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Level Crossing lesson for cyclist

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michael769

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So people are idiots, therefore we should cater for them.

When the train driver who hits one may feel unable to return to his job, or where upwards of 400 people can be delayed for hours then yes we do need to cater for them - for the sake of their victims.

Extend that argument, and you'd have barriers across the road at red traffic lights to stop people driving past them.

The average car does not carry hundreds of passengers - the risks and impacts are not comparable.
 

EM2

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PermitToTravel

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I've been clipped by cyclists when crossing a road at a crossing, and it hurts. I fail to see how anyone can say that a cyclist poses no real risk to a pedestrian.

Sure it a car fails to stop at lights, it's going to hurt a lot more, but how likely is that to happen? Lights change, maybe one or even two jump but then they stop and remain stopped.

A cyclist will happily go through at any point so you never know you're safe.

I am primarily talking about London though.

Motorists do break rules though, including occasionally running red lights in the middle of London with impunity. I would posit that it is simply human nature, for when people in general believe that they can break a rule to gain a few seconds at no cost to themselves, with no repercussions, and without bothering anybody who can do something about it, to do so. Cyclists, having no unique identification numbers, tend to feel this more often

Then you have the kind of idiot (like the one filmed) that fails to even consider safety, solely the value of their time - the people who walk/cycle/drive through red level crossings, because a train isn't usually there, so one won't be there this time. I only hope that when people like this remove themselves from the gene pool, it is in a manner that, unlike making friends with the underside of a train, doesn't delay thousands of innocent people
 

cjp

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Because there are a lot more cars than motorcycles and motorcycles than there are bicycles.

I am surprised to read that there are more motor cyclists in London than bicycles.
Would you be good enough to provide your data source for this statement?
 

Tomnick

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When the train driver who hits one may feel unable to return to his job, or where upwards of 400 people can be delayed for hours then yes we do need to cater for them - for the sake of their victims.
Referring to this specific and your previous comment about half vs full barriers - abolishing AHBs might save a few people from their own stupidity...but who pays the huge cost of the initial installation (including the signalling alterations!) and the ongoing supervisory cost? No doubt those complaining that their local AHB is dangerous would complain equally strongly at the longer delays caused by its replacement!
 

Deerfold

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And of course someone who's driven across a little late as the barrier is coming down may find their way blocked on the other side if they now have a full barrier.
 

jon0844

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According to this,

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ped-casualties-in-greater-london-march-2009.pdf

You are very much more likely to be injured by a car than a bicycle in central London. Only 1% of pedestrian casualties were with a bicycle. Motorcycles caused far more accidents also.

Unless a car mounts the pavement, or I start crossing before the cars have stopped, my risk as a pedestrian from being hit by a car are minimal. Most accidents would be down to me making an error, like stepping out in the road. I can well believe that this is more common, but it doesn't matter to me.

I am far more at risk from a car accident when I am in a car or another vehicle, not when I'm on foot.

But a cyclist is a risk to me when I'm on a road or pavement, so for me there's always going to be more risk from a bike collision.
 

Tomnick

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And of course someone who's driven across a little late as the barrier is coming down may find their way blocked on the other side if they now have a full barrier.
Exactly why full barrier crossings must be confirmed to be clear before the protecting signal can be cleared.
 

stut

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But a cyclist is a risk to me when I'm on a road or pavement, so for me there's always going to be more risk from a bike collision.

How is a law-abiding cyclist a risk to you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Who is talking about train drivers and vehicle drivers? I'm referring to a vulnerable cyclist.

You seemed to be arguing that half-barriers were acceptable because the vehicle driving on to the crossing was at fault, and therefore responsible for their own injury or worse. Problem is, it's not just their own safety they're risking.
 

soil

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Unless a car mounts the pavement

That does happen.

or I start crossing before the cars have stopped, my risk as a pedestrian from being hit by a car are minimal. Most accidents would be down to me making an error, like stepping out in the road. I can well believe that this is more common, but it doesn't matter to me.

Most pedestrian accidents are down to pedestrian error, however around one third are due to driver error.

That one third certainly affects you, as you can't anticipate all driver errors.

I am far more at risk from a car accident when I am in a car or another vehicle, not when I'm on foot.

Absolutely not. You are twenty times more likely to be in an accident as a pedestrian when measured on a distance basis, and twice as likely on a time basis.

But a cyclist is a risk to me when I'm on a road or pavement, so for me there's always going to be more risk from a bike collision.

There are significantly more annual deaths caused by cars mounting the pavement ALONE than ALL deaths caused by bicycles.

