Letter relating to journey on XC trains (now resolved)

[towndrain]

Hello everyone.

I have had a letter advising me of proposed action and asking me to provide any mitigating circumstances for travelling without a ticket.

I often travel to York with work and so I buy a ticket when on the train. Buying on the train works best for me-I have been done this before and the train managers have always politely issued me with a ticket and not once mentioned that I should buy a ticket before boarding. Then one day a train manager on the 18.02 from York, who has issued me tickets on the train in the past, took my details (I should add I had my wallet and asked him for a ticket so I hope he's not suggesting I tried to avoid paying).
I am very keen to avoid a criminal record for the sake of my job and because I had no intention to travel without paying.

I would realy appreciate any input on my best course of action.

Thanks.

 

[miami]

Where did you board the train?
Where did your (lack of) ticket get checked?

I believe you're saying this:

You have a PTE ticket which covers travel between Sheffield and Doncaster
You boarded a train at Doncaster
There are no ticket barriers at Doncaster, but there are ticket machines and/or open ticket offices
This ran non-stop to York (there aren't any stations en-route anyway)
You were asked for a ticket en-route between Doncaster and York

 

[najaB]

Where did you board the train?
Where did your (lack of) ticket get checked?

It's not clear from your post what your journey was. Could you please provide the information requested in this post?

 

[towndrain]

Sorry that was unclear...

I boarded at York and ticket check was between York and Doncaster.

Thanks

 

[Anvil1984]

Where did you board the train?
Where did your (lack of) ticket get checked?

I believe you're saying this:

You have a PTE ticket which covers travel between Sheffield and Doncaster
You boarded a train at Doncaster
There are no ticket barriers at Doncaster, but there are ticket machines and/or open ticket offices
This ran non-stop to York (there aren't any stations en-route anyway)
You were asked for a ticket en-route between Doncaster and York

How I've read it is that he has a South Yorkshire pass but travels from Sheffield to York (he mentions the Doncaster to York "portion of the journey" so it comes across that he comes from elsewhere). He only holds a valid ticket/ pass from Sheffield to Doncaster but then pays for a ticket on board to take him to York,

My take on it is the Train Manager has got fed up of the poster purchasing on board when he should hold a ticket for the whole journey before boarding and has a suspicion that he may intentionally hold a SYPTE pass and hope the TM misses him out on a check or checks him before Doncaster and forgets (this isnt an allegation just thinking what the TM may think)

All you can do is wait for the letter from XC but in the future to buy a ticket before you get on the train as it is a requirement

 

[trentside]

While it may work out best for you purchasing onboard, unfortunately you're in the wrong as it is a requirement to hold a valid ticket for your journey prior to boarding the train where faculties are available to acquire one.

It's seems unusual to me that a Train Manager would go straight to reporting someone like this, which makes me wonder whether the OP has encountered an RPO (they certainly work between Sheffield and York on XC, as I've encountered them) or there's more to this that isn't being told to us. Are you absolutely sure you've never been warned to buy a ticket before boarding prior to this incident? Secondly, have you always left the train at York with a valid ticket on previous journeys?

 

[towndrain]

I have genuinely never been warned or told to buy a ticket before boarding when buying a ticket. It was a normal train manager as I've bought tickets from him before (and he's never indicated this was frowned upon).
I think he was having a drive to issue everyone with a unpaid fare notice as I remember him spending ages with a passsenger a few rows further down and in retrospect I'm pretty sure it was because he was colleting his details also.

 

[sheff1]

Sorry that was unclear...

I boarded at York and ticket check was between York and Doncaster.

Thanks

In the first post you talked about buying a ticket for the Doncaster to York section on the train. Had you already travelled from Doncaster to York earlier that day ?

 

[najaB]

In the first post you talked about buying a ticket for the Doncaster to York section on the train. Had you already travelled from Doncaster to York earlier that day ?

I don't think we have enough information to give any useful advice. Hopefully the OP will return (and/or the mods will release any posts awaiting moderation).

 

[towndrain]

I don't recall if I had made the journey earlier that day-maybe, if so it's possibe I got a single but my journeys to and from York are quite ad hoc and sometimes I stay over in York. That particular day I don't remember.

 

[najaB]

I boarded at York and ticket check was between York and Doncaster.

Exactly what ticket did you hold when you boarded at York?

 

[gray1404]

This really does strike me as odd. The TM was collecting details from another passenger to issue an UPFN and then collected the details of the OP to report them. Are TMs encourages to have drives on collecting details of passenger in order to report them?

