Liverpool may get slow HS2 London service

[northwichcat]

The Liverpool Daily Post has claimed that plans to take a high speed rail line to the edge of Liverpool ‘have been quiet dumped, apparently to save money’.

High Speed Two was ‘expected to run at its top speed’ to Manchester and then slow down to run through Liverpool Lime Street. The news agency claims that trains ‘will now switch to standard speed around 50 miles further south, at a point just north of Birmingham’. This means that journeys from Liverpool to London will be a ‘full 38 minutes slower than Manchester to London’.

Maria Eagle, the Garston and Halewood MP and Labour’s transport spokeswoman, said:
“I will be writing to ministers, to demand an explanation for this sneaky move.
“They clearly see getting to Manchester as more important than getting to Liverpool, yet are failing to be upfront and honest about a slower journey time than in the original plans.”
http://www.rail.co/2012/02/03/plans-to-take-high-speed-rail-to-liverpool-quiety-dropped/

 

[gnolife]

Hang on? if the trains were supposed to be running Fast to Manchester, then slow to Liverpool, the Manchester -> Liverpool section would still take a good 45 mins to do. I don't see what they're complaining about.

 

[northwichcat]

Hang on? if the trains were supposed to be running Fast to Manchester, then slow to Liverpool, the Manchester -> Liverpool section would still take a good 45 mins to do. I don't see what they're complaining about.

Yeah I'm a bit confused by that, I think it's been wrongly reported. IIRC the Liverpool and Manchester HS2 services were supposed to take separate lines north of Crewe but they'll now be taking the same line meaning Liverpool-London would be via Manchester and would be no faster than the current Pendolino service.

 

[Nym]

Looks like utter bull crap to me...

Stage I it will run via Rugley and Crewe for Liverpool & Preston and via Stoke or Crewe for Manchester, as it is now.

When Stage II is complete, services will most likely run via 'Manchester South Parkway for Manchester Airport' but this will be the faster of the two routes, and will likely continue into Liverpool via the Chat Moss...

 

[HSTEd]

Right now all ive got idea wise is a triangle junction just south of Manchester airport with a short High speed spur to immediately north of Warrington Central station with trains continuing to Liverpool.

Annoying that means the trains would have to be CC.

Unless we can somehow obtain an alternative route through Warrington without a huge tunnel (although I am ratehr fond of those).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How amazing that the Liverpool Daily Post have so much detailed knowledge of a project that is at least 20 years in the future, when many different things can happen. Typical "scaremongering" by local media to elicit a reaction from its readership.

 

[Ivo]

How amazing that the Liverpool Daily Post have so much detailed knowledge of a project that is at least 20 years in the future, when many different things can happen. Typical "scaremongering" by local media to elicit a reaction from its readership.

I think this might explain that:

Maria Eagle, the Garston and Halewood MP and Labour’s transport spokeswoman, said:
“I will be writing to ministers, to demand an explanation for this sneaky move.
“They clearly see getting to Manchester as more important than getting to Liverpool, yet are failing to be upfront and honest about a slower journey time than in the original plans.”

One idiot trying to sell a story to make herself look as though she is actively helping her constituents and her country.

Cue a slurry of pro-Labour rubbish...

 

[CosherB]

Why would Liverpool need an HS rail line? Manchester and Leeds yes, because they are vital business hubs... but Liverpool???

 

[swt_passenger]

This seems to me to be the author getting confused between the initial link 'near Lichfield' and the future link near Manchester.

Bit of an irrelevance really...

 

[WatcherZero]

The story refers to the fact in the first HS2 plans Liverpool trains would use Lichfield like Manchester trains in phase 1 then have a connection somewhere in the Warrington area in phase 2 so they would run slowly out of Liverpool then speed down HS2. In the revised phase 1 plans published Dec/Jan however that connection appears to have been dropped with the WCML/HS2 connection now being somewhere between Wigan and Preston and Liverpool trains continuing to join HS2 at Lichfield in phase 2. This means Liverpool trains are 11 minutes slower in the most recent plans compared to the original plans.

 

[swt_passenger]

The story refers to the fact in the first HS2 plans Liverpool trains would use Lichfield like Manchester trains in phase 1 then have a connection somewhere in the Warrington area in phase 2 so they would run slowly out of Liverpool then speed down HS2. In the revised phase 1 plans published Dec/Jan however that connection appears to have been dropped with the WCML/HS2 connection now being somewhere between Wigan and Preston and Liverpool trains continuing to join HS2 at Lichfield in phase 2. This means Liverpool trains are 11 minutes slower in the most recent plans compared to the original plans.

The drawing in this pamphlet shows Liverpool trains running from a point between Manchester and Liverpool though:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-governments-decisions/hs2-governments-decisions.pdf

I know it is only a sketch, but it doesn't exactly suggest Liverpool trains running all the way from Lichfield on the existing route.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No detailed route has been published, but my hunch is for an HS2 route roughly over the Skelton Jn-Glazebrook-Culcheth-Wigan route of the former CLC/GC, reaching the WCML south of Springs Branch.
This would mean Liverpool services would run on normal track via either the CLC route from Glazebrook, or via the Chat Moss route from near the old Kenyon Jn (or both).
Either way there is no expectation for an HS2-gauge route into Liverpool, so services would use classic-compatible stock, like Preston/Glasgow services.

