Leaving Early

[district]

First I want to clarify some points that have been raised so that those in doubt know I am not staff-bashing.

• I asked the guard whether he minded me having a word with him.
• I very calmly (and in no way abusively, confrontational or aggressive in any way) asked if there was a reason why the train left so early. He replied that it didn't.
• I did not agree with the point because of the information I saw from the Customer Information Displays. After saying this he then admitted he left early but knew not of any reason for the early departure.
• Afterwards he said that 'no-one was on the platform'. This is untrue because I saw him stand at the guard panel, lock the doors, and give the starting signal at the earlier time, even know myself and others were attempting to board.
• The only reason for the complaint was due to the fact the guard made no apology, and was generally rude. Had he offered an explanation of the reason for leaving early or a simple apology would have been enough and I would not have complained, but he gave the impression that he didn't care.

One more time, I will never and would never staff-bash and after college I wish to become a guard myself. Yes, I'm sure I'll make mistakes but I will always try to show courtesy towards those who use my services.

I'd also like to give heartfelt apologies to anyone who I may have upset. This certainly wasn't my intention.




District

 

[snail]

The train was the 0928 HGS service, not sure if it was a CHX or a Cannon. It left at 0925 and 30 seconds. The next train was the 0932 Southern to Ashford Intl, which calls at Hastings next. We took this and then spoke to the guard.

I just wanted to instigate a discussion, I didnt want to staff-bash. I wouldn't have bothered but his attitude was that he didnt know of any reason why he had to leave early.

All reasonable points, but it is really worth the hassle of reporting someone because you had to wait an extra 4 minutes for the next train? I'm also guessing that your conversation would add another 3 or 4 minutes so time doesn't appear to have been of the essence here.

 

[yorkie]

By the OP's admission, he confronted the guard which suggests an element of aggression (confront: Meet (someone) face to face with hostile or argumentative intent). Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but to me, that does not sound like an acceptable way to go about making a complaint.

It suggests that to you because you have certain connotations attached to that word. It is inappropriate of you to comment on the manner that someone spoke to someone else when you have no idea, in fact I would go as far to suggest that you have, to use your words "confronted" the OP (and in the manner that you associate with that word), which is most disappointing and regrettable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All reasonable points, but it is really worth the hassle of reporting someone because you had to wait an extra 4 minutes for the next train? I'm also guessing that your conversation would add another 3 or 4 minutes so time doesn't appear to have been of the essence here.

In this case, yes. If the guard said "Oh, sorry, my working timetable said a different time" or "Oh, sorry, I made a mistake" or similar, then I rather doubt the OP would have reported it.

But the guard denied that it occurred. That means it is then worthy of reporting, IMO, because if you do not report it, it could happen again and inconvenience others.

Passengers are perfectly entitled to report such a matter, and should not in any way be made to feel that they are not.

 

[es373]

District.

You shouldn't have to explain yourself fella.

 

[yorkie]

... I wish to become a guard myself...

All the best with that

The vast majority of guards are absolutely sound (and I am sure you will be too!)

There will always be a minority that let the side down, it's the same with almost any job on the planet.

 

[RailwayDan]

Trains arriving into London Bridge for Cannon Street or Charing Cross regularly leave a minute early or so, but perhaps that is because of the frequency of service. Platform 6 can get very busy at times with a train arriving every 2/3 minutes (all Southeastern to Charing Cross and FCC to Bedford)

Why not go early to ease congestion? As I often hear LU despatchers say 'they'll be another one in a minute!!'

 

[embers25]

Four minutes may not sound a lot but potentially that four minutes could cause you to miss your onward connection and whos to know that the next train isn't late. Also you may have an operator specific or advance ticket only valid on that train (I know not true here but in theory it is and certainly could have been the case when my XC service left very early from Lichfield and Burton as I reported on here a while back).

 

[Roylang]

The impact of a few minutes can be quite significant though for some trains. A short while ago I got off a train at Hayle which then departed just shy of 3 minutes early compared to the time on the information screens. The next Penzance service was not for another 3 hours.

As an aside, the down side information screen at Hayle has been out of service for weeks. As a result I have seen people cross the track (legally) to check the up screen and have to cross back when the crossing light has turned red as their train is coming. Frightening.

