Le Shuttle - could it include a walk-on passenger coach ?

[YorksLad12]

My thought, could a low cost operator offer an Ashford - Lille service, you have the security infrastructure at both locations, OK so it would need staffing up. In term of connections you have a good service from Ashford into London, as well as a service to the Sussex coast, so it might open up some new markets. Lille offers a range of connections to Belgium and France, including through TGV's right down to the south of France as well as the SW and Brittany, not the clockface timetables we are used to, but enough journeys to be useful.

True, but I am looking on with great interest if one of the Italian operators can be able to provide a service at Ashford International. Hopefully, with competition the prices should be better if Eurostar also decided to resume services at Ashford International but this is more theoretical than reality.

If you could find somewhere to do passport control (etc), then perhaps a (Stratford-)Ebbsfleet-Ashford-Calais-Lille shuttle? But the overheads probably wouldn't make it worthwhile, even of the cut the cost of the paths through the tunnel. I looked at a long weekend in Brussels last year, and couldn't believe the cost of tickets compared to my previous trip, ten years previously. It's like they don't want you to travel...

 

[mike57]

If you could find somewhere to do passport control (etc), then perhaps a (Stratford-)Ebbsfleet-Ashford-Calais-Lille shuttle? But the overheads probably wouldn't make it worthwhile, even of the cut the cost of the paths through the tunnel. I looked at a long weekend in Brussels last year, and couldn't believe the cost of tickets compared to my previous trip, ten years previously. It's like they don't want you to travel...

I agree that adding Stratford and Ebbsfleet would be useful, but every time you add a stop you need security and passport control, and this adds to costs. Lille already has everything in daily use, we changed there returning from a trip to France a couple of weeks ago, and on a Saturday late morning it wasnt busy, certainly compared with Gare du Nord or St Pancras. Ashford has the infrastructure, just needs manning again. I think in order to undercut Eurostar enough to make it worth the hassle to passengers you would need to keep other costs to a minimum, and adding 3 more lots of security and passport control to the 2 you need for a shuttle would increase costs and therefore fares.

Calais always feels like a bit of a backwater anyway, which is only important because its the French side of the shortest channel crossing. Onward rail connections from Frethun are not that great.

I actually think a low cost operator could make money on an Ashford Lille no frills shuttle, as Ashford had HS1 services into St Pancras, calling at Stratford and Ebbsfleet, as well as local services, and Lille Europe has good long distance connections, as well as Lille Flanders offering more local connections, which is an easy 10 minute walk.

The thing with Eurostar, they can pretty much fill their trains at the fares they are charging, and unlike our internal rail network they are not in receipt of any subsidies as far I am aware. So as a business they have a duty to shareholders to maximise profits by legal means, and that means setting tickets prices to ideally just fill their trains. Too high and they will carry fresh air, too low and they will be leaving cash on the table. When I was booking our holiday I found that some flexibility in travel dates and times can make big differences, and the whole thing becomes an exercise in an equation with loads of different variables. For example is it worth staying in or near London overnight to leave on an earlier (and cheaper) departure.

In the end we did what most people probably do unless their budget is very constrained and booked the most convenient journey, but shifting travel days by one day to save some money. If you are very budget sensitive you probably wont be looking at rail anyway. Flixbus offer single fares starting at £26. Flying should be quicker and cheaper if you believe the headline fares offered by the low cost operators but the reality is somewhat different.

From a geographical point of view we are not well placed to fly. The nearest airport with any 'useful' (to us) flights is Leeds Bradford, which is a 90 minute+ drive, then parking, and a two hour before flight check in, so 4 hours later and we are no nearer our destination!!!. Then you have additional baggage charges, as living in rural area holidays are also an opportunity to stock up on wants that cannot be purchased locally. So personal experience having used both modes is flying is actually slightly slower door to door and less convenient. If you live within easy reach of a suitable airport obviously the optimum choice would be different.

 

[markymark2000]

Running a bus/coach service that does something like (Ashford-)Folkestone-Chunnel-Calais (ville+frethun+city centre) could serve a local connectivity need, and wouldn't be too expensive to operate, but I would expect it to require a subsidy if not a large one.

