Liverpool Lime St. - Norwich

[Techniquest]

Bugger off.
Do you live in Alfreton? No. How often do you use the service through Alfreton? Probably hardly ever.
Due to the sheer amount of passengers for Alfreton, we need a half hourly service. Cut Langley Mill out fine, but Alfreton still needs it. And that's what's happening, EMT are dropping Dronfield and Langley Mill.
Don't like it? Oh well, hard luck.

Funny that, every time I've gone through there I've thought "Ugh, what a horrible place to live in". Definately cannot see the need for it to have trains every 30 minutes, especially since there's places all over the country that need such a service but don't even have a railway line.

Still, that's my view.

 

[Pumbaa]

Funny that, every time I've gone through there I've thought "Ugh, what a horrible place to live in". Definately cannot see the need for it to have trains every 30 minutes, especially since there's places all over the country that need such a service but don't even have a railway line.

Still, that's my view.

I'm siding with you here. No matter how much of a case Aureal makes for it, the behaviour is standard of any passenger faced with the prospect of drop in service. Efficiency should be paramount, both allocatively and productively.

 

[Max]

"Ugh, what a horrible place to live in"

Bit harsh maybe? Careful, or the whole of Alfreton will be after you!

 

[Aureol]

Funny that, every time I've gone through there I've thought "Ugh, what a horrible place to live in".

And my guess is that you've only ever seen the station?
Yes, the station is rubbish, but the town itself has hundreds of years of history, plus Alfreton Hall and King Alfred's Banquetting Hall. Study the facts before you accuse a lovely town of being "horrible". :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfreton
http://www.derbyshireuk.net/alfreton.html

 

[ashworth]

I see from one of the links above that the Alfreton Urban Area has a population of 41,000 people. That does not even include the wider area that the station has the potential to serve.

Thetford has a poulation of 21,000.
Ely 15,000
Grantham 35,000
March 20,000

That's all from me. I am not going to get involved in a prolonged, useless argument.
Just to say that if you have only viewed Alfreton from the train then you can get the wrong impression. The station is right on the edge of the town and from the train it looks a dismal place in the middle of nowhere, but isn't that the case with the view from the train at many stations.

 

[WillPS]

My experiences of travelling to Sheffield via Worksop is that very few people from the Mansfield area make this journey because of the 45-50 minute wait at Worksop on the outward journey. Now that is a missed opportunity. I am sure that there would be large numbers of people who would travel from the Mansfield area to Sheffield if only there was a through service or at least decent reliable connections at Worksop. The journey from Mansfield to Sheffield can take up to 2 hours by train for a journey that is only about 45 minutes up the M1.

Got to agree, it always seems damned foolish that they've not timetabled the trains to connect at Worksop, or hell, is an extension of the Robin Hood Line up to Sheffield not a viable prospect?

I could be wrong, but I think the RHL is financially backed by Nottinghamshire County Council, whilst there's some kind of backing from Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive on the stops Northern serve between Worksop and Sheffield. A merge up of these two services (even if only off-peak when Northern's Lincoln trains start terminating at Worksop) makes sense at least in my head.

Bit harsh maybe? Careful, or the whole of Alfreton will be after you!

And with the amount of times I saw that town name crop on that BNP Memberlist - that is something to be fearful of!

And my guess is that you've only ever seen the station?
Yes, the station is rubbish, but the town itself has hundreds of years of history, plus Alfreton Hall and King Alfred's Banquetting Hall. Study the facts before you accuse a lovely town of being "horrible". :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfreton
http://www.derbyshireuk.net/alfreton.html

I've seen Alfreton been through it loads (not always on the train) and have even had the pleasure of spending almost an hour there. I still think it's a dosshole, much like the rest of North and West Nottinghamshire towns.

I see from one of the links above that the Alfreton Urban Area has a population of 41,000 people. That does not even include the wider area that the station has the potential to serve.

Thetford has a poulation of 21,000.
Ely 15,000
Grantham 35,000
March 20,000

That's all from me. I am not going to get involved in a prolonged, useless argument.
Just to say that if you have only viewed Alfreton from the train then you can get the wrong impression. The station is right on the edge of the town and from the train it looks a dismal place in the middle of nowhere, but isn't that the case with the view from the train at many stations.

I didn't realise Alfreton was quite so big. I still think that it is just as well served by one train as two..

And for the record, Thetford is Breckland's only major connecting railway station, especially for those wanting access to the towns and cities of central and western England (and the branches that run off them). Breckland has a population of just over 100,000 btw, and it's a common trait of Norfolk drivers to not leave Norfolk, using the train when neccessary to cross the country.

