Links lost at electrification

[tbtc]

Following a discussion with Nym about the effects of the "Lancashire Triangle" electrification I was wondering what through services were lost when lines were electrified?

Did the Sunderland/ Middlesbrough - London services end when the ECML was electrified, or did these continue for a bit afterwards (or get withdrawn before the wires)?

As far as I remember, the Glasgow Queen Street - Falkirk - London service was withdrawn when the ECML wires were completed (replaced by a service to Glasgow Central via the curve at Carstairs)

On a similar note, once the GWML is wired up, will we see the end of direct London services for Henley/ Pembroke/ Weston? Or Manchester - Scarborough trains if/when the TPE core is electrified?

 

[ainsworth74]

Hull lost nearly all its London services when the wires went up, as I'm pretty sure that it was then that it went to 1tpd each way.

The Cleveland Executive (Newcastle - London via Sunderland and Middlesbrough) I have a feeling carried on for a while after electrification but not by much, it definitely didn't make it as a far as privatization.

To be honest whilst I would hope that Scarborough would get wired up I doubt it will so more likely I think is that Scarborough will get tagged onto the current York - Blackpool service so yes I would expect to see an end to direct services to Manchester.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Teeside Executive continued following electrification, I think it was privatisation that killed it.

Glasgow services switched to Central at electrification and many more services ran

 

[sprinterguy]

I was only very young at the time, but I have no recollection of HSTs from Sunderland (I lived alongside the Durham Coast line so I quickly became aware of the railways’ activities) in the very early nineties except on diversions, which suggests to me that the “Cleveland Executive” through Sunderland and Hartlepool was withdrawn at electrification or very soon afterwards, though gordonthemoron is no doubt right about the leg south from Middlesborough.

 

[gordonthemoron]

IIRC, the northbound Cleveland Executive also served Newcastle

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When the WCML wires went up the through services from Euston to Birkenhead, East Lancs and the Cumbrian coast finished, and a bit later the same thing happened to Stirling/Perth/Inverness/Stranraer (except for sleepers). Then Mid-Wales and finally Blackpool and Shrewsbury went.

 

[supervalkoinen]

When the WCML wires went up the through services from Euston to Birkenhead, East Lancs and the Cumbrian coast finished, and a bit later the same thing happened to Stirling/Perth/Inverness/Stranraer (except for sleepers). Then Mid-Wales and finally Blackpool and Shrewsbury went.

Paddington?

 

[gordonthemoron]

did Paddington-Oxford on a Paddington-Manchester service in 1983, I think there were also Paddington-Liverpool services

 

[flymo]

IIRC, the northbound Cleveland Executive also served Newcastle

As did the southbound. Mon-Sat 0530 off Newcastle (0549 ex Sunderland) into KX at 0949. 1637 off KX daily into Sunderland at 2046 and the Toon at 2113. Did these journeys quite a few times, marvellous stuff. (1984 times there). The northbound was shown as Sunderland on the screens at KX to avoid confusion with the faster services to Newcastle.

 

[DarloRich]

Following a discussion with Nym about the effects of the "Lancashire Triangle" electrification I was wondering what through services were lost when lines were electrified?

Did the Sunderland/ Middlesbrough - London services end when the ECML was electrified, or did these continue for a bit afterwards (or get withdrawn before the wires)?

As far as I remember, the Glasgow Queen Street - Falkirk - London service was withdrawn when the ECML wires were completed (replaced by a service to Glasgow Central via the curve at Carstairs)

On a similar note, once the GWML is wired up, will we see the end of direct London services for Henley/ Pembroke/ Weston? Or Manchester - Scarborough trains if/when the TPE core is electrified?

I am pretty sure that it was privitisation that killed off the Sunderland/Boro - Kings Cross services. I am sure they ran into the mid 90's. GC seem to suggest that there is a market for them!

(where there two trains at one point, A cleveland Executive Boro London and a seperate Sunderland London train?)

Hull did, however, loose many of the direct servies to London. GNER ran a token service which is why Hull Trains was able to find a popular niche.

I also think there were direct trains to Harrogate ( up and down ) on a daily basis and perhaps Scarbourough which were killed off by privitsation.

I am fairly sure that the Tyne Tees Pullman ( also killed off in this form by privitasation) ran Kings Cross - Darlington, Durham? Newcastle!

 

[flymo]

(where there two trains at one point, A cleveland Executive Boro London and a seperate Sunderland London train?)

