Le Shuttle - could it include a walk-on passenger coach ?

[Starmill]

That looks like a normal French-level TER service TBF

Yes. Exactly that.

 

[Trainlog]

A rail solution might be preferable, but would also be orders of magnitude more expensive than paying a bus or three to do some loops.

Cheaper, sure, but in terms of a solution, it seems more of a joke in terms of what Kent used to have.

The county in the last 30 years has lost two good rail-ferry links (Folkestone harbour and Dover marine), Manston airport, Ramsgate ferry services, and the Eurostar services from the International stations.

The restoration of International services at Ashford and Ebbsfleet at this point is also a matter of principle as well as economic. The Eurostar services were still guaranteed to Kent stations when HS1 opened, and the International stations' platforms should never have been allowed to be abandoned in the way it was, especially as the construction of the line is fresh in the locals' minds.

Granted, Kent still got Southeastern high-speed out of it, but the careless actions taken by Eurostar don't exactly act as a great selling point/legacy to those who are sceptical of new rail construction projects such as HS2 or East-West rail, especially those who live near those projects.

 

[izvor]

Granted, Kent still got Southeastern high-speed out of it, but the careless actions taken by Eurostar don't exactly act as a great selling point/legacy to those who are sceptical of new rail construction projects such as HS2 or East-West rail, especially those who live near those projects.

Aren't those "careless actions taken by Eurostar" actually the refusal of the UK Government to restore border facilities at Ashford and Ebbsfleet post-Covid?

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Or could it be that most foot passengers of old are now much better served by Eurostar? The numbers making more local cross-Channel journeys are simply not enough to justify optimising a set-up specifically for their needs. How many here have ever made a journey whose endpoints were both between London and Lille? And how often are/were such journeys undertaken? Given the geography of Northern France why would you make such a journey without a car?

Personally, while I hardly ever use Eurostar personally my Missus does and her experience is that it is eye-watering expensive and unreliable. Late trains, cancelled trains - - all for a fare well north of £300 return if you don't book the thing weeks in advance. On the very rare occasions I've needed to go to Brussels or Paris I've flown - still quicker and usually far cheaper and a much better chance of arriving when you're supposed to.

 

[lawried123]

It was normally a Dennis Dart SLF rather than a coach. Connex did indeed used to run an hourly Eurotunnel bus service for foot passengers. It ran from Ashford railway station to Calais railway station with stops in Cheriton and Coquelles too outside the Eurotunnel terminals. It had a very good frequency being hourly from early morning to late evening.

I remember they had a fleet of Dennis Dart SLF buses as the regular vehicles on it. I recall the fares were £10.00 single or £15.00 return which even back then was fairly good value. Unfortunately it only lasted for just over six or seven months. It was very short lived and i remember it was quite poorly advertised too.

Years ago I did a trip on this from London to Calais with the train journey from London to Ashford and then the bus to Calais. I seem to recall the fare from London was about £30 return and when I asked the ticket office at London whether I can use privs on the train to Ashford, to my surprise he said I could use it for the whole journey. So a return trip London to Calais cost me all of £7.50. I call that a bargain.

 

[Egg Centric]

I see the naysayers' point about public transport at one end or t'other but this seems to be missing that many people who go on holiday would like to drive in the UK but once abroad put their feet up and take the train/other public transport. Unfortunately that's not practicable atm because Ebssfleet/Ashford are shut and they probably didn't know about them anyway. Something where you could go along, park your car FOR FREE (important) and jump on a train to the continent - be very handy that. It would need some sort of useful interchange with the French network at Calais though.

Basically what I'm saying is that ignoring the finances, this would be absolutely brilliant. I will defer to everyone else's' analysis about what happens when you bring them in, but the aim would be to make the French pay for it somehow (even Reform voters should be fine with that) since the infrastructure would be at their end - which makes it different to usual speculative threads.

 

[mike57]

A few thoughts:

I dont think a foot passenger coach on the car train would work due to the problems in foot passengers getting from the to and from the current road connecting points

Calais Frethun is not well served for onward travel.

My thought, could a low cost operator offer an Ashford - Lille service, you have the security infrastructure at both locations, OK so it would need staffing up. In term of connections you have a good service from Ashford into London, as well as a service to the Sussex coast, so it might open up some new markets. Lille offers a range of connections to Belgium and France, including through TGV's right down to the south of France as well as the SW and Brittany, not the clockface timetables we are used to, but enough journeys to be useful.

The question is would it profitable, as I dont believe any government either side of the channel is going to subsidise international travel. In term of rolling stock, something similar to the double decker Ouigo TGVs, a one class, no food, but adequate luggage space offering for what would be just over an hours journey. In terms of market it would need to undercut Eurostar prices even when taking into account onwards travel at each end to be attractive, but maybe could offer more of a walk up and go service at reasonable fares, unlike Eurostar, which at short notice can be eye watering.

