Latest Which? passenger satisfaction survey released

[Bungle73]

We've just been experiencing massive amounts of weather-related disruption. I'm quite sure that has skewed the results,

 

[westv]

c2c have an almost-new fleet, and a network that's very short in terms of route miles and has little interaction with other operators.

It's not too long ago in the past when LTS (as it was then)was dubbed the misery line.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It's not too long ago in the past when LTS (as it was then)was dubbed the misery line.

Thats like the Uckfield line. Had an appalling service under Connex especially after the Cowden crash. However this lead to fares being held.

Southern come in, improve it dramatically, new stock etc, but cant increase the prices to reflect the improvements due to capping rules!

 

[user15681]

Cue unpopular opinion... I commute and I have no problem with Southeastern.

Since October 2013, I have only been delayed by 30 minutes or more on less than 10 occasions (given that I've probably made over 150 journeys). I have no big problem with how much I pay, even when considering the alternatives. It's cheaper than driving up, it's cheaper than the rent of living in London and is much more flexible than the coach. As for cleanliness, again no problem. After all, who's to blame for rubbish? Not the TOC. I've never had a short formed train, although this is probably because I use the Mainline and not the Metro services.

The one problem I have is their communication which lacks sometimes.

 

[87015]

c2c have an almost-new fleet, and a network that's very short in terms of route miles and has little interaction with other operators.

But in fairness one which in the peak is very intensively worked with no room for any error. 20tph in the high peak over two tracks with varied stopping patterns for the first 14miles and then into just four platforms is very much comparable with anything else into London. The Ockendon single line is worked to capacity (very few single lines with through rather than dead end services to London so much harder to manage) and has a stretching 71/74 units required. They have problems in the peak and it unwinds very, very quickly...

 

[Moonshot]

Surveys aside....if UK rail was that poor, then how does it explain the growth it has had in the last 12 years or so?. I myself " mix it " with the passengers every day, and I just dont see the evidence of what Which Magazine is portraying. The vast majority simply treat rail travel as a means to an end, and imo, if they dont like it the solution is simple.....change jobs or move house.

 

[87015]

Are the TOCs aware of when the NPS people will be out on their patch?

Yes times and dates known miles in advance - and things are put in place for those times where possible!

 

[PG]

Surveys aside....if UK rail was that poor, then how does it explain the growth it has had in the last 12 years or so?. I myself " mix it " with the passengers every day, and I just dont see the evidence of what Which Magazine is portraying. The vast majority simply treat rail travel as a means to an end, and imo, if they dont like it the solution is simple.....change jobs or move house.

"Which?" is the magazine of the Consumers Association and AFAIK they are self financing, i.e in order to survive they have to sell their magazine - just like the print media have to sell newspapers

Yes times and dates known miles in advance - and things are put in place for those times where possible!

Seems the railway is like other industries - always get notice of inspectors coming in my line of work, cue management hurriedly seeking to remedy things they've been notified of (but ignored) ages ago!

 

[DelayRepay]

I also love the way Which scores are significantly lower than Passenger Focus. It's amazing what happens when you ask for your "overall perception" rather than limiting the question to "the journey you've just taken", as Passenger Focus do. The National Passenger Survey is designed to get the answers that ATOC want, asking about overall perceptions is far more realistic. I know this from my previous commute from Newcastle to Durham; the XC train I took was normally late, dirty and overcrowded but the one day the Passenger Focus questioners were on board it miraculously wasn't.

I see ATOC are going on the attack about methodology, but it's the same methodology Which use for all other commercial sectors. You don't see such shocking results elsewhere, not even with mobile phone companies.

I think there are arguments either way. Today on FCC I've had two journeys from hell - 2 hours late to work this morning and an hour late home this evening. This changes my "overall perception" of FCC but the chances of being asked to complete a survey are very remote. In fact, in five years of commuting I've never been asked to complete a survey. I have been asked to complete the Passenger Focus survey twice, both times were on leisure trips during the middle of the day when the train wasn't busy and was running to time. Do Passenger Focus actually survey people on busy commuter trains where you can't get a seat? Would they still carry out their survey if the service was disrupted or cancelled?

Like I say, pros and cons to both methods but I don't think the TOCs should simply dismiss the Which? survey. They should be asking themselves why their passengers hate them so much.

 

[Uzair]

I'm surprised South West Trains scored so low, and even more surprised they scored lower than Northern!

 

[EM2]

Do Passenger Focus actually survey people on busy commuter trains where you can't get a seat? Would they still carry out their survey if the service was disrupted or cancelled?

Yes, and yes. I've signed in their researchers enough times

 

[All Line Rover]

The last time I filled in a NPS survey, there was no way to convey the actual problems I faced. If your problem doesn't fit in one of their categories of things they ask about, they assume you are satisfied!

I agree that the methodology is flawed.

For example, if the train is delayed, you may decide not to travel and therefore your opinion is not heard.

The train being surveyed has, quite obviously, more 'staff' on board, and therefore you are likely to rate staffing levels and passenger safety more highly.

I also wonder, although I have no evidence to prove this, whether Passenger Focus' surveyors are actually impartial as to the services they select. Do they really wait 3 hours to board a delayed train that they intended to survey? Do they really worked their way through a commuter train (or the first off-peak intercity train of the evening) with packed gangways and isles?
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Yes, and yes. I've signed in their researchers enough times

Interesting. How? How do you find passengers which intended to travel on a cancelled train?

