Leeds Bradford Airport rail link

[deltic08]

dunnow.

The original plan was convert Leeds-Horsforth to tram operation with dc overheads as far as Horsforth and up the hill to the airport. This was thwarted by Leeds not getting go ahead for city tram network and objections from users on the rest of the Harrogate Loop mixing trams with heavy rail on the same lines. Tram trains were seen off by the same method.

The latest is install 25kv to Horforth and up the hill to the airport with a 15 minute interval all stations service now resignalling is complete. There are enough electric units for this service. Leeds-Harrogate trains could then run Leeds-Horsforth nonstop reducing overall journey time and overcrowding between Leeds and Horsforth on Harrogate trains.

Not sure how things stand now but from the new timetable trains are increased to every 15 minutes between Leeds and Horsforth on Sundays.

 

[edwin_m]

Hardly a fair point given that it only has a parliamentary service! Very much chicken and egg, I think.

Tees-side airport station has a Parliamentary service because (1) it's nowhere near the airport terminal, or anywhere much else for that matter, and (2) the airport only gets a handful of passenger flights a day anyway.

LBIA is somewhat better used than that, but building a rail link to it would be much more difficult than at Manchester where there are far more passengers.

If you look at the detail of this report it appears that the tram-train option was discarded largely on the grounds of concern about its practicality. The primary rail option tested appears to require a change at Horsforth, which isn't particularly attractive on a short journey from Leeds.

So possibly if the Rotherham pilot proves successful the tram-train option would be assessed as more practical, and it would also be more attractive as it could allow a through service from Leeds. It might also reduce the scheme cost because it can climb steeper gradients than heavy rail and cross roads on the flat (the airport is up a fairly steep hill from the Harrogate line). However I think the usage of the airport would still have to go up significantly to make any rail link viable.

 

[bluenoxid]

I'm interested to note no comments on the trolley bus being proposed. This could offer an interesting alternative although I doubt it would offer much in the way of journey time improvements.

Finally, would a north facing junction on the Wharfedale not be potentially desirable, with a second stop constructed near Otley and Ilkley to Leeds trains also run via the new route. It gives everyone benefits and potentially (although probably unpopular with some) creation of Bradford to Leeds via LBIA service using the new triangle. Capacity could be added to the network by removing Leeds to Ilkley trains off the Aire Valley line and potentially terminating some trains at Guiseley.

You would probably end up with

Leeds - LBIA - Ilkley - Guiseley - Leeds
Leeds - LBIA - Guiseley - Ilkley - LBIA - Leeds
Bradford to Leeds via Guiseley and LBIA

 

[Stats]

Finally, would a north facing junction on the Wharfedale not be potentially desirable, with a second stop constructed near Otley and Ilkley to Leeds trains also run via the new route. It gives everyone benefits and potentially (although probably unpopular with some) creation of Bradford to Leeds via LBIA service using the new triangle. Capacity could be added to the network by removing Leeds to Ilkley trains off the Aire Valley line and potentially terminating some trains at Guiseley.

You would probably end up with

Leeds - LBIA - Ilkley - Guiseley - Leeds
Leeds - LBIA - Guiseley - Ilkley - LBIA - Leeds
Bradford to Leeds via Guiseley and LBIA

The option the report recommends to be taken forward for further assessment is a rail link between Guiseley and Horsforth with through services from Bradford and Leeds.

 

[edwin_m]

The option the report recommends to be taken forward for further assessment is a rail link between Guiseley and Horsforth with through services from Bradford and Leeds.

That's described as a long-term option - the shorter term rail option is as I posted above.

 

[WestRiding]

Regarding Tram Train trials in Sheffield, dont hold your breath! No work started, none planned to start, and it has been put back to an indefinate date. Shambles.

 

[Haydn1971]

I was under the impression that the Tram-Train units had been selected/ordered ?

 

[Grumpy]

It’s another voluminous report that has served its purpose i.e. consultants have made some money and politicians looked as though they’re doing something, but it’s really useless.

Given that the busiest time for airport users is before 7am i.e. when the roads are relatively clear, spending anything to improve the lot of the airport traveller should be well down the priority list.

The reality is that roads in the Menston-Guiseley-Rawdon-Horsforth sector are almost gridlocked for much of the day. Despite this the hapless local authorties continue to give planning permission for more houses but spend nothing on improving the transport infrastructure and so the situation gets worse. Where they do something they invariably mess things up e.g. recent changes to the road layout in Otley that were a complete shambles and had to be hurriedly reversed.