So if a bicycle is at risk to you on the road or pavement, cars are a greater risk.
 

burneside

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How is a law-abiding cyclist a risk to you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have you tried walking through central London? You'll soon notice there are plenty of cyclists who are not law-abiding! I fear cyclists far more than cars on my daily walk from Charing Cross.
 

stut

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Have you tried walking through central London? You'll soon notice there are plenty of cyclists who are not law-abiding! I fear cyclists far more than cars on my daily walk from Charing Cross.

I walk and cycle through central London on a daily basis.

There is certainly a significant and visible minority of idiots on bikes, I agree (as on most forms of transport). But perception of risk is an odd thing. People get terrified of flying, despite the fact that it's many times safer than the drive to the airport, for example.

I've certainly seen cars pull off far more dangerous manoeuvres in the last 24 hours. Fiat 500, Barbican, this morning's rush hour, blocking the pedestrian crossing as the lights change, decides, about 30 seconds into the phase of traffic going across, to step on the gas and cause pedestrians, bikes and cars to slam on the brakes.

BMW 3-series, last night's rush hour, narrow one-way street in Clerkenwell. Comes steaming round a blind corner the wrong way, leading to quick evasive action by pedestrians and me, on a bike.

Addison Lee cab, yesterday lunchtime, Aldgate. Goes sailing right through pedestrian lights (pedestrians already crossing), realises a bus is coming from a side street, then reverses into the crossing (pedestrians still crossing). Speeds off shortly afterwards.

And I could go off on endless rants about lemming-like buried-in-iPhone pedestrians around the City. Seriously, I can keep an eye out, but I'm not psychic. It's a big city, idiots are everywhere. My biggest worry is the idiots with a ton of metal.
 
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jon0844

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I am not particularly worried about flying, most notably because there's little I can do about anything. I can't jump out of the way, unless perhaps a plane is diving towards me.

I'm now supposed to believe that I'm at risk of cars mounting the pavement and wiping me out, but my perception tells me that this isn't very likely. I'd put that up there with something falling off a building.

In London, I walk a lot because it's often faster than taking the tube or a bus - and it's also good exercise. Therefore, for me, the risk of harm from a non law-abiding cyclist (not sure why anyone asked what I had to fear from a law-abiding one) is high - and proven because I've been hit.

I've also witnessed many other people getting clipped, and on crossings there have been countless situations where cyclists (and not just couriers, but more likely commuters or those on a Boris Bike) where pedestrians have fought back by attempting to grab those who come through, or even punching them. The cyclists never hang around to fight back - as they clearly know they were in the wrong.

On the pavement, there's also what I'd consider a big difference between cycling slowly (or just creeping, even walking with your feet) and the cycling that is more common - namely at speed and weaving in and around people - because the cyclist sees pedestrians as an annoying obstruction akin to the cars and buses that annoy them on the street.

The fatal mistake is that pedestrians don't all walk in a straight line, especially children. It's only down to luck and perhaps a cyclist managing to stop in time, or swerve, that there aren't more serious accidents.

I'm also wondering how many of these would ever be reported in any statistics? I mean, who calls the police when they get hit by an anonymous biker that is long gone? Who reports those who are illegally on the pavement who nearly hit a buggy? Nobody I bet.

But it doesn't mean it doesn't happen because it absolutely does, and you can go and see for yourself every day of the week. In Stockholm, there's now a speed limit for cyclists (albeit one that can't be enforced) after an increase in deaths caused by pedestrians being hit by cyclists.

I shouldn't need to say it, but there are plenty of good cyclists out there, just a low percentage in a busy city because of the ever growing number of idiots, or arrogant people that actually argue that they're not doing anything wrong - and are usually those who then come out with loads of drivel to say that there are plenty of more serious things to worry about.

I guess the slim chance of all out nuclear war is more dangerous than a speeding cyclist going through a pedestrian crossing, so let's add that to the pot of excuses!
 
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stut

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I shouldn't need to say it, but there are plenty of good cyclists out there, just a low percentage in a busy city because of the ever growing number of idiots, or arrogant people that actually argue that they're not doing anything wrong - and are usually those who then come out with loads of drivel to say that there are plenty of more serious things to worry about.

Do you honestly believe that the majority of cyclists ride dangerously and/or illegally?

I guess the slim chance of all out nuclear war is more dangerous than a speeding cyclist going through a pedestrian crossing, so let's add that to the pot of excuses!

What an utter straw man.
 