Roy

 

[WelshBluebird]

All reasonable points, but it is really worth the hassle of reporting someone because you had to wait an extra 4 minutes for the next train?

In this case, maybe.
But in other cases it could have been an extra hour, and extra two hours, or may have been the last train of the day.
And of course, an extra 4 minutes could easily lead to someone missing an onward connection.
And in this case, I do think it is worth reporting it simply as the guard apparently initially denied it.

 

[SouthStand]

First I want to clarify some points that have been raised so that those in doubt know I am not staff-bashing.

• I asked the guard whether he minded me having a word with him.
• I very calmly (and in no way abusively, confrontational or aggressive in any way) asked if there was a reason why the train left so early. He replied that it didn't.
• I did not agree with the point because of the information I saw from the Customer Information Displays. After saying this he then admitted he left early but knew not of any reason for the early departure.
• Afterwards he said that 'no-one was on the platform'. This is untrue because I saw him stand at the guard panel, lock the doors, and give the starting signal at the earlier time, even know myself and others were attempting to board.
• The only reason for the complaint was due to the fact the guard made no apology, and was generally rude. Had he offered an explanation of the reason for leaving early or a simple apology would have been enough and I would not have complained, but he gave the impression that he didn't care.

One more time, I will never and would never staff-bash and after college I wish to become a guard myself. Yes, I'm sure I'll make mistakes but I will always try to show courtesy towards those who use my services.

I'd also like to give heartfelt apologies to anyone who I may have upset. This certainly wasn't my intention.




District

No need to apologise, it can be a bit of a railway "old boys club" on here sometimes and they don't take criticism very well.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Funny how some people get so wound up about so called "staff bashing" when at other times it seems like people will defend staff to the hilt without knowing the full story or even when it seems clear staff were wrong. In other cases there is plenty of what could be seen as passenger or enthusiast bashing. To be honest I get pretty sick of the number of times people will use the actions of one or two idiot enthusiasts to justify a bad attitude to all of them. There is also plenty of operator bashing that goes on, yet for many that seems fine as long as it's only the operator and not staff being bashed. It's easy at times to get the impression that train drivers, guards and signallers are all wonderful and do a perfect job, except when they make perfectly excusable mistakes, and everyone else (including others in the industry) are always wrong yet expected to be perfect.

 

[es373]

Its one of many fantastic perks of working on the railways Chris! )

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Given that departure times are logged automatically, though, is there any need or benefit from reporting such instances to the TOC?

They should take action against staff responsible irrespective of customer feedback, surely?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

No need to apologise, it can be a bit of a railway "old boys club" on here sometimes and they don't take criticism very well.

most take criticism very well if there is a sound basis to it and it certainly isn't an "old boys club" stop antagonising things

 

[SouthStand]

most take criticism very well if there is a sound basis to it and it certainly isn't an "old boys club" stop antagonising things

You'll see my post included the word "sometimes". There are numerous threads on here where even the suggestion of railway staff wrongdoing is met with an instant defence by certain railway staff members.

You'll also see from replies in this thread that others agree!

 

[radamfi]

Given that departure times are logged automatically, though, is there any need or benefit from reporting such instances to the TOC?

You would have thought so, but maybe they don't mind as it means more chance of being on time. Is early running actually against franchise regulations anyway?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You'll see my post included the word "sometimes". There are numerous threads on here where even the suggestion of railway staff wrongdoing is met with an instant defence by certain railway staff members.

You'll also see from replies in this thread that others agree!

with the utmost respect how many "accusations" have been banded about by people only to find out that whatever that person was accused of doing was done with either instructions from their control or the accuser got it completely wrong, 99% of the train staff who post in this forum are highly trained professionals who know exactly what we are doing, yes mistakes can be made or a member of train staff can be out of line and I will be the first to berate them for it. unless you have absolute proof and are 100% certain that a member of staff has broken the rules then by all means complain but if you haven't don't!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

First I want to clarify some points that have been raised so that those in doubt know I am not staff-bashing.