What’s needed is an overall review of future transport needs in the area, not just for the airport. How do you get people from Otley, Bramhope, Rawdon, Yeadon etc. out of their cars? To say nothing of the people who could use the existing stations but won’t because there’s nowhere to park-the existing station car parks are wholly inadequate.

Thus we need more stations on existing lines (e.g. White Cross with a big car park and Guiseley retail park) and more lines( eg reinstate Menston-Otley). If you want to put a link in from the Horsforth line make sure it’s done to focus on attracting Bramhope and Yeadon passengers. The airport’s a side show.

 

[deltic08]

I'm interested to note no comments on the trolley bus being proposed. This could offer an interesting alternative although I doubt it would offer much in the way of journey time improvements.

Finally, would a north facing junction on the Wharfedale not be potentially desirable, with a second stop constructed near Otley and Ilkley to Leeds trains also run via the new route. It gives everyone benefits and potentially (although probably unpopular with some) creation of Bradford to Leeds via LBIA service using the new triangle. Capacity could be added to the network by removing Leeds to Ilkley trains off the Aire Valley line and potentially terminating some trains at Guiseley.

You would probably end up with

Leeds - LBIA - Ilkley - Guiseley - Leeds
Leeds - LBIA - Guiseley - Ilkley - LBIA - Leeds
Bradford to Leeds via Guiseley and LBIA

The ideal would be a line connecting Guiseley with Horsforth via the airport if they were all at the same altitude. The problem is that the airport is 450 feet higher than Guiseley. A station near Otley is not possible due to the escarpment of Otley Chevin again rising 500 feet above Otley.

Terminating trains at Guiseley is not an option for those living in the Wharfe Valley. The other option is reinstate the line through Otley and Pool to Arthington and use the Harrogate line.

 

[WestRiding]

I was under the impression that the Tram-Train units had been selected/ordered ?

they have. but worst case, stagecoach will just get them to use as trams.

http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk...ield-to-rotherham-tram-train-scheme-1-6956827

 

[Stats]

That's described as a long-term option - the shorter term rail option is as I posted above.

It didn't recommend a shorter term rail option to be taken forward. The two options it recommends is:
Short/Medium Term - A65 to Leeds Bradford International Airport Link Road (40mph) with improved bus services to Leeds and Bradford
and
Long Term - Heavy Rail (Guiseley – LBIA – Horsforth)

 

[30907]

The ideal would be a line connecting Guiseley with Horsforth via the airport if they were all at the same altitude. The problem is that the airport is 450 feet higher than Guiseley. A station near Otley is not possible due to the escarpment of Otley Chevin again rising 500 feet above Otley.

A quick estimate from the map suggests that Horsforth is about 110m asl, Guiseley 130, and LBA is on the 200m contour. This would mean a steady 1 in 50 from Horsforth which shouldn't be a major problem with electrification, and a significantly less steep climb from Guiseley, as the suggested route loops round the edge of the built up area.

I agree about Otley though - and with Grumpy's point about needing to encourage modal shift.

 

[quantinghome]

A quick estimate from the map suggests that Horsforth is about 110m asl, Guiseley 130, and LBA is on the 200m contour. This would mean a steady 1 in 50 from Horsforth which shouldn't be a major problem with electrification, and a significantly less steep climb from Guiseley, as the suggested route loops round the edge of the built up area.

I agree about Otley though - and with Grumpy's point about needing to encourage modal shift.

The route from Guiseley appears to have taken advantage of a demolished factory site which formed a gap between housing. Unfortunately that gap has been filled by large housing developments in the past couple of years. This will force the route further North and require deeper cuttings.

I also agree with grumpy. Any link like this would have more passengers using it for local journeys than for the airport. In that case, reopening the old otley line would make more sense.

 

[deltic08]

A quick estimate from the map suggests that Horsforth is about 110m asl, Guiseley 130, and LBA is on the 200m contour. This would mean a steady 1 in 50 from Horsforth which shouldn't be a major problem with electrification, and a significantly less steep climb from Guiseley, as the suggested route loops round the edge of the built up area.

I agree about Otley though - and with Grumpy's point about needing to encourage modal shift.

My mistake. As someone who helped remove and identify victims of the December 1974 air crash at LBA, the airport altitude of 643 feet has always stuck in my head being the highest in the UK. I just miscalculated the altitude of Guiseley being lower than it is.

