Leeds to Carlisle via Settle: Theoretical minimum?

[BogiePicker]

What is the fastest theoretical timing for Leeds to Carlisle via Settle?

Assumptions:

- I've seen it proposed that the linespeed be enhanced to 90 mph. I don't know if it is possible to go any faster. But maximum realistic upgrades only, no new-build sections.
- Fully electrified.
- Let's have a really pared-back call of stops as well. So: Skipton & Settle only!

Have fun!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Ballpark 113 miles for Leeds to Carlisle, therefore a sub two hour journey time might well be possible at present.

What's the fastest now? Maybe two hours 26 minutes on a Sunday with, I believe, eight intermediate station calls?

 

[InkyScrolls]

Having thought about this before, if one assumes 'realistic upgrades' only:-

• Station calls at Shipley, Skipton, Settle and Appleby
• No new electrification
• Speed increased to 65 mph Skipton to Hellifield
• Speed increased to 75 mph Hellifield to Petteril Bridge Jct.

You could, with the above, cut the time down to 1 hrs 52 mins, not including allowances. I don't believe any faster time is 'realistic', as the line speed will never be raised to 90 mph.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Having thought about this before, if one assumes 'realistic upgrades' only:-

• Station calls at Shipley, Skipton, Settle and Appleby
• No new electrification
• Speed increased to 65 mph Skipton to Hellifield
• Speed increased to 75 mph Hellifield to Petteril Bridge Jct.

You could, with the above, cut the time down to 1 hrs 52 mins, not including allowances. I don't believe any faster time is 'realistic', as the line speed will never be raised to 90 mph.

Slightly off topic but surely a good use for an upgraded S&C line would be to carry more freight?

 

[fishwomp]

Current fastest is: 2h29 - southbound (journeys are slower northbound). 13:36 ex Carlisle is in Leeds at 16:05.

Back in 1964 timetable - "The Thames Clyde Express" (Glasgow St Enoch - London St Pancras) was scheduled 11:32 ex Carlisle, arriving Leeds at 13:39 - non-stop. That's a journey of 2h07 mins.

A limited stops "The Waverley" (Edinburgh-St Pancras) with stops at Appleby, Settle, Hellifield, Gargrave, Skipton would do it in 2h17.

Progress eh?

 

[hexagon789]

Current fastest is: 2h29 - southbound (journeys are slower northbound). 13:36 ex Carlisle is in Leeds at 16:05.

Back in 1964 timetable - "The Thames Clyde Express" (Glasgow St Enoch - London St Pancras) was scheduled 11:32 ex Carlisle, arriving Leeds at 13:39 - non-stop. That's a journey of 2h07 mins.

A limited stops "The Waverley" (Edinburgh-St Pancras) with stops at Appleby, Settle, Hellifield, Gargrave, Skipton would do it in 2h17.

Progress eh?

Wasn't linespeed higher back then though?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Current fastest is: 2h29 - southbound (journeys are slower northbound). 13:36 ex Carlisle is in Leeds at 16:05.

See post #2 (above). 1116 departure from Leeds (SuO) is scheduled to arrive in Carlisle at 1342. Which is 2h26. And it's a journey in a Northbound direction! Just saying!

 

[D6130]

Wasn't linespeed higher back then though?

IIRC, 75 Carlisle-Newbiggin, 30 Newbiggin-Long Marton, 80 Long Marton-Hellifield, 65 Hellifield-Skipton & 75 Skipton-Leeds. Currently 60 Carlisle-Skipton, 90 Skipton-Apperley Junction & 80 Apperley Junction-Leeds. Open to correction if anyone has the relevant Sectional Appendices to hand....my copies are in a box over a thousand miles away!

 

[Gaelan]

Using current running times for a class 150/155/156 in BPLAN gets us 2h4m30s, including slowing down/speeding up for station stops at Skipton and Settle but not dwell times.

 

[D6130]

Using current running times for a class 150/155/156 in BPLAN gets us 2h4m30s, including slowing down/speeding up for station stops at Skipton and Settle but not dwell times.

All good in theory....but the present-day intensive and frequent all stations EMU services South of Skipton required very slow schedules with lots of pathing time for Carlisle and Lancaster/Morecambe services between Skipton and Leeds.

 

[hexagon789]

IIRC, 75 Carlisle-Newbiggin, 30 Newbiggin-Long Marton, 80 Long Marton-Hellifield, 65 Hellifield-Skipton & 75 Skipton-Leeds. Currently 60 Carlisle-Skipton, 90 Skipton-Apperley Junction & 80 Apperley Junction-Leeds. Open to correction if anyone has the relevant Sectional Appendices to hand....my copies are in a box over a thousand miles away!

Thank you, I had a feeling it used to be up to 80 in places Carlisle - Skipton.

 

[fishwomp]

IIRC, 75 Carlisle-Newbiggin, 30 Newbiggin-Long Marton, 80 Long Marton-Hellifield, 65 Hellifield-Skipton & 75 Skipton-Leeds. Currently 60 Carlisle-Skipton, 90 Skipton-Apperley Junction & 80 Apperley Junction-Leeds. Open to correction if anyone has the relevant Sectional Appendices to hand....my copies are in a box over a thousand miles away!

The 30mph over Ribblehead doesn't help current timings.. ~1.25 miles of 30 mph - and the northbound also has 15mph to when joining the single track. Otherwise, yes, overwhelmingly a 60mph railway.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The 30mph over Ribblehead doesn't help current timings.. ~1.25 miles of 30 mph - and the northbound also has 15mph to when joining the single track. Otherwise, yes, overwhelmingly a 60mph railway.