• I asked the guard whether he minded me having a word with him.
• I very calmly (and in no way abusively, confrontational or aggressive in any way) asked if there was a reason why the train left so early. He replied that it didn't.
• I did not agree with the point because of the information I saw from the Customer Information Displays. After saying this he then admitted he left early but knew not of any reason for the early departure.
• Afterwards he said that 'no-one was on the platform'. This is untrue because I saw him stand at the guard panel, lock the doors, and give the starting signal at the earlier time, even know myself and others were attempting to board.
• The only reason for the complaint was due to the fact the guard made no apology, and was generally rude. Had he offered an explanation of the reason for leaving early or a simple apology would have been enough and I would not have complained, but he gave the impression that he didn't care.

One more time, I will never and would never staff-bash and after college I wish to become a guard myself. Yes, I'm sure I'll make mistakes but I will always try to show courtesy towards those who use my services.

I'd also like to give heartfelt apologies to anyone who I may have upset. This certainly wasn't my intention.




District

With all due respect m8 you won't go far on the railway with that attitude, sure the guards attitude could have been alot better and if he did leave 3-4 minutes early he would get pulled by his CTM anyway there was no need to complain (IMHO)

 

[Flamingo]

I can say from first-hand experience that early running is not only rare, but will result in a "please explain" from Control or Management (with my TOC anyway).

We have recently had memo's warning us to run to the "public" timetable, not the working timetable, especially if the working timetable says to leave earlier than the public timetable.

But locking the doors 40 seconds before departure for a XX:XX:00 wheels turning is what we do, and aim for.

Also, it the Guards watch that is the arbiter of the time. We have been given radio controlled watches as part of our kit to ensure they are always correct.

 

[yorkie]

unless you have absolute proof and are 100% certain that a member of staff has broken the rules then by all means complain but if you haven't don't!

I don't agree with this. You have no right to instruct people not to complain. It is up to the individual. In this case I would encourage the OP to complain - as he politely spoke to the guard, and the guard denied it. So I totally support the OP 100%. You can disagree, as is your right, but please don't tell people they can't report something - they clearly can.

I do have concerns that there are some people in the railway industry who give the impression that things should be hushed up, for no concerns to ever be brought to a TOCs attention, and for passengers to feel they are always wrong. That isn't right, and no-one should be made to feel that way.

With all due respect m8 you won't go far on the railway with that attitude, sure the guards attitude could have been alot better and if he did leave 3-4 minutes early he would get pulled by his CTM anyway there was no need to complain (IMHO)

Firstly please don't use 'txt spk', but apart from that I disagree that he won't go far, on the contrary. He was polite, gave the guard a chance to explain and then went about things in the right way. Clearly this is someone who cares about the rail industry and wants to improve it. He acted totally correctly.

 

[The Planner]

We have recently had memo's warning us to run to the "public" timetable, not the working timetable, especially if the working timetable says to leave earlier than the public timetable.

You have instances of that ?? you shouldn't do, it should always be the other way around, the PTT is earlier than the WTT. Can you give any examples ??

 

[richw]

I don't agree with this. You have no right to instruct people not to complain. It is up to the individual. In this case I would encourage the OP to complain - as he politely spoke to the guard, and the guard denied it. So I totally support the OP 100%. You can disagree, as is your right, but please don't tell people they can't report something - they clearly can.

I do have concerns that there are some people in the railway industry who give the impression that things should be hushed up, for no concerns to ever be brought to a TOCs attention, and for passengers to feel they are always wrong. That isn't right, and no-one should be made to feel that way.


Firstly please don't use 'txt spk', but apart from that I disagree that he won't go far, on the contrary. He was polite, gave the guard a chance to explain and then went about things in the right way. Clearly this is someone who cares about the rail industry and wants to improve it. He acted totally correctly.

I'm thinking perhaps from his comments in this thread we have a guard who perhaps has a guilty conscience here, and wants people to be hush hush for a reason. hopefully this is not the case however, his comments could easily lead to this assumption!

 

[Flamingo]

You have instances of that ?? you shouldn't do, it should always be the other way around, the PTT is earlier than the WTT. Can you give any examples ??

I'm not aware of any specific examples, it was just mentioned in the memo, as far as I can remember. It might have been an exercise in ass-covering by the author.

Sometimes, the weekend amended diagrams if there is engineering works can leave a bit to be desired, I've had diagrams that showed a train I was due to travel on as leaving later than the public timetable, which has nearly made me miss it!