However, it would follow a similar connectivity need to the ferry for passenger service, so it may be cheaper to make an agreement with one or multiple of the ferry companies to take for passengers on more or all crossings

Neither case would require any infrastructure work

One potential downside of just "someone" doing it as a commercial venture is that, unless they can do a deal in conjunction with Le Shuttle, then the costs of putting a coach on Le Shuttle isn't cheap, so you'd need to stimulate quite a bit of demand. 2025's coach fares are £715 rising to £850/£1200/POA (Price on Application) around many weekends or holidays. These rise to £735, £885, £1235 or POA for 2026. And these are just one-way singles!

As well as the high costs for coaches on Le shuttle, they have also not been very forgiving towards coaches in recent times, including but not limited to restricting the amount of coaches travelling on the shuttle. They are highly unlikely to then support or run a coach which would take up this already limited space.

It'd be a great idea and even if there is/was enough demand to fill the bus regularly, the costs are too high, and Le Shuttle keeps going through anti-coach phases so it wouldn't last long on this route.

The flixbus website has a stop list for each city: Dover, Calais and Dunkirk. For Dover they are within ferry terminals or entry points to them. Calais is much the same aside from a truck stop listed as PreUK check. That is accessible to cars with no public transport, but looks a fallback for those without travel documents than a location that would welcome frequent drop offs or pick ups. Dunkirk has a separate coach stop listed but no options given for London.

You can not book the Dover or Calais or Dunkirk terminal stops. From the many dealings I've had with the Flixbus site, it looks that the website is integrated with the driver app and so these sorts of stops are needed to be shown for the tracking to work properly and to assist the driver. That's my working out of the situation anyway as they had a stop in Northampton which was labelled 'driver change only' on a number of routes which is of course absolutely useless for the general public to know, but it appeared as a stop pages and showed in the journey itinerary etc.

To sell the short hops would need to add stops somewhere more useful increasing journey time and cost. The cost to provide the service would be the same as the full route as wouldn't sell many London - Dover or Calais - Paris tickets that match up with those doing the short hops. They probably wouldn't forecast a lot of demand for such a route as a result.

London to Dover and then Dover to Europe tickets would probably do alright. I think the issues start when you are heading towards London because then the punctuality is at the mercy of the ferry terminals which as we all know, can vary significantly. Is it for this reason perhaps why Flix, Regiojet and BlaBlaCar etc all don't pick up in Kent at all, and run none stop between London and the ferry? Sindbad seems to be the only one which stops in Kent, and even this is at Maidstone and Folkestone services, but no local travel is allowed (is Cabotage allowed for international routes in the UK?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

(is Cabotage allowed for international routes in the UK?)

It isn't cabotage in that sense because everyone on that bus has already entered the UK legally at the ferry port. Cabotage is where a train passes through a third country without immigration formalities because there aren't any stops there. An example (pre Schengen) is how Austrian trains from the west of the country pass through Germany without stopping on their way to Wien.

As long as the stops aren't too close together thus requiring registration as a local bus route (could that be an issue perhaps if you had too many stops?) I can't see any reason it wouldn't be legal to take local passengers. They probably just don't want people blocking seats that could be sold for more to longer distance passengers.

 

[Nottingham59]

Cabotage is where a train passes through a third country without immigration formalities because there aren't any stops there.

I thought Cabotage was the right to transport passengers within one country by an operator from another country?

Like BA flying LHR to NY and then on to LA, being allowed to carry NY-LA passengers.

 

[Tester]

(is Cabotage allowed for international routes in the UK?)

It isn't cabotage in that sense because everyone on that bus has already entered the UK legally at the ferry port. Cabotage is where a train passes through a third country without immigration formalities because there aren't any stops there. An example (pre Schengen) is how Austrian trains from the west of the country pass through Germany without stopping on their way to Wien.

Your definition of cabotage is not correct.

Cabotage is the transport of passengers or freight within a country by a foreign carrier, and is a form of protectionism.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought Cabotage was the right to transport passengers within one country by an operator from another country?

Like BA flying LHR to NY and then on to LA, being allowed to carry NY-LA passengers.