There are no 15 mph sections.

 

[fishwomp]

There are no 15 mph sections.

You're quite right - I misread the sectional appendix, there is the yard at Ribblehead and that has 15 mph limit.

 

[The Planner]

Slightly off topic but surely a good use for an upgraded S&C line would be to carry more freight?

Not unless its guaged cleared to W10 it won't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2024 ==

Taking a quick look, the quickest non stop Carlisle to Skipton can done is 96 minutes.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Current fastest is: 2h29 - southbound (journeys are slower northbound). 13:36 ex Carlisle is in Leeds at 16:05.

Back in 1964 timetable - "The Thames Clyde Express" (Glasgow St Enoch - London St Pancras) was scheduled 11:32 ex Carlisle, arriving Leeds at 13:39 - non-stop. That's a journey of 2h07 mins.

A limited stops "The Waverley" (Edinburgh-St Pancras) with stops at Appleby, Settle, Hellifield, Gargrave, Skipton would do it in 2h17.

Very interesting comparing those timings.

Although the first question has to be: Were these timed for Cl 45 haulage? I'm pretty sure that by '64 both trains would have usually had a Cl 45 at the front, but maybe they kept steam timings because of possible loco shortages for London and NE-SW services.

However, I kind of feel these are tighter timings than steam. But whether diesel or steam, how on earth did the Waverley manage to achieve all those stops (five, including GARGRAVE!! What an honour to have a named express stopping there!) with just 10 minutes more running time? It might have been a carriage (or two?) fewer than the the TC, but it was still carrying a restaurant or buffet car. Yet even if two carriages ighter than the TC formation, it doesn't allow for five additional stops in just 10 minutes surely?

 

[urbophile]

Are you sure the Waverley stopped at Gargrave? Having lived there as a child I can't remember any such thing and our family would certainly have welcomed a through journey to London.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Not unless its guaged cleared to W10 it won't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 May 2024 ==

Taking a quick look, the quickest non stop Carlisle to Skipton can done is 96 minutes.

Fair enough, but surely if the line is electrified and the linespeed is increased then gauge enhancement works could be done as well?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Fair enough, but surely if the line is electrified and the linespeed is increased then gauge enhancement works could be done as well?

Oh sure ... If is a little word with a big impact though.

Unless there is a dramatic increase in demand for rail freight twixt Scotland and England, I think electrification of the S&C is about as (un)likely as reopening Harrogate to Northallerton in the next two decades.

 

[The Planner]

Fair enough, but surely if the line is electrified and the linespeed is increased then gauge enhancement works could be done as well?

They could, but considering that there are no plans to wire it, and any linespeed works would be just to get it up to 75mph, anything else is really pie in the sky.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Fair enough, but surely if the line is electrified and the linespeed is increased then gauge enhancement works could be done as well?

More chance of the Little North Western reopening!

 

[30907]

Are you sure the Waverley stopped at Gargrave? Having lived there as a child I can't remember any such thing and our family would certainly have welcomed a through journey to London.

It isn't shown to stop in 1963 or 65, and there was a Morecambe just ahead of it that did in the up direction.

 

[fishwomp]

It isn't shown to stop in 1963 or 65, and there was a Morecambe just ahead of it that did in the up direction.

You're right- the table was a bit hard to read on my device - here it is.

I don't know if it was a peak or steam - a lot of photos were of peaks that year so I assume it was diesel, I also don't know how many coaches it was hauling.

 

[Grumpy]

Wasn't linespeed higher back then though?

I had a relative, a former Holbeck driver, who was adamant he had 100mph out of a speedometer-fitted Jubilee on a down hill section on this line.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I had a relative, a former Holbeck driver, who was adamant he had 100mph out of a speedometer-fitted Jubilee on a down hill section on this line.

He may well have done but the limit has never been that high!

 

[D6130]

I had a relative, a former Holbeck driver, who was adamant he had 100mph out of a speedometer-fitted Jubilee on a down hill section on this line.

Sounds like an old hand's yarn after four pints in the railway club!

 

[jfollows]

1963 1M82 “Waverley” was D350 from Carlisle, 1M86 “Thames-Clyde” also D350.
[Timetable starting 9/9/63]

 

[D6130]

1963 1M82 “Waverley” was D350 from Carlisle, 1M86 “Thames-Clyde” also D350.
[Timetable starting 9/9/63]

I.e. timed for load 10.

 

[fishwomp]

1963 1M82 “Waverley” was D350 from Carlisle, 1M86 “Thames-Clyde” also D350.
[Timetable starting 9/9/63]

I.e. timed for load 10.

Had me scratching my head there for a while: I thought it was a class 40 sighting (no. 150)... and was wondering how you could say there were 10 coaches from that information!

D350 would only be 8 x mk V carriages (CAF) (43 tonne each) today.

 

[jfollows]

Had me scratching my head there for a while: I thought it was a class 40 sighting (no. 150)... and was wondering how you could say there were 10 coaches from that information!

D350 would only be 8 x mk V carriages (CAF) (43 tonne each) today.

Yes, it shows a timing load, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thames-clyde-express-in-the-1970s.264956/#post-6697052 for example, so is indicative and approximate and not absolute. These two trains were D420 and D400 as far as Carlisle, for example, and that doesn't mean that carriages were detached at Carlisle. Nominally a passenger coach weighed 35 tonnes and so D350 implied a timing load based on 10 coaches with the appropriate type of locomotive and later working timetables included conversion tables showing the maximum weights for other locomotive classes to be able to maintain the timings.

However in this case I simply wanted to note that both services were diesel-hauled - the absence of a timing load would have implied steam.