I don't think so. The Cleveland Exec ran Newcastle - KX via Boro both north and southbound. There was about a 7 minute layover at Boro while the driver switched ends.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Paddington?

No, Euston. There were 2 through services a day, one tacked on to the Emerald Isle Express at Chester, the other merged with a Blackpool train at Crewe. These were in addition to the 2-hourly service to Paddington which also stopped of course. I suppose you could say Gobowen-Wrexham also lost through services on electrification because they didn't extend Euston-West Mids services beyond Shrewsbury.

 

[flymo]

Just to add to the questions here, what about the sleepers on the ECML. Were they all switched to the WCML after the wires went up on the ECML?

 

[DarloRich]

Just to add to the questions here, what about the sleepers on the ECML. Were they all switched to the WCML after the wires went up on the ECML?

I believe so - i think there was some argument that the market wasnt there becuase train times had been reduced so much, plus the usual stuff about engineering works.
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I don't think so. The Cleveland Exec ran Newcastle - KX via Boro both north and southbound. There was about a 7 minute layover at Boro while the driver switched ends.

Could have sworn there was a Boro - Northallerton? - Thirsk?-York -Kings Cross service in the early-mid 80's formed of an HST

 

[clagmonster]

I am pretty sure that it was privitisation that killed off the Sunderland/Boro - Kings Cross services. I am sure they ran into the mid 90's. GC seem to suggest that there is a market for them!

(where there two trains at one point, A cleveland Executive Boro London and a seperate Sunderland London train?)

Hull did, however, loose many of the direct servies to London. GNER ran a token service which is why Hull Trains was able to find a popular niche.

I also think there were direct trains to Harrogate ( up and down ) on a daily basis and perhaps Scarbourough which were killed off by privitsation.

I am fairly sure that the Tyne Tees Pullman ( also killed off in this form by privitasation) ran Kings Cross - Darlington, Durham? Newcastle!

Cleethorpes also killed off by privatisation. I remember the 'Boro running (though I don't remember it running to Sunderland/Newcastle, I was very young though), I suspect that they both finished at the same time.

 

[flymo]

I believe so - i think there was some argument that the market wasnt there becuase train times had been reduced so much, plus the usual stuff about engineering works.
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Could have sworn there was a Boro - Northallerton? - Thirsk?-York -Kings Cross service in the early-mid 80's formed of an HST

Well the Cleveland Exec was an HST but started from Newcastle. In '84 the times southbound were Sunderland 0549, Hartlepool 0615, Stockton 0631, Boro 0645-0652, Eaglescliffe 0705u, Northallerton 0719, York 0743 Stevenage 0924s and KX 0949. Northbound was KX 1637, Stevenage 1657u, Newark 1757, York 1845, Northallerton 1911, Eaglescliffe 1927s, Boro 1943-1950, Stockton 2000, Hartlepool 2019, Sunderland 2046, Newcastle 2113. Of course it is entirely possible that stopping patterns changed in the years around there but I'm pretty sure the Exec ran through to Newcastle all the time it ran. Always open to corrections though.

 

[DarloRich]

I wonder if it was earlier than that! You are right about the later period. i thought they combined the trains and kept the Cleveland Executive name.

 

[tbtc]

Just to add to the questions here, what about the sleepers on the ECML. Were they all switched to the WCML after the wires went up on the ECML?

I can't remember how much time elapsed between the Morpeth crash and the Sleepers moving to the WCML
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When the WCML wires went up the through services from Euston to Birkenhead, East Lancs and the Cumbrian coast finished, and a bit later the same thing happened to Stirling/Perth/Inverness/Stranraer (except for sleepers). Then Mid-Wales and finally Blackpool and Shrewsbury went.

Where did the Birkenhead services terminate/ run round? Didn't know there was such a route that late on.

 

[Gareth]

I believe that when the Merseyrail Northern Line was first extended to Hunts Cross, trains coming from Manchester terminated there, instead of going up the WCML spur to Lime Street. This didn't last very long, though.

 

[Greenback]

I can't remember how much time elapsed between the Morpeth crash and the Sleepers moving to the WCML.

IIRC the sleepers moved in 1987/88. Wasn't the Morpeth crash around 1984?

 

[NightatLaira]

Not really a link lost immediately after electrification, but an interesting hangover from BR days:

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure I remember going on a Euston to Shrewsbury service running for a couple years in the early nineties via Northampton-Cov-Bham Int-BNS-Wolves-Telford-Shrewsbury. It was at about the same time they were introducing the new 321s and IIRC it was formed of the very new '166' stock we now see in the Thames valley region on the GWML, but in orgininal NSE colours but without 'Network SouthEast' written down the side.