 

[Grumpy]

If the airport altitude is only 643ft then we are in real trouble as the seas must have risen recently.

I don’t really see the point of extending a railway from the Airport to Guiseley. It would be costly for reasons already mentioned and the benefits would be relatively small. Presumably the aim would be to give a service to the airport from points between Guiseley and Ilkley. However this is a relatively easy road journey and most locals, and taxis, will use a relatively uncongested route. It has been suggested it would allow a Leeds-Airport-Ilkley railway service but what’s the point as there’s already a perfectly good railway service Leeds-Ilkley? I’m not saying there would be no benefits but these would be small compared to the cost.

 

[deltic08]

If the airport altitude is only 643ft then we are in real trouble as the seas must have risen recently.

I don’t really see the point of extending a railway from the Airport to Guiseley. It would be costly for reasons already mentioned and the benefits would be relatively small. Presumably the aim would be to give a service to the airport from points between Guiseley and Ilkley. However this is a relatively easy road journey and most locals, and taxis, will use a relatively uncongested route. It has been suggested it would allow a Leeds-Airport-Ilkley railway service but what’s the point as there’s already a perfectly good railway service Leeds-Ilkley? I’m not saying there would be no benefits but these would be small compared to the cost.

Yes, outside the tsunami season it is 683 feet making it even harder to reach by rail.

 

[Starmill]

Not sure how things stand now but from the new timetable trains are increased to every 15 minutes between Leeds and Horsforth on Sundays.

Can I just point out that trains never run every 15 mins to Horsforth. What is happening from the new timetable is 1 train per hour will run Leeds - Horsforth and back. This is in addition to the existing hourly service to York. The first of these trains departs Leeds at 0922, which is half an hour earlier than the first train on this line was anyway. Note that this also means the first Horsforth - Leeds is at 0944, rather than 1014 as at present, which is good and gives a better first arrival at Leeds from these three stations.

The last additional train leaves Leeds at 1722, following which the service goes back to hourly.

 

[edwin_m]

A link to Guiseley would allow Bradford-Airport services.

 

[IanD]

A link to Guiseley would allow Bradford-Airport services.

That's not going to happen then. West Yorkshire rail policy is all about servicing the requirements of people in or traveling to Leeds.

 

[deltic08]

Can I just point out that trains never run every 15 mins to Horsforth. What is happening from the new timetable is 1 train per hour will run Leeds - Horsforth and back. This is in addition to the existing hourly service to York. The first of these trains departs Leeds at 0922, which is half an hour earlier than the first train on this line was anyway. Note that this also means the first Horsforth - Leeds is at 0944, rather than 1014 as at present, which is good and gives a better first arrival at Leeds from these three stations.

The last additional train leaves Leeds at 1722, following which the service goes back to hourly.

I was at the meeting in Harrogate where Northern announced doubling
of the service to Horsforth on Sundays. I forgot it was only hourly on a Sunday.

 

[Grumpy]

That's not going to happen then. West Yorkshire rail policy is all about servicing the requirements of people in or traveling to Leeds.

I think that’s a little unfair. The reality is that Leeds is where most people want to go. Bradford’s basically a dump.

Bradford’s had a fair crack from the PTE-or whatever it’s now called. It has subsidised local rail services with 30 minute frequencies or better on most routes. The PTE sponsored the electrification of the lines out of Forster Square and these now run with modern air conditioned EMU’s.

New stations have been built in recent years at Frizinghall, Saltaire, Crossflatts, Steeton, and there has been considerable investment at Shipley. A further new station is currently being built at Apperley Bridge, with Low Moor approved to follow. All these are in the Bradford MDC area.

There cant be many local authorities received more.

If only they’d built the cross Bradford link.

 

[Oswyntail]

I think that’s a little unfair. The reality is that Leeds is where most people want to go. Bradford’s basically a dump. ....

Possibly because all the money in the area has been sucked out into redeveloping Leeds - and a fat lot of good that has done

The PTE sponsored the electrification of the lines out of Forster Square and these now run with modern air conditioned EMU’s.

Correct - though the PTE would have looked a tad vindictive if it had ignored the Shipley-Bradford stretch. It was hardly the main thrust of the electrification

New stations have been built in recent years at Frizinghall, Saltaire, Crossflatts, Steeton, a....

"Recent" is apparently in geological terms, the dates being 1987, 1984, 1982, and 1990 respectively.