 

[Matt Taylor]

I can do better than that, I have had a schedule card giving me the same time of departure at two different stations!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I can do better than that, I have had a schedule card giving me the same time of departure at two different stations!

Yep we can have that on a few jobs and the other regular one on our diagrams is the good old working timetable, but heck who cares about that when a member of railway staff canbe attempted to be dropped in it, Get proof or don't bother, I wouldn't accuse anyone of anything without proof, even an unfounded allegation can stay on an employees record.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't agree with this. You have no right to instruct people not to complain. It is up to the individual. In this case I would encourage the OP to complain - as he politely spoke to the guard, and the guard denied it. So I totally support the OP 100%. You can disagree, as is your right, but please don't tell people they can't report something - they clearly can.

I do have concerns that there are some people in the railway industry who give the impression that things should be hushed up, for no concerns to ever be brought to a TOCs attention, and for passengers to feel they are always wrong. That isn't right, and no-one should be made to feel that way.


Firstly please don't use 'txt spk', but apart from that I disagree that he won't go far, on the contrary. He was polite, gave the guard a chance to explain and then went about things in the right way. Clearly this is someone who cares about the rail industry and wants to improve it. He acted totally correctly.

As I CLEARLY stated, if the guard in question had left early he would get hauled over the coals by his Conductor Team Manager (CTM) as Network Rail would report it and the TOC concerned would be fined heavily as it would be a cancellation, that is common knowledge, there was no need to complain.

 

[exile]

Yep we can have that on a few jobs and the other regular one on our diagrams is the good old working timetable, but heck who cares about that when a member of railway staff canbe attempted to be dropped in it, Get proof or don't bother, I wouldn't accuse anyone of anything without proof, even an unfounded allegation can stay on an employees record.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As I CLEARLY stated, if the guard in question had left early he would get hauled over the coals by his Conductor Team Manager (CTM) as Network Rail would report it and the TOC concerned would be fined heavily as it would be a cancellation, that is common knowledge, there was no need to complain.

How would NR know if a train left early - and even if they did, how is the ordinary passenger to know if this has led to any action being taken? I don't want any member of staff to be disciplined I would just want it not to happen again. This has happened to me before - not often, maybe 3 or 4 times in 30 years. It is annoying when you've got an hour till the next train and have to explain why you're late for work. "Train left early" - "Pull the other one".....

 

[ralphchadkirk]

How would NR know if a train left early - and even if they did, how is the ordinary passenger to know if this has led to any action being taken? I don't want any member of staff to be disciplined I would just want it not to happen again. This has happened to me before - not often, maybe 3 or 4 times in 30 years. It is annoying when you've got an hour till the next train and have to explain why you're late for work. "Train left early" - "Pull the other one".....

NR keep a record of the times trains pass TIPLOCs, compared against the time in the WTT. This is mainly for delays so delay minutes can be attributed, but will also show early leavings.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

NR keep a record of the times trains pass TIPLOCs, compared against the time in the WTT. This is mainly for delays so delay minutes can be attributed, but will also show early leavings.

I once got a suitable conversation for leaving a station 2 minutes early ((a *ollocking)i misread my watch which is easy to do, I denied itas I swore I left bang on time, however I was proved wrong by NR as they had reported it. now if a passenger had a go at me at the time I would have probably been a bit short as well, to complain (IMHO)about something so trivial is daft.

 

[cuccir]

I once got a suitable conversation for leaving a station 2 minutes early ((a *ollocking)i misread my watch which is easy to do, I denied itas I swore I left bang on time, however I was proved wrong by NR as they had reported it. now if a passenger had a go at me at the time I would have probably been a bit short as well, to complain (IMHO)about something so trivial is daft.

I can understand a guard believing she/he had left at the correct time and then denying it when challenged - as you note, its easy to do and will happen from time to time, that's life and people make mistakes.

I'm not sure, however, if it is 'trivial'. On some occasions, missing a train that left early could be pretty darn serious.

 

[radamfi]

it would be a cancellation

If that is so, would Delay Repay be payable in the event of early running? You would have thought so, but I suspect the clerk processing the application would look at the TRUST for that day and not see any delay.