It does strike me as odd that the same TM would be fine selling tickets one journey. Then have a problem with it the other. Given the number of passengers TMs see on long distance trains how likely is it that the TM remember the said passenger.
I guess the TOC has to ask if there are mitigating circumstances. For example, you could be a Disabled Persons Railcard holder and therefore allowed to buy on the train and this has simply been overlooked.

 

[bb21]

No ticket by my reckoning as he started his journey in York.

There are a few posts approved with a time delay after much contribution from forum members.

 

[najaB]

No ticket by my reckoning as he started his journey in York.

That's the way I read it as well. So despite all the faff about the Doncaster-Sheffield ticket, the matter at hand boils down to "I boarded at a staffed station without a valid ticket".

 

[miami]

I can't see any mitigating circumstances, but I could potentially see scope for a fare evasion prosecution. Perhaps some old tickets from York that establish that he had bought tickets in the past may swing them to a byelaw offence rather than the more serious fare evasion offence.

 

[najaB]

I can't see any mitigating circumstances, but I could potentially see scope for a fare evasion prosecution.

Indeed, if we look at it a little less charitably: "I boarded at an ungated staffed station while only holding a ticket for the gated destination station."

 

[clagmonster]

Indeed, if we look at it a little less charitably: "I boarded at an ungated staffed station while only holding a ticket for the gated destination station."

Apart from the fact that neither Sheffield nor Doncaster (or any station in South Yorkshire for that matter) is gated and barrier checks at Sheffield and Donny are relatively infrequent. Not that this makes any difference legally, just slightly less potential motive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It does strike me as odd that the same TM would be fine selling tickets one journey. Then have a problem with it the other. Given the number of passengers TMs see on long distance trains how likely is it that the TM remember the said passenger.

The fact that the passenger regularly pays their fare on board for a flow on which there, in my experience, is significant evasion, possibly swung it. We have seen from the guards who post on here that they do remember regular passengers.

 

[najaB]

Apart from the fact that neither Sheffield nor Doncaster...

I thought I remembered there being barriers at Doncaster, my bad.

Edit: Bit of reflection, I was thinking of Peterborough.

 

[sheff1]

So despite all the faff about the Doncaster-Sheffield ticket, the matter at hand boils down to "I boarded at a staffed station without a valid ticket".

And apparently this is something they do regularly. The only relevance of the South Yorkshire ticket is that it would facilitate exit from the station at Doncaster or Sheffield if one of the extremely rare blockades were in place.

 

[miami]

It certainly could look like the old tap out at Marylebone having not bought a ticket scam. Showing evidence of buying tickets on a continuous basis (old tickets, credit cards, expenses claims) surely couldn't harm.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It does strike me as odd that the same TM would be fine selling tickets one journey. Then have a problem with it the other.

Some XC Train Managers are pragmatic, some are strict. It is unlikely it is the same TM.

We have a situation where a passenger boards a train without a valid ticket at a staffed station. The existence of other tickets is irrelevant. I also question how the OP got to York, given how he "cannot remember" how he got to work that morning. I suspect that he's got a bit too used to not seeing TMs on that service and getting away without paying, but that is probably off topic.

The rules clearly state that a passenger should buy all tickets for their journey before getting on at the first station, where ticket selling facilities exist. Heading to York that would be at Sheffield, heading from York that would be at York. In reality, if you buy a ticket Doncaster-York between Sheffield and Doncaster it will be OK, so long as you get off at Doncaster and buy a ticket there if the TM doesn't come through or doesn't sell you the ticket. That will be why some TMs are OK with it.

 

[6Gman]

(I should add I had my card ready and asked him for a ticket so I hope he's not suggesting I tried to avoid paying).
I am very keen to avoid a criminal record for the sake of my job and because I had no intention to travel without paying.

I would realy appreciate any input on my best course of action.

Thanks.

If the Train Manager had not come down the train between York and Doncaster what would you have done on arrival at Sheffield?

 

[towndrain]

I've checked my tickets and I was in York that morning so there was no outward journey. I have kept a lot of my tickets but I'm pretty sure not all of them.


If the conductor hadn't come down I probably wouldn't have bought a ticket on the train that's true. But generally there would be an inspector at some point and I would make every attempt to buy a ticket short of walking up and down the train looking for the conductor (I realise this is no excuse). I'm not looking to avoid a substantial fine, I'm just worried that if I get a criminal record I'm pretty sure I'll lose my livelihood and probably my house which would mean moving my kids out of school etc so I'm pretty down about it.

The date for submission of mitigating circumstances passed today so it's too late for a letter explaining things, though I'm assuming this wouldn't have helped my case anyway?