 

[quantinghome]

Possibly because all the money in the area has been sucked out into redeveloping Leeds - and a fat lot of good that has done

Really? How? Does Bradford Council tax get 'sucked' over to Leeds? Does Leeds impose some sort of sales tax on Bradford? Is there some clandestine bank account fraud going on?

Seriously though, commercial developers may have prioritised Leeds over Bradford (for understandable reasons). Ultimately, Bradford has failed (as yet) to redevelop its economy following the failure of the wool industry. Leeds, on the other hand, has succeeded in most part. This is not beggar thy neighbour.

Correct - though the PTE would have looked a tad vindictive if it had ignored the Shipley-Bradford stretch. It was hardly the main thrust of the electrification
"Recent" is apparently in geological terms, the dates being 1987, 1984, 1982, and 1990 respectively.

The fact is that Bradford FS receives the same frequency of services from Airedale and Wharfedale as Leeds and the same quality of trains.

Bradford has had far more reopenings than Leeds. In fact, I believe the only station that's been opened in Leeds post-Beeching is Burley. The dates quoted are more a sign of the woefully poor record of station openings post-privatisation, but that's another story.

The only significant line to reopen in West Yorks has been through Brighouse. This was to connect Halifax and Huddersfield - it didn't really help Leeds at all.

I can't think of any developments in rail services over the past decades that have benefitted Leeds but not other parts of West Yorkshire.

 

[IanD]

I think that’s a little unfair. The reality is that Leeds is where most people want to go. Bradford’s basically a dump.

Bradford’s had a fair crack from the PTE-or whatever it’s now called. It has subsidised local rail services with 30 minute frequencies or better on most routes. The PTE sponsored the electrification of the lines out of Forster Square and these now run with modern air conditioned EMU’s.

New stations have been built in recent years at Frizinghall, Saltaire, Crossflatts, Steeton, and there has been considerable investment at Shipley. A further new station is currently being built at Apperley Bridge, with Low Moor approved to follow. All these are in the Bradford MDC area.

There cant be many local authorities received more.

If only they’d built the cross Bradford link.

If I understand it correctly, they're building a new station at Apperley Bridge with trains calling there serving Bradford in only one direction - so another example of Leeds passengers taking priority over Bradford.

 

[Grumpy]

If I understand it correctly, they're building a new station at Apperley Bridge with trains calling there serving Bradford in only one direction - so another example of Leeds passengers taking priority over Bradford.

Perhaps you don't understand it correctly. Can you point us to any official source for this speculation?

 

[Oswyntail]

...I can't think of any developments in rail services over the past decades that have benefitted Leeds but not other parts of West Yorkshire.

How about the electrification that effectively cut Bradford off from the Inter-City network?
And what do you mean by "for understandable reasons"?

 

[IanD]

If I understand it correctly, they're building a new station at Apperley Bridge with trains calling there serving Bradford in only one direction - so another example of Leeds passengers taking priority over Bradford.

Perhaps you don't understand it correctly. Can you point us to any official source for this speculation?

Just what I read in the thread on the subject http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92535&highlight=apperley&page=4

Could be wrong. Don't give a toss really.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I can't think of any developments in rail services over the past decades that have benefitted Leeds but not other parts of West Yorkshire.

Leeds will be served by HS2 & HS3. Bradford will not and there will be precious little connectivity or through running.

Currently there are very regular Leeds to London trains taking about 2 hrs. The few Bradford - London trains take 100 mins just to reach Doncaster.

No through services from Bradford to other major cities like Sheffield, Birmingham or Liverpool.

Bradford gets nothing to anywhere apart from slow stopping cattle trucks.

In fact Bradford - Huddersfield trains hang about for 10 mins at Halifax.

Re-opening of intermediate stations is irrelevant. Most are poorly sited and all they do is slow down longer distance trains.

 

[IanD]

In fact, I believe the only station that's been opened in Leeds post-Beeching is Burley.

Cottingley. East Garforth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bramley. New Pudsey.

 

[matacaster]

I think you will find that Bradford is almost entirely the author of its own downfall.

The opportunity was there in the 1960's and in the last few years to have a cross-bradford rail link. Did bradford council support it -NO.

Bradford council of all politcial flavours has for the last 50 years been a complete self-serving disgrace. It is has been led by a succession of useless incompetents.

Bradford is probably getting MORE than its politicans deserve. It could all have been so much better had they combined their brain cells, rather than relyiny on single-digit IQ's. [there are endless grandiose failed schemes in Bradford]