Leeds Bradford Airport rail link

[61653 HTAFC]

At least flights from LBA use less fuel to get to cruising altitude, surely...?

 

[47802]

It always amazes me when traveling to Krakow, Poland, how a country like Poland can have the political will, and forward thinking to have a rail link every half hour to the city centre, yet Great Britains LBA dumps you on the top of a hill in the middle of no-where, and you are left with a car park, or scummy bus to get to the city centre. If anything, it should be Eastern Europe that has the scummy bus link, not the United Kingdom. Same to be said of Doncaster Airport. People do not want buses after flying half way around the world. Cheapest option first...... Like Leeds none-existant trams.

While I agree Leeds Bradford is overdue for a rail link, I think we should also remember Leeds does have a good rail link to Manchester Airport, and for a number of destinations it makes more sense to go from Manchester than Leeds Bradford. Like it or not Manchester is really the primary Airport for the north of England. I live on the south side of Bradford and I have never flown from Leeds Bradford, always from Manchester, that's not meant to be slight against Leeds Bradford by any means, but the destinations I have mainly flown to are not really available from Leeds Bradford, OK possibly you get a connection from Leeds Bradford, but on the other hand if you can get a direct flight to your destination with a slightly longer journey to the airport that makes more sense to me, and particularly as I live near the M62.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If I had to go somewhere by plane then I would use LBIA as its the nearest or in some cases Gatwick. Rest of the time it would be via Dover.

 

[Bald Rick]

It always amazes me when traveling to Krakow, Poland, how a country like Poland can have the political will, and forward thinking to have a rail link every half hour to the city centre, yet Great Britains LBA dumps you on the top of a hill in the middle of no-where, and you are left with a car park, or scummy bus to get to the city centre. If anything, it should be Eastern Europe that has the scummy bus link, not the United Kingdom. Same to be said of Doncaster Airport. People do not want buses after flying half way around the world. Cheapest option first...... Like Leeds none-existant trams.

I invite you to make your way from Stockholm Vasteras airport to Central Stockholm by public transport...

 

[47802]

I invite you to make your way from Stockholm Vasteras airport to Central Stockholm by public transport...

Yeh but the main Airport is Arlanda which has a frequent train service to the centre of Stockholm.

I've been to Ostrava Airport as well which is the 3rd biggest city in the Czech Republic and that doesn't have a train link either, but then the Airport is not as busy as Leeds Bradford, or the city as big as the Leeds Bradford in terms of population.

 

[deltic08]

At least flights from LBA use less fuel to get to cruising altitude, surely...?

Nope. 600 feet is neither here nor there in climbing fuel. If anything more fuel would be used accelerating to take-off speed from a standstill at a slightly higher altitude as air is less dense.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yeh but the main Airport is Arlanda which has a frequent train service to the centre of Stockholm

Indeed, and the main airport in the north of England is Manchester, which has a frequent train service to the centre of Leeds.

Airports with rail links are very much the minority. Not even Washington Dulles, the main international airport serving the capital of the richest country in the world, has one (yet).

 

[deltic08]

While I agree Leeds Bradford is overdue for a rail link, I think we should also remember Leeds does have a good rail link to Manchester Airport, and for a number of destinations it makes more sense to go from Manchester than Leeds Bradford. Like it or not Manchester is really the primary Airport for the north of England. I live on the south side of Bradford and I have never flown from Leeds Bradford, always from Manchester, that's not meant to be slight against Leeds Bradford by any means, but the destinations I have mainly flown to are not really available from Leeds Bradford, OK possibly you get a connection from Leeds Bradford, but on the other hand if you can get a direct flight to your destination with a slightly longer journey to the airport that makes more sense to me, and particularly as I live near the M62.

If everybody in Yorkshire used Manchester airport then LBA would close as it nearly did before Jet2 arrived. Having said that LBA is not user friendly. It costs just to set down and pick up and the airport Board DO NOT want a railway as do local taxi drivers.

I have just booked a return flight to Cyprus in November and the cheapest flights were Luton, Gatwick and East Midlands.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This has been discussed before (somewhere). A quick look at Google map or Earth makes this a 64m climb in 2000m approx. This works out at 1 in 30 or 3.3%. Not really gentle, perhaps requiring underground work?

Gradient from Horsforth station to the east end of the main runway would be 1 in 40 something but ground from there to the terminal building rises sharply. From here the railway would have to be underground.

 

[47802]

Indeed, and the main airport in the north of England is Manchester, which has a frequent train service to the centre of Leeds.

Airports with rail links are very much the minority. Not even Washington Dulles, the main international airport serving the capital of the richest country in the world, has one (yet).

Orlando doesn't either, but then the USA isn't exactly on the cutting edge of Rail Travel so its probably not a good comparision, although they do seem to be slowly coming back to rail, they have recently started a commuter service in Orlando, maybe one day that will get to the airport.