 

[Trainbike46]

Running a bus/coach service that does something like (Ashford-)Folkestone-Chunnel-Calais (ville+frethun+city centre) could serve a local connectivity need, and wouldn't be too expensive to operate, but I would expect it to require a subsidy if not a large one.

However, it would follow a similar connectivity need to the ferry for passenger service, so it may be cheaper to make an agreement with one or multiple of the ferry companies to take for passengers on more or all crossings

Neither case would require any infrastructure work

 

[Alpine Rider]

Not sure anything extra is needed.
Foot Passengers can still travel on numerous daily crossings from Dover operated by P&O - whilst I understand that some ferry operators have chosen to stop carrying foot passengers - the P&O services are likely to contunue as they can be very busy and profitable with foot passengers and cyclists especially in summer month as they only add marginally to their operation costs but usefully fill empty space in their vessels.

Meanwhile vehicle capacity on ferries is actually falling as the ever increasing size of cars and trucks means they actually carry fewer people than previously, and as a result are charging higher prices per vehicle.

Dover port is also a lot easier to get to by bus/rail than either eurotunnel terminal especially if you are not in a vehicle. Eurotunnel still operate their bicycle shuttle minibus & trailer from Holiday Inn in Folkestone and drop off in Cite de Europe.

 

[yorksrob]

To be honest, I would rather have actual International services back at Ashford International & Ebbsfleet than this. This to me, is rather inefficient as a solution, with buses having to be threaded into the equation at Folkestone and Calais at both sides.

International services resuming in Kent should be in the form of trains stopping at Ashford International or Ebbsfleet, providing locals an opportunity to explore the continent via train (through leaving the car at home) without needing to go up to London on HS1 congesting St Pancras and for those from the continent (primarily France, Belgium, the Netherlands) can visit Kent on a day trip to places such as Canterbury from Ashford.

Further benefits being that Ashford and Ebbsfleet act as a Motorway Gateway station for those who don't want to deal with London's expensive hotels or taking luggage on the Underground. I also wish that, as part of the terms of HS1, the withdrawal of Kent International services could never happen again if International services resumed.

Depends on the cost of fares really. E* aren't particularly cheap and passengers need alternatives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on the cost of fares really. E* aren't particularly cheap and passengers need alternatives.

The alternatives are called easyJet, Ryanair and Flixbus.

 

[yorksrob]

There's a usable service from Calais but it's probably not what you'd call good.

On weekdays there are departures towards Lille at:

• 0531 (Ville)
• 0607 (Frethun)
• 0632 (Ville)
• 0733 (Ville)
• 0735 (Frethun)
• 0829 (Frethun)
• 0833 (Ville)
• 0840 (Ville, change at Hazebrouck)
• 0900 (Ville, change at Dunkerque)
• 1008 (Frethun)
• 1032 (Ville)
• 1133 (Ville)
• 1227 (Frethun)
• 1245 (Ville, change at Hazebrouck)
• 1302 (Ville, change at Dunkerque)
• 1433 (Ville)
• 1531 (Ville)
• 1544 (Ville, change at Hazebrouck)
• 1549 (Ville, change at Dunkerque)
• 1632 (Ville)
• 1716 (Frethun)
• 1730 (Ville)
• 1807 (Frethun)
• 1831 (Ville)
• 1904 (Ville, change at Frethun, dep 1918)
• 1932 (Ville)
• 2030 (Frethun)
• 2032 (Ville)

Important though that there's a €2 supplement (sometimes less if paid for by purchasing the GV Inclus or high speed inclusive tariff) charged for the departures from Frethun or in those cases the connecting trains from Dunkerque. I don't think many people would bother with a change of train for a journey like this either. And Frethun station is a little bit of an inhospitable location.

A regional style bus service absolutely couldn't connect onto those last two departures from each station - the risk of missing the connection is too big. But as you can see, until approximately 1930 there is a sensible, albeit not frequent, service. So a last departure from Folkestone by 1500 and a good choice of very early morning departures would probably actually enable some pretty good connections.

The downside to this idea is that Folkestone West only has arrivals from Ashford International and stations via Folkestone Central that early in the morning. The first train from London isn't until 0759 so a bus at say 0825 may be the first one for that. So you may end up with say 0725 - 1425 departures every hour but not much more, and the 0725 would only have a connection into it from as far west as Tonbridge. The package could optionally include the TER tarif standard from Calais to Lille which can be used on any direct service, subject to the supplement if using the high speed service from Frethun.

Thanks. I must admit, my knowledge of train services on the French side is limited.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

The alternatives are called easyJet, Ryanair and Flixbus.