Sorry, you're right, I've got my terms mixed up. What is the term for what I described, then? I believe it's Korridorzug in German - "corridor train".

In any case we aren't talking about transporting people within the UK, we're talking about an international journey, just a very short one!

I might start a thread on that because it would be interesting to know how many there are:

Examples of trains that pass through other countries without stopping and without formalities

On another thread (amid confusion on the meaning of the term "cabotage", which doesn't mean this) there was mention of Korridorzuege - "corridor trains" - whereby a train passes through another country between two points in the first country without immigration formalities because there are no...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

P&O Ferries provide by far the worst onboard service as well. Imagine a floating branch of McDonald's in P&O branding, but double all the prices. That's not far off what you get. At least on the newest vessels the seating areas are cleaner and nicer than in your local burger chain, and they have working charging sockets, but that's about it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

P&O Ferries provide by far the worst onboard service as well. Imagine a floating branch of McDonald's in P&O branding, but double all the prices. That's not far off what you get. At least on the newest vessels the seating areas are cleaner and nicer than in your local burger chain, and they have working charging sockets, but that's about it.

Yep, used them recently and the catering was absolute rubbish, particularly on the newest boat. Expensive, fixed meals (they won't even sell you a portion of chips on its own) and it's all microwave or air fryer/oven cooked. Absolute rubbish in every way. I preferred the old buffet counter where you could combine what you wanted, and at least the chips there were cooked in oil rather than just glorified oven chips.

It's not even anywhere near McD's quality, and the prices are more Five Guys. It's the sort of food you expect to see in the freezers of Aldi or Iceland for 99p a go but selling for fifteen quid.

 

[30907]

I think the issues start when you are heading towards London because then the punctuality is at the mercy of the ferry terminals which as we all know, can vary significantly. Is it for this reason perhaps why Flix, Regiojet and BlaBlaCar etc all don't pick up in Kent at all, and run none stop between London and the ferry? Sindbad seems to be the only one which stops in Kent, and even this is at Maidstone and Folkestone services

Perhaps because they don't think the demand is sufficient to make it worth while? (Even with minimal terminal costs and no security/passport issues.)

 

[yorksrob]

Yep, used them recently and the catering was absolute rubbish, particularly on the newest boat. Expensive, fixed meals (they won't even sell you a portion of chips on its own) and it's all microwave or air fryer/oven cooked. Absolute rubbish in every way. I preferred the old buffet counter where you could combine what you wanted, and at least the chips there were cooked in oil rather than just glorified oven chips.

It's not even anywhere near McD's quality, and the prices are more Five Guys. It's the sort of food you expect to see in the freezers of Aldi or Iceland for 99p a go but selling for fifteen quid.

It all sounds a long way from the days of Hengist and Horsa !

 

[Bletchleyite]

It all sounds a long way from the days of Hengist and Horsa !

Well, quite. It's quite strange, to be honest, as surely anyone wanting to do the crossing quickly will just use Eurotunnel, and the ferries should more be about low fares but decent (optional, paid for) on board service to enjoy the crossing?

I remember once saying to a KLM steward that Ryanair offered better meal service on short haul than they did because it's a profit centre so there's reward in it being of decent quality and a broad offering. P&O would sell more if they did the same!

 

[Trainbike46]

P&O seems to be a very low-quality outfit - they compete directly with Stena on NI-Scotland journeys. According to everyone I know who has used both, Stena is better in every way.

The fact that P&O has been shrinking in a fairly stable market does suggest that whatever they're doing is not the road to business success.

 

[HSTEd]

Well, quite. It's quite strange, to be honest, as surely anyone wanting to do the crossing quickly will just use Eurotunnel, and the ferries should more be about low fares but decent (optional, paid for) on board service to enjoy the crossing?

I remember once saying to a KLM steward that Ryanair offered better meal service on short haul than they did because it's a profit centre so there's reward in it being of decent quality and a broad offering. P&O would sell more if they did the same!

I think, on a societal basis, the best thing for society would just be to expand Eurotunnel service/capacity to drive the ferries entirely out of the market, apart from the limited dangerous goods activity that would likely move to unaccompanied trailers. That would have various benefits, including releasing a lot of space near the centre of Dover for other uses.