An alternative might join the WCML via a spur from the HS2 Manchester route further south in Cheshire (so as to serve Warrington and avoid building the route via Glazebrook), but would incur the wrath of the Cheshire nimbys, who are at least as determined as those in the Chilterns.

Just my 5p. We don't really know yet.

 

[Stats]

The drawing in this pamphlet shows Liverpool trains running from a point between Manchester and Liverpool though:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-governments-decisions/hs2-governments-decisions.pdf

I know it is only a sketch, but it doesn't exactly suggest Liverpool trains running all the way from Lichfield on the existing route.

You need to look at the service specification diagrams in the Economic case documents. These indicative service specifications have been drawn up in line with the latest development of Phase 2 routes. They show Liverpool services running on convential lines from south of Stafford.

It may be that when the route for Phase 2 options are released there are various options that will enable Liverpool services to run further on HS2 up to the Manchester area and options for them to leave HS2 at Lichfield.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No detailed route has been published, but my hunch is for an HS2 route roughly over the Skelton Jn-Glazebrook-Culcheth-Wigan route of the former CLC/GC, reaching the WCML south of Springs Branch.

Would this route require a new bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal from Partington to Cadishead or would the existing high bridge supports be utilised?

 

[Nym]

I'm hoping the old embankmants will be used if nothing else, every single fantasy route I've come up with uses them...

Although most of my plans have two stations outside of Manchester at Manchester S Parkway and Manchester W Parkway (North of Birchwood, fed from M62 and A580).

TBH, I'd also like to see a D2M or D3M width platform built as part of the HS2 crossing as well, so it can provide an additional vehicle crossing over the ship canal, (initally it wouldn't really go anywhere, but it would provide the foundations for an additional orbital route, and possibly an extension of the A556(M) linked into an M62ORR, would have it initally linked onto the M62 with a simple free flow trumpet or three level stack and an improved A6144 up to D2/D2M standards, try and take traffic OFF the Barton Crossing)

 

[John55]

As always it is better to go to the source of the story and the quote from the Liverpool Daily Post story which is important is;

"A Dft spokesman said: “It’s correct that one option was for the connection to Liverpool from the high-speed line to be further north, closer to Manchester.

“However, it is now intended for that connection to be at Lichfield, north of Birmingham, which means the trains will run at conventional speed for longer to Liverpool than was the case before.”

The spokesman agreed the change was likely to save money, but added: “This is good news for passengers from Runcorn, Crewe and Stafford, which will now have trains switching to the high-speed line.”

So it is not a claim by the LDP but a statement by the DfT.

Ms Eagle's comments appear to be entirely justified, and I never thought I would say that of a Labour MP!



Read More http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...to-save-money-99623-30246726/2/#ixzz1lRNp2DGT

 

[Holly]

No detailed route has been published, but my hunch is for an HS2 route roughly over ...
An alternative might join the WCML via a spur from the HS2 Manchester route further south in Cheshire (so as to serve Warrington and avoid building the route via Glazebrook), but would incur the wrath of the Cheshire nimbys, who are at least as determined as those in the Chilterns. ...

Having HS2 rejoin the WCML at Weaver Junction is the option most likely to please the Liverpool people. Since it is mostly green fields it would be fairly easy for government to overcome the nimbys.

Another possibility (barely) is to reinstate the Latchford viaduct and approach Liverpool via Fiddler's Ferry.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As always it is better to go to the source of the story and the quote from the Liverpool Daily Post story which is important is;

"A Dft spokesman said: “It’s correct that one option was for the connection to Liverpool from the high-speed line to be further north, closer to Manchester.
“However, it is now intended for that connection to be at Lichfield, north of Birmingham, which means the trains will run at conventional speed for longer to Liverpool than was the case before.”
The spokesman agreed the change was likely to save money, but added: “This is good news for passengers from Runcorn, Crewe and Stafford, which will now have trains switching to the high-speed line.”

So it is not a claim by the LDP but a statement by the DfT.
Ms Eagle's comments appear to be entirely justified, and I never thought I would say that of a Labour MP!
Read More http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...to-save-money-99623-30246726/2/#ixzz1lRNp2DGT

I'm not doubting the DfT quote (although it's the first time I've seen it), but it doesn't make a lot of sense.
It must mean that the Manchester route will go further east and more directly (A34-ish).
However it also means it will not connect back onto the WCML sensibly further north, which is not what the strategy says.
How are Glasgow trains supposed to benefit without a WCML connection?
And if there is a connection then Liverpool can benefit from it as well.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not doubting the DfT quote (although it's the first time I've seen it), but it doesn't make a lot of sense.
It must mean that the Manchester route will go further east and more directly (A34-ish).
However it also means it will not connect back onto the WCML sensibly further north, which is not what the strategy says.
How are Glasgow trains supposed to benefit without a WCML connection?
And if there is a connection then Liverpool can benefit from it as well.