Well, I prefer to avoid flying. My idea would have more opportunity to use train services at either end.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

Fine for journeys to London but many local links are only hourly. And for a shire county in the wealthier corner of England Kent has decidedly poor bus services. Though the Pas-de-Calais region is even worse.


Or could it be that most foot passengers of old are now much better served by Eurostar? The numbers making more local cross-Channel journeys are simply not enough to justify optimising a set-up specifically for their needs. How many here have ever made a journey whose endpoints were both between London and Lille? And how often are/were such journeys undertaken? Given the geography of Northern France why would you make such a journey without a car?

You can get all over Kent comparatively easily by train. The only "weak" link is the hourly marshlink service that could struggle for capacity at times.

 

[izvor]

You can get all over Kent comparatively easily by train. The only "weak" link is the hourly marshlink service that could struggle for capacity at times.

I would add Ashford - Dover to that. 2tph is inadequate, just witness the number of pax doing the "Ashford shuffle" every hour when the Javelins divide and they scrabble along the platform to the front unit. Or, on the opposite half-hour, change onto the stopper (at least it's usually cross-platform now).

Are they all headed for the P&O ferry from Dover? Anyone have usage stats for foot pax? I can't imagine they (and their baggage) are all headed for the tourist charms of Folkestone and Dover!

 

[Mikey C]

A shuttle bus between Ashford and Calais sound quite appealing, though a major issue is that Calais isn't an especially attractive destination, of the sort to encourage lots of people in East Kent to hop across for a day out.

Previously people took day trips across the channel to Calais fill their car boots with booze and cheese, rather than because it was an especially nice place.

 

[Class73Electro]

Not sure anything extra is needed.
Foot Passengers can still travel on numerous daily crossings from Dover operated by P&O - whilst I understand that some ferry operators have chosen to stop carrying foot passengers - the P&O services are likely to contunue as they can be very busy and profitable with foot passengers and cyclists especially in summer month as they only add marginally to their operation costs but usefully fill empty space in their vessels.

Meanwhile vehicle capacity on ferries is actually falling as the ever increasing size of cars and trucks means they actually carry fewer people than previously, and as a result are charging higher prices per vehicle.

Dover port is also a lot easier to get to by bus/rail than either eurotunnel terminal especially if you are not in a vehicle. Eurotunnel still operate their bicycle shuttle minibus & trailer from Holiday Inn in Folkestone and drop off in Cite de Europe.

Not really. Only P&O offer foot pax services, and I believe that's limited to very few (maybe 2 or 3) crossings

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really. Only P&O offer foot pax services, and I believe that's limited to very few (maybe 2 or 3) crossings

It's three, 0945, 1340 and 1640 from Dover, 0950, 1500 and 1900 from Calais.

(Corrected, the morning one didn't show up on my search originally)

 

[Class73Electro]

It's three, 0945, 1340 and 1640 from Dover, 0950, 1500 and 1900 from Calais.

(Corrected, the morning one didn't show up on my search originally)

Ouch, definitely poor times!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ouch, definitely poor times!

At least a day trip is possible with those times. When I couldn't see the 09xx ones (the awful booking engine doesn't seem to like displaying all three properly) I thought it was deliberately timed that you couldn't!

I'd agree it's pretty poor given that all you need to do to accommodate it is to have one member of staff drive a minibus back and forth. Customs processing etc is done by way of the facilities provided for coach passengers, so there's no additional stuff there. Demand is low, but covering minimum wage for more departures wouldn't seem swingeing, a few bookings would pay that.

 

[zwk500]

Demand is low, but covering minimum wage for more departures wouldn't seem swingeing, a few bookings would pay that.

Given P&O's recent actions, expecting them to do anything that might impact the margins is asking a lot.

Do Getlink have any spare seats on the Lorry shuttles? Otherwise the best that might be available is for somebody to run a minibus from Folkestone West to Calais Ville as a pre-booked shuttle.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do Getlink have any spare seats on the Lorry shuttles? Otherwise the best that might be available is for somebody to run a minibus from Folkestone West to Calais Ville as a pre-booked shuttle.

I think there would be two problems with that - firstly I suspect they are probably only insured to carry lorry drivers plus any assistants and secondly the lounge car capacity is set to pretty much be filled with the lorry drivers, so where would a minibus load of additional people sit?

 

[SynthD]

The London to Amsterdam results at flixbus.com show departures at 8:30, 10, 10 again tonight. All of them stop both sides of the channel. Is there a reason they don’t directly advertise or even sell this (Dover to Dunkirk) option? Lack of demand is my only thought.

 

[Trainbike46]

It's three, 0945, 1340 and 1640 from Dover, 0950, 1500 and 1900 from Calais.