EM2

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Do you honestly believe that the majority of cyclists ride dangerously and/or illegally?
Again, based purely on my personal experience, I would say yes.
Whether that is jumping red lights, riding on the pavement, riding without lights after dark, riding with passengers and/or dangerous loads, not signalling before turning, riding the wrong way on one-way streets (having passed a No Entry sign), even riding through railway stations and on platforms.
And by the majority, I mean more than half.
 

FGW_DID

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Do you honestly believe that the majority of cyclists ride dangerously and/or illegally?
.

I think it would be unfair to say the majority, definitely a minority but unfortunately not a small minority (especially Oxford City Centre, bloody students!!<()
 

Buttsy

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I think it would be unfair to say the majority, definitely a minority but unfortunately not a small minority (especially Oxford City Centre, bloody students!!<()

We're not all students and we don't all ignore red lights or have no lights at night...;)
 

stut

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Whether that is jumping red lights, riding on the pavement, riding without lights after dark, riding with passengers and/or dangerous loads, not signalling before turning, riding the wrong way on one-way streets (having passed a No Entry sign), even riding through railway stations and on platforms.
And by the majority, I mean more than half.

Frankly, I think that's borderline deluded, but it's clearly the perception you have.

I would add, though, that a number of roads have very poorly marked cycle contraflows and shared-use paths, but I suspect that's not a common feature in your experience.
 

jon0844

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Do you honestly believe that the majority of cyclists ride dangerously and/or illegally?

In London? Yes.

Absolutely.

100%. (As in 100% I believe it, not 100% of cyclists breaking the law).

Elsewhere? Where people perhaps still have some respect for others, or simply aren't in such a rush, no I don't.
 

stut

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In London? Yes.

Absolutely.

100%. (As in 100% I believe it, not 100% of cyclists breaking the law).

Elsewhere? Where people perhaps still have some respect for others, or simply aren't in such a rush, no I don't.

Fair enough. Glad to see your prejudices laid bare.
 

soil

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I'm now supposed to believe that I'm at risk of cars mounting the pavement and wiping me out, but my perception tells me that this isn't very likely. I'd put that up there with something falling off a building.

Perhaps.

In London, I walk a lot because it's often faster than taking the tube or a bus - and it's also good exercise. Therefore, for me, the risk of harm from a non law-abiding cyclist (not sure why anyone asked what I had to fear from a law-abiding one) is high - and proven because I've been hit.

An anecdote is not proof.

Statistically you are at vastly greater risk from motor vehicles in London than cyclists.

It is quite possibly your perception that cyclists are more reckless and in greater proximity to pedestrians than motor vehicles. And maybe they are. But why? Because pedestrians aren't at significant risk from cyclists. So it's not a major public safety concern to curb this anti-social behaviour, it's annoying but not objectively dangerous.

I've also witnessed many other people getting clipped, and on crossings there have been countless situations where cyclists (and not just couriers, but more likely commuters or those on a Boris Bike) where pedestrians have fought back by attempting to grab those who come through, or even punching them. The cyclists never hang around to fight back - as they clearly know they were in the wrong.

That doesn't describe harm, it describes anti-social behaviour.

On the pavement, there's also what I'd consider a big difference between cycling slowly (or just creeping, even walking with your feet) and the cycling that is more common - namely at speed and weaving in and around people - because the cyclist sees pedestrians as an annoying obstruction akin to the cars and buses that annoy them on the street.

Where are you seeing all these cyclists on the pavement? It's my experience that pavement cycling is de rigeur out in the provinces but less common in London. What I do see in London is cyclists going through red lights.

The fatal mistake is that pedestrians don't all walk in a straight line, especially children. It's only down to luck and perhaps a cyclist managing to stop in time, or swerve, that there aren't more serious accidents.

Well it's not so much luck as inevitable. Bikes make up a quarter of rush hour traffic in central London. That's quite significant volume, so luck doesn't really come into it - if bikes were actually dangerous to pedestrians as opposed to merely annoying, then you would see large numbers of serious accidents and deaths.

We can say that for certain, because of the sheer numbers. If we see a single incident between cyclist and pedestrian we can say 'oh that was lucky, another time that pedestrian would have been wiped out'. But when we consider a whole city's accidents, we no longer need to consider luck, because if there is a real risk, then across all those thousands of daily pedestrian-cyclist encounters we would see numerous

I'm also wondering how many of these would ever be reported in any statistics? I mean, who calls the police when they get hit by an anonymous biker that is long gone? Who reports those who are illegally on the pavement who nearly hit a buggy? Nobody I bet.

'Nearly hit a buggy' is a matter of perception.