Glasgow trains wouldn't really benefit from HS2 significantly anyway, as they would loose pretty much all the gained time north of Manchester due to lacking tilt equipment anyway.

 

[Nym]

Said it before, say it again, put the connection, at the end of Phase II, onto the Chat Moss & just south of Wigan if need be.

 

[swt_passenger]

You need to look at the service specification diagrams in the Economic case documents. These indicative service specifications have been drawn up in line with the latest development of Phase 2 routes. They show Liverpool services running on convential lines from south of Stafford.

Thanks for that, I hadn't read the economic case you mention - and it isn't unusual to be able to find completely different info the further you dig into DfT's masses of info, as the more recent post quoting the Liverpool paper has now revealed anyway...

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Why would Liverpool need an HS rail line? Manchester and Leeds yes, because they are vital business hubs... but Liverpool???

http://www.wirralwaters.co.uk/content/home.php
http://www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk/content/home.php

Perhaps these rather large schemes may help merit a line. Plus the fact Liverpool is trying to get cruise liner destination status?

 

[CosherB]

http://www.wirralwaters.co.uk/content/home.php
http://www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk/content/home.php

Perhaps these rather large schemes may help merit a line. Plus the fact Liverpool is trying to get cruise liner destination status?

Hmmm. Isn't the city threatened with losing its Heritage status if those montrous edifices are built on the waterfront?

And what's the attraction of Scouseport for cruise liner passengers? They'll only get their wallets, cameras, and iPhones nicked!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A direct line from Lichfield to Manchester goes through Cheadle (Staffs), Leek and just west of Macclesfield and is 53 miles from where HS2 is planned to join the WCML.
Until now I expected HS2 would go close to Stoke and take a rather longer route but now I'm not sure, after the DfT comments above about Liverpool.
There's the old Churnet Valley Railway tunnel under Leek they could use...
Overall there would need to be quite a lot of short tunnels on such a route through the Staffordshire hills.

 

[Nym]

The thing is, if you skew the line a bit, you can get from Rugley to Liverpool via Manchester (If you plan to use the crossing over the ship canal at Carrington / Irlam) and it would be a shorter route than running via Crewe.

There is also a CHANCE of the Chat Moss lines getting gauged out to be UIC GC gauge, I don't think they could get speed increases up to much beyond 110/125, but if you can make it big enough for UIC GC stock, and run via Manchester West Parkway into Liverpool at about 100 calling at St Helens Central you'd have jouney times aroundabout the 1hr20 mark for fastest journies and 1hr25-1hr30 for in service journies, with the service joining with another at Manchester West Parkway, or running as a 400m service to London, the problem I can see with that plan is the tunnels between Edge Hill and Lime Street, less so for the main parts of the Chat Moss, since Stephenson had them as mainly four track before, there should be space to put something like that back again.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

the problem I can see with that plan is the tunnels between Edge Hill and Lime Street, less so for the main parts of the Chat Moss, since Stephenson had them as mainly four track before, there should be space to put something like that back again.

I think only Lime St to Huyton Jn was ever 4-track, plus a stretch west of Patricroft towards Chat Moss.
Sankey/Newton viaducts were only ever 2-track, and there has been some intrusive building around Wavertree Tech Park (plus all the local stations).
But there's no obvious answer to the Lime St cutting/tunnels.
Tuebrook Parkway, anyone?

 

[Nym]

Or just extend some platforms at Lime Street to 400m, or when Phase II kicks in, let them be happy with 2 or 3tph via Manchester W Parkway and 1tph via Runcorn, Crewe and Rugley Link (Splitting from the Holyhead diagram)...

If you can't tell, most of my Phase II and Phase I for that matter diagramming relys on splitting CC diagrams on route...

Eg. Splitting stuff at Manchester West Parkway for Liverpool and Preston (Onwards to Glasgow or Blackpool from Preston) at 2 or 3 tph. Or running off HS2 at Rugley, calling at Stafford & Crewe then Splitting with half to Liverpool (Or Preston calling CRE, BQ, NW & PRE) and the other half to Holyhead with a loco on t'back or front end. (So I'd see an off Euston pattern of 6 or 7tph NW of Brum 3tph Manc etc etc. )

Just looked on google earth, only way to get 400m platforms in Lime Street is to either extend them all the way to St Andrew Street, or all the way into St George's Hall, I think Liverpool will need to be happy with 2tph or 3tph via Manchester West Parkway splitting from a Preston bound service

WRT Below (Don't want another post for this...): "In the world where people in Newcastle have sod all idea what I know of or what I do for a living..."

 

[markydh]

And back in the real world where HS2 doesn't rely on grandiose plans by a non-entity rail enthusiast...

 

[martinsh]

High Speed Two was ‘expected to run at its top speed’ to Manchester and then slow down to run through Liverpool Lime Street.

HS2 running through Lime Street - that will be quite exciting !

 

[Nym]

Could run quite happily through Low Level

Although on a slightly more serious note, it would fit a 4 platform station with 430m platforms nicely on the old Central Station, was still a car park last time I was there.