 

[Greenback]

I agree with paulweaver in that I can't see any mitigation here. The ticket between Sheffield and Doncaster aren't relevant, except that they would allow you to exit the station at Doncaster which doesn't work in your favour, and everything in the opening post here seems to refer to a journey in the opposite direction.

In my opinion, the TOC would be justified in taking the view that you deliberately did not buy a ticket before boarding the train in York in the hope that no one would ask you to buy one on board. TOC's are well aware of the existence of those who will only pay when challenged, and hope they don't have to. They could conceivably want to make an example of any they might think have been caught out by vigilant on board staff.

 

[najaB]

If the conductor hadn't come down I wouldn't have bought a ticket that's true.

That's the conclusion that XC have come to as well. And they will be wondering how often you do this - many 'pay when challenged' passengers might buy a ticket one journey in ten.

I'm not looking to avoid a substantial fine, I'm just worried that if I get a criminal record I'm pretty sure I'll lose my livelihood and probably my house which would mean moving my kids out of school etc so I'm pretty down about it.

All is not lost, it's still possible to avoid court, and even if it does go to court most employers are understanding if you tell them upfront what had happened. The conviction only stays on your visible record for 12 months so it's not going to ruin your life forever.

The date for submission of mitigating circumstances passed today so it's too late for a letter explaining things, though I'm assuming this wouldn't have helped my case anyway?

It's *never* too late to speak with XC's prosecutors.

 

[robbeech]

There are 8 trains (including a couple of a change at Wakefield making it a considerably longer journey) that leave York in a morning before an off peak ticket would be valid. I'm assuming you were on one of these and always intended to be else you'd have bought the £22.50 off peak return (return within 1 month) from Doncaster to York the previous day when you went up there. You did buy a ticket for your outbound journey i assume?

If this issue with with XC, then it really limits it to the 0727 or 0826 services i guess. Anything later than that and a valid off peak return would have been acceptable and you'd have been able to purchase this the day before.

So all in all, i think you're going to have to deal with what they throw at you. But as others have said it is never too late to get in touch.

 

[6Gman]

If the conductor hadn't come down I wouldn't have bought a ticket that's true.

I rest my case. Or - to be more accurate - at this point the prosecution rests its case.

 

[towndrain]

Hi everyone. Just thought I'd update on my experience of getting threat of a summons after boarding without a ticket. Basically boarded at York without a ticket with the intention of buying on the train. When I asked for the ticket the inspetor refused and took my details. I took a bit of issue with the errors in their subsequent correspondance which alleged I was asked to produce a ticket by a RPI which wasn't true as I asked to purchase one in good faith from the conductor; something I had done and seen many people do on numerous occasions.
Anyway, they settled for about £70 but maintained I could have been taken to court for fare evasion-which I'm sure I will be if I find myself in a similar position again.
I am happy for such a good outcome but I do think the rail companies are taking some liberties with their inconsitancy. I really wish one of the guards had warned me that I should always buy a ticket at the station or this was a possibility but instead they happily sold me a ticket as if this was quite acceptable. I mean how hard would it be to just mention it to everyone when they issue a ticket? I know people on here wil assume it's common knowledge but it really isn't to those outside the industry. Also, I have subsequently taken note of all the signs at the station and they just say if you board without a ticket you may receive a fine, but no mention of court/criminal record.

As an aside, last week I made a journey and bought my tickets on trainline and collected at the station machine. After letting all the tickets print I noticed there was only one ticket I waited another 30 seonds or so and still nothing so I knelt down and looked up into the machine to see my ticket poking out the end of the dispenser. I tried to get my hand in but couldn't because of the plastic flap thingy. It took me about 5 minutes of awkward poking with a pen 'til I dislodged it. If I hadn't noticed I would have been screwed and the person after me would have got my ticket. I mention this as I saw a thread where that seemed to happen to another poor rail customer who lost a challenge in court because the expert said the machine definitely printed the ticket. I would argue it probably did, but did it fall out the end of the machine?!! They have my sympathy!

Towndrain

 

[najaB]

Also, I have subsequently taken note of all the signs at the station and they just say if you board without a ticket you may receive a fine, but no mention of court/criminal record.

Could you take a picture of those posters, please? All the ones I've seen say a fine and criminal record are possible. It would be interesting to see which TOC isn't saying the same.

 

[towndrain]

I don't travel by train as much these days but I will next time I'm at the station.
I had a really good lok and there wasn't a sign saying anything about the criminal aspect just a poster saying you MAY receive a fine.