I do however conded that this is needless tit for tat and that too is the last I have to say on the 'Alfreton might aswell just die' conversation. Like I said I doubt it even makes that much difference on a journey.

 

[Urobach]

Would Ripley customers use Alfreton or Langley Mill?

 

[WillPS]

Probably Alfreton, especially from December.

 

[1D53]

You could also blame your local socialist politicians. It seems that those in the North West bleated louder (or for longer) about their lack of rolling stock, and thus were given 3 cl180's for 2 years. As on this route, they cannot run at 125mph on much of their chosen route in the North West, but will provide additional capacity.

Maybe with a East Midlands MP now bin the hot seat instead of a North West MPO you may see some changes.

The reason for Northern having 180's has little to do with the politicians, the simple fact is that vhf has made the timetable in the North West unachievable due to lack of units.

 

[WillPS]

So can anybody shed any light at all on what Norwich - Liverpool will be getting come December?

 

[Techniquest]

I'm siding with you here. No matter how much of a case Aureal makes for it, the behaviour is standard of any passenger faced with the prospect of drop in service. Efficiency should be paramount, both allocatively and productively.

Woo, something I can't find fault in there!

Nothing Aureol's told me of Alfreton has persuaded me to visit the place, sorry Aureol!

Anyway, enough of the pointless debate from me now.

 

[Aureol]

Nothing Aureol's told me of Alfreton has persuaded me to visit the place, sorry Aureol!

I'm not persuading you to visit Alfreton. Why would I even want you to? :?

Anyway, enough of the pointless debate from me now.

Okay

 

[P156KWJ]

It does need to have longer trains on the route, with fewer stops. The early morning service stops can be justified, as these are commuter stops. However, I can't help but feel that 2 158s are the minimum that should be allowed. End to End it's one of the longest operations in the country, and would IMO be far better off running as an XC service. But for most trains, the stops only need to be Widnes, Warrington, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Nottingham,Grantham, Peterborough, March, Ely, Thetford & Norwich. Voyagers or Meridians/Pioneers would be nice, especially as they'd provide first class accomodation & proper onboard catering, but I can't see it happening. It's amazing how 'intercity' is defined as SW-NE and this service runs SE-NW. I you draw them on the railway map they make almost a perfect cross, meeting at Sheffield.

you've contradicted yourself there, you suggest stopping at March... whereas usually it doesn't anyway!! EMT advertise all stations between Manchester and Sheffield, and Peterborough and Norwich as stoppers... never knew that they called at Eccles Road! I know the only eastbound Brandon train leaves Nottingham about 0515 on saturdays only

 

[ultrabox]

Oh dear. The passengers on the Liverpool to Norwich route are in revolt and have launched a website in protest of EMT's poor service by sending sardines to the MD of East Midlands Trains, Tim Shoveller. Check out this site at http://trainsardine.org/index.htm

 

[P156KWJ]

oh dear, they've contradicted themselves too:

EAST Midlands Trains has confirmed that they have been awarded only three carriages out of the 1,300 additional carriages allocated to the UK rail network. The three new carriages are expected sometime in the next five years-they refuse to be specific.

Basically saying that indeed, it's not really their fault, saying in the website that fact the DfT has to approve extra rolling stock

In recognition for the part they have played in creating the troubled Liverpool to Norwich Line, we have sent sardines, in a spirit of love, to the following...
Head of East Midlands Trains, Tim Shoveller, for not appearing to solve the problems after managing the franchise for the past twelve months. Send your own sardines to: Tim Shoveller, FREEPOST DY940, Derby, DE1 9BR

Now they are asking you to send sardines to him as it is (obviously according to them) his fault, contradicting the above

EAST Midlands Trains could solve its carriage shortage problems by employing Station Shovers.
Station Shovers, which are used extensively in China, stand in groups of four on platforms. When a two carriage train arrives they help shove as many people as possible onto the overcrowded train-almost doubling the number of people that can be stuffed on board.

And first of all they were asking for more carriages, now they are asking to be shoved on to already over-crowded trains; make your mind up. :roll:

 

[Guinness]

Oh dear. The passengers on the Liverpool to Norwich route are in revolt and have launched a website in protest of EMT's poor service by sending sardines to the MD of East Midlands Trains, Tim Shoveller. Check out this site at http://trainsardine.org/index.htm

And that will do what? ROSCOs can't order new build because of this DfT competition fiasco which could take years to sort out, Stagecoach Plc would probably never pay up for additional 158s. EMT are suffering a Stock Shortage across the Network, along with most other TOCs. EMT wanted to solve some of problems with 31s but the leasing costs were too high.