Obviously, commercial factors rule the day at Eurotunnel and they've decided the optimum yield on their infrastructure investment can be gained this way, but still.

 

[The Planner]

I think, on a societal basis, the best thing for society would just be to expand Eurotunnel service/capacity to drive the ferries entirely out of the market, apart from the limited dangerous goods activity that would likely move to unaccompanied trailers. That would have various benefits, including releasing a lot of space near the centre of Dover for other uses.

Obviously, commercial factors rule the day at Eurotunnel and they've decided the optimum yield on their infrastructure investment can be gained this way, but still.

That leaves a single point of failure to cross the channel. And after being caught in Eurotunnel farces before, it wouldn't be pretty.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, quite. It's quite strange, to be honest, as surely anyone wanting to do the crossing quickly will just use Eurotunnel, and the ferries should more be about low fares but decent (optional, paid for) on board service to enjoy the crossing?

I remember once saying to a KLM steward that Ryanair offered better meal service on short haul than they did because it's a profit centre so there's reward in it being of decent quality and a broad offering. P&O would sell more if they did the same!

Yes, better to have a decent paid for option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==

Can this service be used by members of the public who don't have a bicycle? If so, problem solved; if not, then easily fixed by simple administrative action.

I notice that the Folkestone Holiday Inn is quite close to Folkestone West, so it feels as though a natural step would be to extend it there for foot passengers.

 

[YorksLad12]

I agree that adding Stratford and Ebbsfleet would be useful, but every time you add a stop you need security and passport control, and this adds to costs. Lille already has everything in daily use, we changed there returning from a trip to France a couple of weeks ago, and on a Saturday late morning it wasnt busy, certainly compared with Gare du Nord or St Pancras. Ashford has the infrastructure, just needs manning again. I think in order to undercut Eurostar enough to make it worth the hassle to passengers you would need to keep other costs to a minimum, and adding 3 more lots of security and passport control to the 2 you need for a shuttle would increase costs and therefore fares.

Calais always feels like a bit of a backwater anyway, which is only important because its the French side of the shortest channel crossing. Onward rail connections from Frethun are not that great.

I actually think a low cost operator could make money on an Ashford Lille no frills shuttle, as Ashford had HS1 services into St Pancras, calling at Stratford and Ebbsfleet, as well as local services, and Lille Europe has good long distance connections, as well as Lille Flanders offering more local connections, which is an easy 10 minute walk.

The thing with Eurostar, they can pretty much fill their trains at the fares they are charging, and unlike our internal rail network they are not in receipt of any subsidies as far I am aware. So as a business they have a duty to shareholders to maximise profits by legal means, and that means setting tickets prices to ideally just fill their trains. Too high and they will carry fresh air, too low and they will be leaving cash on the table. When I was booking our holiday I found that some flexibility in travel dates and times can make big differences, and the whole thing becomes an exercise in an equation with loads of different variables. For example is it worth staying in or near London overnight to leave on an earlier (and cheaper) departure.

In the end we did what most people probably do unless their budget is very constrained and booked the most convenient journey, but shifting travel days by one day to save some money. If you are very budget sensitive you probably wont be looking at rail anyway. Flixbus offer single fares starting at £26. Flying should be quicker and cheaper if you believe the headline fares offered by the low cost operators but the reality is somewhat different.

From a geographical point of view we are not well placed to fly. The nearest airport with any 'useful' (to us) flights is Leeds Bradford, which is a 90 minute+ drive, then parking, and a two hour before flight check in, so 4 hours later and we are no nearer our destination!!!. Then you have additional baggage charges, as living in rural area holidays are also an opportunity to stock up on wants that cannot be purchased locally. So personal experience having used both modes is flying is actually slightly slower door to door and less convenient. If you live within easy reach of a suitable airport obviously the optimum choice would be different.

No, I don't think they get subsidies now that they are not partly UK owned. They didn't qualify for any relief from the UK government during the pandemic either.

It reminds me a bit of previous conversations here on the lack of local services between Newark, Retford and Grantham. An Ashford-Lille service would make local connections without taking up a full London-Paris/Brussels path. Then again, I remember the days when there was talk about creating commuting services between northern France and Kent. Happy(ier) days.