(Corrected, the morning one didn't show up on my search originally)

Adding extra departures to this would likely be the cheapest option. Ideally, foot passenger tickets would be available on the 6.15, 8.15, 9.45, 11.30, 13.40, 15.05, 16.40, 18.50, and 20.45 departures. As you say, it wouldn't be expensive to provide.

The London to Amsterdam results at flixbus.com show departures at 8:30, 10, 10 again tonight. All of them stop both sides of the channel. Is there a reason they don’t directly advertise or even sell this (Dover to Dunkirk) option? Lack of demand is my only thought.

it could well be that flixbus would rather sell long-distance tickets, and selling many short hops across the channel would potentially crowd-out more lucrative passengers?

 

[zwk500]

I think there would be two problems with that - firstly I suspect they are probably only insured to carry lorry drivers plus any assistants and secondly the lounge car capacity is set to pretty much be filled with the lorry drivers, so where would a minibus load of additional people sit?

sorry if I wasn't clear, the minibus would be operating through the tourist shuttle if there wasn't space on the lorry driver's coach.

 

[Trainlog]

Depends on the cost of fares really. E* aren't particularly cheap and passengers need alternatives.

True, but I am looking on with great interest if one of the Italian operators can be able to provide a service at Ashford International. Hopefully, with competition the prices should be better if Eurostar also decided to resume services at Ashford International but this is more theoretical than reality.

 

[signed]

As you say, it wouldn't be expensive to provide.

I don't know about this one, you need a member of staff (that may be allocated elsewhere when there isn't a foot passenger departure), a bus driver and run a bus for additional hours, on both side which isn't cheap (of course, it would be much better if foot passengers could self-embark, like bycicles (I never understood what is the reasoning behind that))

 

[Stephen42]

The London to Amsterdam results at flixbus.com show departures at 8:30, 10, 10 again tonight. All of them stop both sides of the channel. Is there a reason they don’t directly advertise or even sell this (Dover to Dunkirk) option? Lack of demand is my only thought.

The flixbus website has a stop list for each city: Dover, Calais and Dunkirk. For Dover they are within ferry terminals or entry points to them. Calais is much the same aside from a truck stop listed as PreUK check. That is accessible to cars with no public transport, but looks a fallback for those without travel documents than a location that would welcome frequent drop offs or pick ups. Dunkirk has a separate coach stop listed but no options given for London.

To sell the short hops would need to add stops somewhere more useful increasing journey time and cost. The cost to provide the service would be the same as the full route as wouldn't sell many London - Dover or Calais - Paris tickets that match up with those doing the short hops. They probably wouldn't forecast a lot of demand for such a route as a result.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

It's three, 0945, 1340 and 1640 from Dover, 0950, 1500 and 1900 from Calais.

(Corrected, the morning one didn't show up on my search originally)

It is not worth attempting a foot passenger crossing now, for there is no longer a bus from Dover Priory station and you have to disembark from the transfer bus from the terminal to the ferry to traipse through border control - previously it was done on the bus. At the Calais end foot passengers are the last to disembark and there is no guarantee of a bus to Calais Ville station - otherwise it is a miserable walk. One of the superior 'Spirit' ferries has also been withdrawn - Spirit of Britain - which has been sold to Irish Ferries.

 

[Trainbike46]

I don't know about this one, you need a member of staff (that may be allocated elsewhere when there isn't a foot passenger departure), a bus driver and run a bus for additional hours, on both side which isn't cheap (of course, it would be much better if foot passengers could self-embark, like bycicles (I never understood what is the reasoning behind that))

There already is a bus, so all you need is one driver on each side, plus potentially one person doing check-in (though potentially that could be the driver as well, especially if passenger numbers are low).
Compared to the alternatives, such as stopping a Eurostar at Ashford, or running buses up and down between Calais and Folkestone through the channel tunnel, that is very low cost.

 

[Nottingham59]

Eurotunnel still operate their bicycle shuttle minibus & trailer from Holiday Inn in Folkestone and drop off in Cite de Europe.

Can this service be used by members of the public who don't have a bicycle? If so, problem solved; if not, then easily fixed by simple administrative action.

 

[Flange Squeal]

That said, I suppose someone could run a road coach service from (say) Folkestone West to the station at Calais. You could even run it through to Le Touquet for maximum tourist appeal.

One potential downside of just "someone" doing it as a commercial venture is that, unless they can do a deal in conjunction with Le Shuttle, then the costs of putting a coach on Le Shuttle isn't cheap, so you'd need to stimulate quite a bit of demand. 2025's coach fares are £715 rising to £850/£1200/POA (Price on Application) around many weekends or holidays. These rise to £735, £885, £1235 or POA for 2026. And these are just one-way singles!