The KSI stats are pretty reliable, because they involve hospital admissions, and they show the same sort of proportions as minor injuries. So there is no reason to assume inaccuracy.

But it doesn't mean it doesn't happen because it absolutely does, and you can go and see for yourself every day of the week. In Stockholm, there's now a speed limit for cyclists (albeit one that can't be enforced) after an increase in deaths caused by pedestrians being hit by cyclists.

I'm not sure that that is true.

According to this article one particular street had a speed limit of 7 kph for cyclists:

http://www.thelocal.se/49658/20130815/

This is walking speed and unsurprisingly was ignored (cf. the speed limit on Tower Bridge of 20mph, almost universally ignored by motorists).

I don't believe that there is a city-wide speed limit for cyclists, and certainly it couldn't possibly be 7kph. It's also improbable that this speed limit resulted from some epidemic of pedestrian deaths due to bicycles. Actually according to the Wikipedia article this is one of the most famous roads in Stockholm, and a small portion is pedestrianised

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Götgatan

The 7kph speed limit is a shared space limit - they are saying 'cyclists can cycle in this very busy section of pedestrianised road, but only at walking speed'. London doesn't generally permit cycling on pedestrianised roads.

I shouldn't need to say it, but there are plenty of good cyclists out there, just a low percentage in a busy city because of the ever growing number of idiots, or arrogant people that actually argue that they're not doing anything wrong - and are usually those who then come out with loads of drivel to say that there are plenty of more serious things to worry about.

My perception is that you get a higher percentage of good cyclists in a busy city, however cities are busy and there is more conflict.

So here out in the sticks you get a fat bloke on a Toys R Us bike with no lights wobbling along the pavement and people step aside to let him past with out getting upset, whereas in London it's just too busy for this to work.

I guess the slim chance of all out nuclear war is more dangerous than a speeding cyclist going through a pedestrian crossing, so let's add that to the pot of excuses!

It's not excuses, the fact is that everyday, socially acceptable, behaviour by motorists (such as speeding, fiddling with the radio, and any of a million other distractions for car drivers) is more dangerous than any number of bicycles, and making a lot of hot air about bicycles and cyclists is real serious distraction from saving lives on the road.
 

jon0844

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I would add, though, that a number of roads have very poorly marked cycle contraflows and shared-use paths, but I suspect that's not a common feature in your experience.

I don't think they're poorly marked. But not every one way street has this, even though I think it's a good idea.

Perhaps rather too many cyclists have seen these contraflows and now assume they can do it on all roads?

Of course, besides being hit when crossing a road (and I look both ways on all one way streets as even the odd motorist can go wrong) the only people that have to deal with cyclists going the wrong way are other motorists. Usually they get out of the way and hoot, but no harm comes to anyone.

Personally, I'm worried about my own safety and don't lose sleep over a cyclist wanting to jump red lights at a junction or railway crossing - besides the harm to others, or a train driver having to wonder if s/he could have done anything and possibly never working again.

Shared use paths for cyclists are fine.. but, again, I've explained the difference between a cyclist that gives way to pedestrians and acknowledges the fact that pedestrians have RIGHT OF WAY and may not walk in a straight line, and those who now see the pavement as a road where they can cycle however they like.

Speak to anyone in London and ask what they think of cyclists. Hell, speak to the cyclists themselves. Even they'd say the same thing - many assuming that their occasional law breaking isn't a big deal.

Nevertheless, to get back on topic, I was still stunned that a cyclist would jump red lights at a railway crossing. That tells me that some people have become so used to it, they don't even see the lights anymore.
 

EM2

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Frankly, I think that's borderline deluded, but it's clearly the perception you have.

I would add, though, that a number of roads have very poorly marked cycle contraflows and shared-use paths, but I suspect that's not a common feature in your experience.
It's not a perception, it's experience. For example, when walking from Lower Marsh (near Waterloo) to Marble Arch, I counted 84 cyclists. 48 of them committed one or more of the offences I've listed.
When driving along Ruckholt Road in Leyton, there are five sets of traffic lights. I counted 24 cyclists go through one or more red lights, and none who stopped at them.There were three near misses with other vehicles.
Driving from Forest Gate to King's Cross in the dark, the split of cyclists with lights and without is pretty much 50:50.
 

soil

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Because there are a lot more cars than motorcycles and motorcycles than there are bicycles.

This isn't the case, not in central London anyway.