A great many years ago I saw a documentary on the building of the tunnel, and an SNCF person they interviewed had London as a branch of the TGV lines on a poster behind them. This is pretty much what we have now, and they are the people we need to convince to run it.

 

[DarloRich]

How would we comply with the passport and security requirements of international travel?

 

[Stephen42]

I notice that the Folkestone Holiday Inn is quite close to Folkestone West, so it feels as though a natural step would be to extend it there for foot passengers.

The bike service is £50 each way and requires reservation two weeks in advance of travel. Are any foot passengers likely to travel on those terms?

To massively lower the price changes the economics of the operation and undercut what they'd charge others for transporting each passenger.

 

[Trainbike46]

How would we comply with the passport and security requirements of international travel?

The coach/bus proposals? The same way coaches through the tunnel currently do.
Ferry foot passengers? The terminal where coach passengers currently go through passport control.
A train service? Controls at the stations, as Eurostar does now.

 

[DarloRich]

The coach/bus proposals? The same way coaches through the tunnel currently do.

how does that happen? I have never used the tunnel on a coach. I assume everyone gets off, goes through passport control, has baggage checked, reboards and reloads coach.

That will have a decent time and cost penalty surely. What happens to the driver if he is shuttling back and forth all day? Does he have to be checked each time?

 

[Trainbike46]

how does that happen? I have never used the tunnel on a coach. I assume everyone gets off, goes through passport control, has baggage checked, reboards and reloads coach.

That is basically exactly how it happens, or at least it was last time when I crossed the channel by coach. I don't think baggage was checked for all passengers though.

That will have a decent time and cost penalty. What happens to the driver if he is shuttling back and forth all day?

It really doesn't take long at all, there is not that many people on a coach. No clue on your last question.

 

[Bletchleyite]

how does that happen? I have never used the tunnel on a coach. I assume everyone gets off, goes through passport control, has baggage checked, reboards and reloads coach.

Yes, that's how it works (though as others have said not all luggage is checked, same as an airport). The provision is there for those on both scheduled and tourist coaches so there wouldn't be a significant extra cost (though no doubt there is a fee of some sort) to use that facility.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, that's how it works (though as others have said not all luggage is checked, same as an airport). The provision is there for those on both scheduled and tourist coaches so there wouldn't be a significant extra cost (though no doubt there is a fee of some sort) to use that facility.

ok - what about the driver?

 

[Bletchleyite]

ok - what about the driver?

I can't for the life of me remember if they show it when booking in as car drivers/passengers do or if it's done while the passengers are queueing in the immigration hall (what happens is that the coach drops them off then drives to the exit to pick them up - you don't really get to see what happens in between).

 

[DarloRich]

I can't for the life of me remember if they show it when booking in as car drivers/passengers do or if it's done while the passengers are queueing in the immigration hall (what happens is that the coach drops them off then drives to the exit to pick them up - you don't really get to see what happens in between).

I just wonder if he or she has to be checked every trip or can get some kind of waiver.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just wonder if he or she has to be checked every trip or can get some kind of waiver.

I'd imagine the ones shuttling people to the ferry but staying in the UK have some sort of ID badge instead. But if travelling I would think they would still have to pass immigration. Pilots and cabin crew do, though they usually get to push to the front of the queue or have a dedicated facility.

 

[YorksLad12]

I'd imagine the ones shuttling people to the ferry but staying in the UK have some sort of ID badge instead. But if travelling I would think they would still have to pass immigration. Pilots and cabin crew do, though they usually get to push to the front of the queue or have a dedicated facility.

At this point, I'm thinking that foot passengers should club together for a taxi and use Le Shuttle!

 

[Trainbike46]

At this point, I'm thinking that foot passengers should club together for a taxi and use Le Shuttle!

Folkestone Taxis offers something like this apparently: https://www.seat61.com/dogs-by-train.htm#using-folkestone-taxis

 

[skyhigh]

There already is a bus

I can't remember the French side - but on the English side, I'm pretty sure it's a service bus that a local operator provides for the required hours. That bus may have other work outside of the current sailings.