Things were very different back then. Sometimes just one 'Intercity' train an hour on the WCML West Midlands route (bearing in mind that in those days there were also Paddington to Liverpool services via Oxford, Leamington Spa and Bham New Street - normally 37 or 43 hauled with a mixture of mk3, mk2 and occasionally even mk1 stock). Often an 86 with mk2s was used for the hourly New St to Euston service; quite a radical change to the 3 pendolinos an hour that we have now, and they would very rarely skip any of the major stations: the typical calling points being: Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction and London Euston! I was once on such a service that even called at Leighton Buzzard despite being branded as Intercity!

And before Trent Valley 4 tracking it was also quite common for Euston to Manchester services to go fast through Coventry, and then via Stechford and Bescot perhaps throwing in a stop at Stafford. I once even remember doing this route on the Caledonian Sleeper as recently as 2003!

A lot's changed on the WCML in 20 years when you think about it...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Where did the Birkenhead services terminate/ run round? Didn't know there was such a route that late on.

At Woodside, where all services terminated until it closed in 1967.
The Euston portions might have gone about 1964 though.

 

[PinzaC55]

Well the Cleveland Exec was an HST but started from Newcastle. In '84 the times southbound were Sunderland 0549, Hartlepool 0615, Stockton 0631, Boro 0645-0652, Eaglescliffe 0705u, Northallerton 0719, York 0743 Stevenage 0924s and KX 0949. Northbound was KX 1637, Stevenage 1657u, Newark 1757, York 1845, Northallerton 1911, Eaglescliffe 1927s, Boro 1943-1950, Stockton 2000, Hartlepool 2019, Sunderland 2046, Newcastle 2113. Of course it is entirely possible that stopping patterns changed in the years around there but I'm pretty sure the Exec ran through to Newcastle all the time it ran. Always open to corrections though.

I remember travelling with my girlfriend in 1986 on the 5.49 as far as Middlesbrough then down to Whitby. There was hardly anybody on the train from Sunderland as you'd expect with such a ludicrous departure time. We felt like the Walking Dead when we got off at the Boro.

 

[northwichcat]

Going back a bit didn't Manchester-Sheffield-St Pancras end when the West Coast was electrified (before MML did a temporary reinstatement much later on)?
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Where did the Birkenhead services terminate/ run round? Didn't know there was such a route that late on.

Liverpool Central and Birkenhead's long distance services continued until the 1970s, whereas the WCML electrics between Liverpool and London were up by 1962.

 

[tbtc]

I remember travelling with my girlfriend in 1986 on the 5.49 as far as Middlesbrough then down to Whitby. There was hardly anybody on the train from Sunderland as you'd expect with such a ludicrous departure time. We felt like the Walking Dead when we got off at the Boro.

To be fair, Middlesbrough can feel like a bad zombie film sometimes

 

[Striker]

To be fair, Middlesbrough can feel like a bad zombie film sometimes

True story. My only visit to Middlesbrough was on a quiet sunday morning. Within 10 minutes of being there I was propositioned by a woman on the street asking if I was looking for a good time.

 

[sprinterguy]

True story. My only visit to Middlesbrough was on a quiet sunday morning. Within 10 minutes of being there I was propositioned by a woman on the street asking if I was looking for a good time.

If you came into Middlesborough on the train then that would be no great surprise: Middlesboroughs’ railway station is/was notorious for being a hot spot for Teessides’ red light district. I sometimes used to wonder whether it was more than just the extensive railfreight activity that made the area such a draw for spotters…
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To be fair, Middlesbrough can feel like a bad zombie film sometimes

Only sometimes? More like all the time! No offence to any resident smoggies on the forum, but IMO Middlesborough is absolutely awful.

 

[DarloRich]

If you came into Middlesborough on the train then that would be no great surprise: Middlesboroughs’ railway station is/was notorious for being a hot spot for Teesside’s’ red light district. I sometimes used to wonder whether it was more than just the extensive railfreight activity that made the area such a draw for spotters…

The local authority and police have cleaned the area out and tarted it up a bit. The station itself has also been done up quite abit.

The town itself still like being in a zombie film mind ( would help if there was some work!)

 

[spacehopper]

Is this the reason why the sidings at Boro are called HST sidings? Where they built or even used by the Cleveland Executive?

 

[DarloRich]

Is this the reason why the sidings at Boro are called HST sidings? Where they built or even used by the Cleveland Executive?

where are these sidings?