The problem is with the DfT (again) for the allocation of Rolling Stock when Central Trains was split up. It was clearly a big balls up with figures been made up by Central Trains.

So sending Tim Shoveller Sardines will do nothing, apart from waste your money. Send them to the DfT with some a few million pounds for extra trains.

 

[Techniquest]

In the current economic climate, it seems mental to want to waste your money on sardines and then spending a fortune on posting them!

What a crazy idea...

Mind, Mr. Shoveller could have a nice fry-up

 

[me123]

I can just see the EMT Great British Breakfast featuring Grilled Sardines tomorrow

 

[Techniquest]

Got me laughing for ages that did!

That would be funky though, fair dos. Don't like sardines myself, maybe it's an East Midlands thing.

 

[WillPS]

to info@trainsardine.org
date Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 1:41 AM
subject Misplaced Frustration

Hey,
Let me first start by saying that whilst I have a passing interest in
rail and adore travelling by train, I'm not an enthusiast; you're
unlikely to catch me standing on bridges taking photos of trains (not
that I have a problem with that either).

I have, for many years now, been making use of the former Central
Citylink service that runs between Liverpool and Norwich; my family
home is in Nottingham, my grandparents and cousins live up in Norfolk
not far from Thetford, and since I've started university I've lived in
Sheffield. Additionally, a close friend of mine lives in Liverpool, so
as I'm sure you can see it's a pretty good service for me...

And I must say it can't be only me it's useful for, as it's pretty
much always been reasonably busy (by that I mean at least a third to
three quarters of all seats taken).

Central Trains, whilst having a pretty abysmal record on their local
services (I personally can recall being stuck at Uttoxeter on their
Alton Towers all inclusive, waiting for a delayed train which never
arrived followed by a cancellation followed by a train shortened to
Derby - and of all the places to be stuck Uttoxeter is probably one of
the least interesting places I can imagine, I digress) actually in my
experience ran their CityLink services rather well. This has
deteriorated over the last 18 months, there's no two ways about it.

I must tell you that whilst it's natural to blame East Midlands
Trains, Tim Shoveller or Stagecoach for the problems on the Norwich -
Liverpool service, it really isn't their fault (at least up to now,
anyway). I've read up on the situation, and it seems that there was
more than a little bit of foul play... National Express, the company
that ran the redundant train operating company Central Trains, did not
provide the correct figures for train usage on the line, and therefore
messed up the incoming operator's chance of having an adequate fleet
to cope with the demand. The DFT are also partly to blame for
accepting the figures without somehow validating them themselves.
Because of all this, Stagecoach told the DFT that they could do the
route with fewer/cheaper trains, offering better value for money. This
isn't their fault - the figures they had available to them backed up
their claim, and the DFT was confident the service could be provided
on their terms.

The problem now is that there are no available (suitable) trains on
the network. Your website at one point speaks of "1,300 additional
carriages" - well I'm sorry but this figure is not representational of
the amount of units that could be put to work on the line. On its own
the figure is rather misleading in that it suggests that these 1300
extra carriages are just waiting to be used - well most are right now
in service in some form or other. It's all very well saying "take them
off [whoever]" - but then they themselves have a problem. Even if they
were just lying about this does not mean they're suitable. First of
all you have to take into account the weight of a train: the soil
beneath tracks on the lines particularly in Norfolk is so bad that
continual use of heavy trains will cause the line to sink. Although
I've yet to see it myself, apparently between Ely and Thetford there
are telegraph poles and pylons which are at quite an adverse angle
because of the poor soil beneath them (poor for a railway line, of
course for agriculture it's wonderful). The prospect of an old
fashioned locomotive pulling carriages is just not a suitable one for
this line; it has to be operated by (Diesel) Multiple Units, or DMUs
for short. Believe me when I tell you that no DMUs have been available
to East Midlands Trains up to now (I'll come back to this later). Add
to this the fact that drivers must be intensively trained on each type
(or class) of train they drive, and you have a real National Rail
headache.

The problem isn't just with EMT either - take a trip on any of
CrossCountry's ex-Virgin routes and you'll see the problem spans
further. The rail network overall is suffering from a disproportionate
climb in patronage when considered against the amount of new trains
entering into service. Trains are taking a preposterous amount of time
to appear (18 months), and a franchisee has to make an investment
worthwhile given their limited franchise period. For example, if East
Midlands Trains ordered a train today, it's unlikely to go 'online'
until May 2010 - EMT's franchise ends in 2015, so there's no guarantee
that they'll actually get more than 4½ years use out of a train which
would cost millions.

