverpool Lime St

if run with a Voyager/6 car 185/HST it could be TPE's flagship, and would serve all 4 of the North's most important centres, I'd guess end to end journey time about 3 hr15, if you assume Newcastle-Leeds 1hr 20, York-Leeds 20min, Leeds-Manchester 50min & Manchester-Liverpool 45min

 

[Nym]

And what route would you use to get from Manchester Victoria to Warrington Central?

You planning on relaying the trackbed from Glasebrook to Lowton with a new curve added at Culeth?

The way to serve Warrington - Manchester - Leeds would be to extend a service through to Chester via Warrington BQ

 

[northwichcat]

but I don't approve of routeing away from Warrington.

That is likely to be contested in the Warrington area. There's no proposals set in stone and it's not uncommon for the parties involved to not look at everything before coming up with ideas. Take for instance the removal of the Crewe stop from Glasgow-London services which was seen as OK to do because Crewe would have new services to London, despite the fact that people travel north from Crewe to Warrington, Lancashire and Scotland as well as to London.

 

[Gareth]

I also feel it's a bad idea. Not only for Warrington, which is a sizable town & economy, but also for connectivity with Liverpool Airport. A lot of people over the Pennines use Liverpool Airport. The airport is a lot bigger than it used to be and is likely to have an important future, so it's connectivity should be increased, not compromised.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I also feel it's a bad idea. Not only for Warrington, which is a sizable town & economy, but also for connectivity with Liverpool Airport. A lot of people over the Pennines use Liverpool Airport. The airport is a lot bigger than it used to be and is likely to have an important future, so it's connectivity should be increased, not compromised.

How about re-opening Burtonwood as an airport...with lots of "over-friendly" Yanks to give the correct ambience?

Joviality aside, look to the main airline services offered by Manchester and by Liverpool airports. They offer a totally differing package of destinations. I know that this is a rail forum, but logical reasoning says that if people have their own cars and there is an airport nearby, they will use their cars. THIS IS A FACT OF LIFE...look at the private car parking spaces offered by both airports, especially by Manchester. These car drivers know that Warrington is very lucky to be so near to both of these two airports

 

[Gareth]

What about people from further afield? It's not at all uncommon for someone from Yorkshire to want to get to Liverpool Airport by train. Indeed, I've seen Yorkshire folk asking questions about connections to Liverpool South Parkway on the internet in the past and how to get from South Parkway to the airport itself. The airport may not be as big as Manchester, but it's still an important airport for much of the north and midlands and, I think, is still growing (or at leasting shrinking less than most others in these difficult economic times). Greater Manchester is a huge market for the airport too. Indeed, Liverpool Airport is closer to Manchester (and Manchester Airport to Liverpool) than some other cities' own airports. Neglecting the route via Warrington Central would be an awful diservice, especially considering the big investment that was put into building Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What about people from further afield? It's not at all uncommon for someone from Yorkshire to want to get to Liverpool Airport by train. Indeed, I've seen Yorkshire folk asking questions about connections to Liverpool South Parkway on the internet in the past and how to get from South Parkway to the airport itself. The airport may not be as big as Manchester, but it's still an important airport for much of the north and midlands and, I think, is still growing (or at leasting shrinking less than most others in these difficult economic times). Greater Manchester is a huge market for the airport too. Indeed, Liverpool Airport is closer to Manchester (and Manchester Airport to Liverpool) than some other cities' own airports. Neglecting the route via Warrington Central would be an awful diservice, especially considering the big investment that was put into building Liverpool South Parkway.

Sorry, Gareth, I was not really questioning your thinking but I know for a fact that people in Warrington use their cars to drive to either Manchester or Liverpool airports when going on holiday and that there are also dedicated coach services to both airports in this region.

There have been numerous comments on various threads as to how the approved Ordsall Chord and the Manchester to Liverpool electrification will affect the rail services of the Warrington area. I will honestly say that I am glad that I do not have the worry that Warrington people have about the way that Warrington rail services will eventually be resolved.

Sorry about my comments about Burtonwood and the Yanks in my previous entry....this is what happens when you get to be an old-timer like me.