 

[HSTEd]

How about forgetting Leeds airport and building a high speed line to Manchester/Manchester Airport?

 

[Bald Rick]

Orlando doesn't either, but then the USA isn't exactly on the cutting edge of Rail Travel so its probably not a good comparision

There's plenty of examples in Europe too.

In the UK top 10 airports, only Glasgow and Bristol do not have a rail/metro/tram link, which frankly is pretty good compared to much of Europe. I'm afraid LBA just doesn't see enough passengers to justify a new line.

 

[PrinceBishop]

Hi,

First post here.

I'm afraid LBA just doesn't see enough passengers to justify a new line.

This would seem to be the most obvious reason it won't happen to me. I'm getting these figures from Wikipedia so they could be wrong, but if they are to be believed, in 2013, MAN Airport saw over 20.7 million passengers, compared to 3.3 million at LBA for the same period.

Granted there are far smaller airports than MAN with dedicated rail links but I'm still not sure Leeds/Bradford passenger numbers could justify it. It's true that LBA passenger numbers have been growing quickly these past few years, due in large part to good management, (certainly far better management than at Liverpool, Teesside or Doncaster) but there is a limit to how far these numbers can grow due to the airport's far from ideal location.

Given the money it would cost I can't help but feel that the money would be far better spent on something else. Like trams for Leeds instead of a trolleybus perhaps?

 

[Holmbridge]

Surely a cost effective option is to build a new station as close as possible to the airport on the existing line, then build a new road to the airport to allow shuttle buses direct access to the station? It would of course require some level of co-ordination to ensure the system is integrated plus a frequency of service that minimises waiting times. Last thing needed is a long wait on a cold platform after a long flight

 

[47802]

Surely a cost effective option is to build a new station as close as possible to the airport on the existing line, then build a new road to the airport to allow shuttle buses direct access to the station? It would of course require some level of co-ordination to ensure the system is integrated plus a frequency of service that minimises waiting times. Last thing needed is a long wait on a cold platform after a long flight

Im not sure those setups work particularly well, you need a train service direct to within walking distance of the terminal really, the only advantage to that would be if your travelling during peak hours when the roads are congested, otherwise you may as well just take the direct bus to Leeds, I do think that there is potential for local traffic in the area as well as Airport Traffic, but as ever its going to depend on costs to benefit, and who and if they are going to stump up the cash.

 

[Grumpy]

It's true that LBA passenger numbers have been growing quickly these past few years, due in large part to good management,

Whatever makes you say this?

The growth over the past ten years has little to do with the current management. It’s mainly due to Channel Express spotting a huge gap in the market and forming Jet2 at Leeds. Prior to this the major tour companies/airlines were happy to see people from West Yorkshire struggle over the Pennines and help their load factors and profits at Manchester. The success of Jet2 subsequently encouraged Ryanair and Monarch to base aircraft at Leeds.

The current airport management are more of a disincentive. Thus they introduced “drop off” charges and remodelled the airside accommodation so that there is almost nowhere for families to sit unless they pay to use lounges, bars, cafés etc. Most passengers arrive on aircraft not using a bridge and have to climb flights of steps to get into the building. A real struggle for families with pushchairs and hand luggage. A shambles really.

 

[PrinceBishop]

Whatever makes you say this?

The growth over the past ten years has little to do with the current management. It’s mainly due to Channel Express spotting a huge gap in the market and forming Jet2 at Leeds. Prior to this the major tour companies/airlines were happy to see people from West Yorkshire struggle over the Pennines and help their load factors and profits at Manchester. The success of Jet2 subsequently encouraged Ryanair and Monarch to base aircraft at Leeds.

The current airport management are more of a disincentive. Thus they introduced “drop off” charges and remodelled the airside accommodation so that there is almost nowhere for families to sit unless they pay to use lounges, bars, cafés etc. Most passengers arrive on aircraft not using a bridge and have to climb flights of steps to get into the building. A real struggle for families with pushchairs and hand luggage. A shambles really.

You're absolutely right to say that Jet2 have had a huge role in the success of LBA, and yes, they did identify a gap in the market. There are rumours of how well Monarch are actually doing at Leeds as their decision to take on Jet2 in their own backyard seems an odd one. I still stand by what I said about the management of the airport being generally successful over the past few years, however, this is a rail forum so I don't intend to discuss that at length here. None of this changes what I said about the viability of a dedicated railway spur to LBA.

 

[tbtc]

It was one of the few specifically named projects in the One North proposal as increased local connectivity, looked like Leeds/Bradford were pushing it hard amongst other northern leaders.

The cynic in me wonders whether this is a "local" decision.

For me, a rail link to LBA would be well down the list of priorities for investment in "the north" - if you want to spend money on the Horsforth line then surely electrification to Harrogate would be better...