However - I do find one thing quite offensive about East Midlands
Trains: the new timetable is coming and with it so is EMT's chance to
make a real positive impact on customers. Supposedly EMT is getting
their hands on Hull Trains' shiny Pioneers (very similar to the
Meridian trains EMT run to London) - and where are they going? To
flipping Corby. I simply don't understand how a town with a population
of just a little over 50,000 is going to provide the demand for a 4/5
car Pioneer direct to London. Okay, so Kettering are going to be
making use of the service too but surely it would have made more sense
to jig some more of the other services St. Pancras services to go
through Kettering and then have a refurbished 'dogbox' or two forming
the branch between Kettering and Corby? Or hell - why not just run
that service with some of the trains we currently have on Norwich -
Liverpool? My only assumption is that this wont last in its planned
form.

I guess the proof is in the pudding, and East Midlands Trains could
pull something out of the bag to make the service more comfortable. I
just think that your website is misleading the vulnerable general
public - the railways are a complicated beast, and your overly
simplistic view is pointing the finger far too firmly in one
direction, and at least in my opinion it's hardly said
person/company's fault.

I hope you take this into consideration

Regards,
William Squires

Stuff in italics is basically copy and pasted from this thread.

 

[Pumbaa]

Nice. Would be interesting to see the reply if you get one.

 

[Techniquest]

Hasn't Mr. Shoveller already commented publically on the topic of overcrowding and chronic shortage of DMUs for EMT? If so, why should he reply to what is probably the millionth e-mail/whatever about it.

If anything, we should all be complaining massively to the DaFT, they're the keyholders to the rolling stock...

 

[AlexS]

Yes, but he's hardly a PR guru is he.

That televised meet the manager session at Kettering well and truly proved that!

'That is ridiculous, you're putting up fares and reducing the number of trains here for my journey'

'Yes, it is ridiculous, but only in the context of your own particular journey'

Taking agreeing with the customer to far longer lengths than intended I suspect, and forgetting the reassuring bit!

 

[P156KWJ]

unfortunate as it is, you can't suit absolutely everybody, same goes with roads... my dad lives right next to the new A612 bypass... we live with it!

 

[Donny Dave]

Just reading back through the last couple of pages, I don't agree to cutting stops from the service. They provide important links to other parts of the country. By cutting some stops out, peopl will instead turn to driving, thus creaating even more congestion on the roads.

While Warrington has a good service on the WCML, and reasonable links to the North East, try driving to Norwich in the same time as the train takes.

Langley Mill and Alfreton do need the service to call there, as it provides links to the North West, North East, the Cross Country network, London and Anglia. With Northern starting the Leeds - Nottingham service in December, this will provide a lot of badly needed capacity between Sheffield and Nottingham, so these 2 stations will benefit.

March and Thetford also need the train to call there, as it also provides good links. Changing at Peterborough for the North East and Scotland for example.

 

[WillPS]

Hasn't Mr. Shoveller already commented publically on the topic of overcrowding and chronic shortage of DMUs for EMT? If so, why should he reply to what is probably the millionth e-mail/whatever about it.

If anything, we should all be complaining massively to the DaFT, they're the keyholders to the rolling stock...

That e-mail was addressed to whoever it is that runs that silly train sardine website.

Sorry if there was any confusion.

 

[Techniquest]

Oh right, I've got you now.

 

[me123]

Good e-mail WillPS; hopefully they'll realise where the issues really lie.

Sending the sardines was humorous and gets a point across, yes, but it achieves nothing, makes them look rather silly, and is a waste of money.

 

[WillPS]

I really really think they've got it all wrong. I think EMT aren't playing their cards right with the 222s, but overall this is not their fault. If anywhere, the sardines should be sent to the offices of National Express - who frankly are well past caring.

Tim, especially, I think is doing a great job of keeping the public informed. Stagecoach, overall, have really surprised me - of course new build would be nice but the fact that we'll have a (hopefully) consistently good fleet in a few years is surely a good thing.

Are the 153s and 156s going to have their interiors done during the franchise?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we end up with a couple 150s as soon as London Midland start shedding theirs, too.

 

[Kneedown]

but the fact that we'll have a (hopefully) consistently good fleet in a few years

If that happens without any new units then i'll happily stick my own carriage key up my own backside!

783 has been a complete disaster since Deltarail got their hands on it. Only hope is for EMT to cancel the contract and send them all to Wabtec who actually know what they are doing.