In the City cyclists outnumber motorcyclists 7 to 5.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/area.php?region=London&la=City+of+London

As also in Lambeth
http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/area.php?region=London&la=Lambeth

And Southwark

http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/area.php?region=London&la=Southwark

In Westminster there are equal numbers

http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/area.php?region=London&la=Westminster

In Camden there are 50% more cyclists than motorcyclists

http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/area.php?region=London&la=Camden

In Hammersmith & Fulham and also Kensington & Chelsea the numbers are equal

http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/area.php?region=London&la=Hammersmith+and+Fulham
http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/area.php?region=London&la=Kensington+and+Chelsea

Haringey slightly more motorcyclists

http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/area.php?region=London&la=Haringey



Note that these are 'major roads' and in say Hillingdon include things like the M4 and A40, which are accessible to motorcyclists but not pedal cyclists.
 

stut

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It's not a perception, it's experience. For example, when walking from Lower Marsh (near Waterloo) to Marble Arch, I counted 84 cyclists. 48 of them committed one or more of the offences I've listed.
When driving along Ruckholt Road in Leyton, there are five sets of traffic lights. I counted 24 cyclists go through one or more red lights, and none who stopped at them.There were three near misses with other vehicles.
Driving from Forest Gate to King's Cross in the dark, the split of cyclists with lights and without is pretty much 50:50.

That's odd, because out of the 94 penguins I counted between Farringdon and Holborn, only 23 of them had machetes.
 

jon0844

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It's not excuses, the fact is that everyday, socially acceptable, behaviour by motorists (such as speeding, fiddling with the radio, and any of a million other distractions for car drivers) is more dangerous than any number of bicycles, and making a lot of hot air about bicycles and cyclists is real serious distraction from saving lives on the road.

Okay, I'll concur that I am more likely to be KILLED by a motorist that is doing some of the above (and most recently I'd say the new risk is from motorists that are texting or reading emails/IMs on the move - as is clear from the way they're looking down in their laps for long periods of time, which is way worse than just being on the phone - or even wearing Beats audio-style chunky headphones so they can't hear what's going on around them).

I do however feel I am more likely to be HURT by a cyclist. I never wanted to suggest that cyclists are going around killing pedestrians, but they are hitting and clipping pedestrians (and also the other way around on crossings) and I doubt that unless it's a bad injury, people are going to hospital or seeing their GP. No, they're sporting a nasty bruise or cut, damaged clothing or maybe having had their phone knocked out of their hand etc.

Not life threatening injuries and never likely to be reported, but rather put down to the typical daily life in a big city.

Sure, in rural areas, you see a lot more people riding on pavements. Many councils are gradually making them shared usage anyway, and I have no problem with that. I am not anti-cyclist, or else I'd have to get rid of my own bike. I just get increasingly frustrated when so many people deny there's a problem or seek to hit back with examples of bigger dangers, as if that matters.

In Hatfield, a number of years ago, a woman was hit by a kid on a bike that cycled at speed by the exit of Asda - and took her out. I believe she survived, but not after a long time in hospital (possibly in a coma, but I can't recall all the finer details). The town centre is now a no-cycling area in many places, although you obviously still see the kids riding around ignoring it.

However, generally, there are so many fewer people - especially as most high streets are becoming ghost towns - that it's easier for such cyclists to avoid contact with others.

I think that's why the problem is so great in London, and presumably other cities around the UK. I just wish that more people would go and see for themselves that it's a growing problem (thanks to the bike hire scheme) and the lack of training that should be compulsory if only to stop cyclists dying needlessly by taking big risks (such as undertaking near junctions).

As EM2 mentioned, the number of 'ninjas' going around in dark clothing and no lights at night is also shocking - and as it gets darker around the time workers start on their evening commute home, I am sure we'll hear of more and more nasty accidents. I'd never dream of cycling without lights - any more than I'd get in my car and not put my seat belt on.
 

EM2

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That's odd, because out of the 94 penguins I counted between Farringdon and Holborn, only 23 of them had machetes.
And that's relevant how? You said that my points were perceptions. They aren't perceptions, they are experiences. This is what I have actually seen happen.
So as far as you are concerned, because my experiences don't match your view, they are nonsensical and can be discounted?
 

NHG66

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We're not all students and we don't all ignore red lights or have no lights at night...;)

Maybe not all of you, but every night I drive back from the station along Botley road having completed my shift I see many cyclists without lights, nearly always one of them will ignore the red lights either at the bottom of Frideswide sq or the lights at the junction leading into Osney industrial estate. Do these morons not realise how difficult they are to see at night especially when wearing dark clothing.:roll:

For the record I am a cyclist myself.

And back to the point of this topic, I think it fair to say that the cyclist involved in this incident will not be jumping the red lights again.
 
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