...however, electrification to Harrogate would mean spending money outside West Yorkshire, and would be of more use to North Yorkshire (than to those in West Yorkshire), so it's in Leeds/ Bradford's interests to try to spend money in their own back yard, rather than lobby for a "bigger picture" idea that'll benefit more people.

Could this be a quid-pro-quo arrangement where Leeds/ Bradford will only support a scheme elsewhere if they get something entirely within their own boundaries too?

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but I worry that the "One North" route is going to see more squabbles from councils trying to make sure that *their* local area sees some investment (because it's more important to me to spend £100m on my neck of the woods than to spend £100m on something that'll be more useful across the board but only touches my patch)?

I'm afraid LBA just doesn't see enough passengers to justify a new line

True.

If you want to put a station at a busy location in West Yorkshire then the White Rose Centre surely attracts more people?

There's also the issue that a direct rail link to Leeds won't help the other city in the name of the Airport, so we'll then see a scheme to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on a second route so that Bradford can have its own services (see the "Bradford Crossrail" thread)? Cynical?

 

[noddingdonkey]

Surely the more difficult it is to reach the airport by car, then how much more competitive will the rail link be, when built. We want to reduce use of car do we not?

Providing the trains run at times which are appropriate for the first and last flight times (unlike the current bus service).

 

[Bald Rick]

Im not sure those setups work particularly well, you need a train service direct to within walking distance of the terminal really

Bus shuttle works pretty well at Luton.

 

[deltic08]

The cynic in me wonders whether this is a "local" decision.

For me, a rail link to LBA would be well down the list of priorities for investment in "the north" - if you want to spend money on the Horsforth line then surely electrification to Harrogate would be better...

...however, electrification to Harrogate would mean spending money outside West Yorkshire, and would be of more use to North Yorkshire (than to those in West Yorkshire), so it's in Leeds/ Bradford's interests to try to spend money in their own back yard, rather than lobby for a "bigger picture" idea that'll benefit more people.

Could this be a quid-pro-quo arrangement where Leeds/ Bradford will only support a scheme elsewhere if they get something entirely within their own boundaries too?

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but I worry that the "One North" route is going to see more squabbles from councils trying to make sure that *their* local area sees some investment (because it's more important to me to spend £100m on my neck of the woods than to spend £100m on something that'll be more useful across the board but only touches my patch)?

Horsforth-Harrogate-York may be outside West Yorkshire but is within Leeds City Region as far as transport planning is concerned. Leeds Metro only paid one quarter of the electrification feasibility of this line with Harrogate, York and North Yorkshire County Council sharing the rest.

 

[HowardGWR]

Horsforth-Harrogate-York may be outside West Yorkshire but is within Leeds City Region as far as transport planning is concerned. Leeds Metro only paid one quarter of the electrification feasibility of this line with Harrogate, York and North Yorkshire County Council sharing the rest.

The foregoing discussion reminds me that for transport issues, regional assembly government was the right level for strategic links investment (such as 'where should we have sub regional airports').

For local transport issues, (such as connections to said airports) the city region is the best level of decision making.

You will always get 'border' issues, but the suggested above split does remove a lot of the petty stuff that others have revealed.

For inter-regional and international connections, clearly national government (e.g. HS2) is the right level.

 

[stanley T]

The ideal site is former RAF Church Fenton recently closed by the MOD and will soon be up for sale. The terminal building could be part of an upgraded station on the Leeds-York line, but no, expansion of LBA is preferred, the most unsuitable site of any UK airport. Due to its altitude, 680 feet above see level, it experiences the worst weather of any airport.

Poor road access to Church Fenton, just B roads

 

[edwin_m]

Yes it would need at least five miles of link road from the A1M. And while there are railways either side, they are both very busy so I can't see anyone wanting to add another station or even stop more trains at the existing one.

 

[deltic08]

Poor road access to Church Fenton, just B roads

Only three miles from the M1/A1(M) junction. Not an insurmountable obstacle.

 

[snowball]

Documents have appeared on the DafT website today about access to L-B airport.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...airport-access-improvements-feasibility-study

 

[matacaster]

Hi,


"Granted there are far smaller airports than MAN with dedicated rail links"

Teeside Airport station = 8 passengers last year (lowest of ANY station in country).

 

[noddingdonkey]

Hardly a fair point given that it only has a parliamentary service! Very much chicken and egg, I think.

 

[alexl92]

How are these services gonna be operated? Northern are already stretched in terms of rolling stock. Are we assuming hypothetical cascade of extra stock?

 

[ASharpe]

Documents have appeared on the DafT website today about access to L-B airport.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...airport-access-improvements-feasibility-study

The consultants seem to have got their address wrong, hope they don't specialise in geography or transport.

Consultant
WSP
3 White Rose Office Park
Manchester
LS11 0DL
UK

 

[HowardGWR]

How are these services gonna be operated? Northern are already stretched in terms of rolling stock. Are we assuming hypothetical cascade of extra stock?

dunnow.