 

[DelayRepay]

Interesting. How? How do you find passengers which intended to travel on a cancelled train?

I wonder if they would carry out their survey on a rail replacement bus, if the train was cancelled?

 

[All Line Rover]

I did love SouthEastern's comments: "you don't want to go to the office and don't want to pay to get there". It can't have anything to do with the fact that the staff on HighSpeed are obstreperous and the "classic" lines have been slowed down to the point of uselessness.

I'm not sure (all of) those using the HighSpeed services are jumping for joy. Some of the fares are astronomical. For example, Ebbsfleet to Stratford (40 miles return by car) is over £30 return (more than £1/minute!), whilst Watford Junction to London - a similar distance and similar journey time - is half the price.

 

[Carlisle]

I'm surprised South West Trains scored so low, and even more surprised they scored lower than Northern!

Probably many and varied reasons but two off the top of my head would be despite large fare increases many services are slower over the same distance compared to some years ago unlike Chiltern mainline for example and some stations eg Beaulieu Road have a much reduced service than years gone by

 

[EM2]

How? How do you find passengers which intended to travel on a cancelled train?

You ask them...
You don't specifically ask 'were you intending to take that cancelled train?', you ask if they want to fill in an NPS form. But the point I was making that they don't stop, just because it's peak time or there's disruption.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Surveys aside....if UK rail was that poor, then how does it explain the growth it has had in the last 12 years or so?. I myself " mix it " with the passengers every day, and I just dont see the evidence of what Which Magazine is portraying. The vast majority simply treat rail travel as a means to an end, and imo, if they dont like it the solution is simple.....change jobs or move house.

As a whole most passengers accept their lot on the day. Occasionally frustration boils over, and the general lack of communication riles. It was stunningly obvious last week when on the South Eastern services to Tunbridge Wells that there is a distinct lack of announcements compared to Southern services. Even with the disruption on South Eastern on Friday nights there were no announcements on the train about where to change and no announcements at Tonbridge.

Southern on the other hand have an endless supply of announcements, and dare I say on occasion too many.

But whilst passengers may remain quiet on the day if given a chance to comment they will comment and of course people are more inclined to complain than they are to praise. Only need to look at what happened on Friday when Southern announced on Twitter they had people giving away chocolates at stations. There were a flurry of tweets telling them to spend the money on trains etc. Reality is it would make no difference to the trains and most commuters that received the chocolates would have been grateful.

 

[fowler9]

In 16 odd years of commuting and even longer traveling for leisure I've never been surveyed. Despite some of Northerns rolling stock being a bit long in the tooth I quite like the service I get in general.

 

[Moonshot]

As a whole most passengers accept their lot on the day. Occasionally frustration boils over, and the general lack of communication riles. It was stunningly obvious last week when on the South Eastern services to Tunbridge Wells that there is a distinct lack of announcements compared to Southern services. Even with the disruption on South Eastern on Friday nights there were no announcements on the train about where to change and no announcements at Tonbridge.

Southern on the other hand have an endless supply of announcements, and dare I say on occasion too many.

But whilst passengers may remain quiet on the day if given a chance to comment they will comment and of course people are more inclined to complain than they are to praise. Only need to look at what happened on Friday when Southern announced on Twitter they had people giving away chocolates at stations. There were a flurry of tweets telling them to spend the money on trains etc. Reality is it would make no difference to the trains and most commuters that received the chocolates would have been grateful.

Maybe so.....and of course " twitter " rants are more than likely from people who seem to revel in the fact that technology allows them this privilidge - and in fact you only have to look at the TOCs own facebook pages to see the same names popping up time and time again when having a moan.

However, I cannot argue with the fact that people vote with their feet when dissatisfied - which would seem contradictory to the evidence from Which. Passenger numbers were declining in the days of BR - so what ( if at all ) changes to the public perception of UK rail are now evident to fuel the growth?

 

[Bald Rick]

I must look surveyable, I get asked every time, sometimes more than once. Always at stations though, never on the train.

Alas, I always have to say no, as a member of staff who is scrupulously honest.

Interesting factual snippet - NPS is apparently the largest exercise in repeat consumer research in the UK.

 

[fowler9]

Maybe so.....and of course " twitter " rants are more than likely from people who seem to revel in the fact that technology allows them this privilidge - and in fact you only have to look at the TOCs own facebook pages to see the same names popping up time and time again when having a moan.

However, I cannot argue with the fact that people vote with their feet when dissatisfied - which would seem contradictory to the evidence from Which. Passenger numbers were declining in the days of BR - so what ( if at all ) changes to the public perception of UK rail are now evident to fuel the growth?

I think some of the increased passenger numbers are down to more people needing to travel further to work. More offices being out of town. Population growth etc. When my train commuting miles shot up in 2012 it certainly wasn't because I thought the quality of the service had got much better.

 

[Andrewlong]

I'm surprised South West Trains scored so low, and even more surprised they scored lower than Northern!

I use the Reading to Watwrloo line 3 days per week and although it's reliable - the 3+2 seating is cramped, lacks tables and any sort of Wifi. SWT have been promising longer trains for years and yet I still am waiting to see the fruits of their investments.

 

[hassaanhc]

Personally I'd be interested to know GA would look if it were split into being surveyed as what used to be FGE and Anglia. Same goes with FGW, I'd be interested to see how their results for the West of England services are when taken separately from London suburban.

I also agree with Southeastern, commuters do always seem to be in a bad mood and like to make as much of a fuss as possible about everything.

Would I be right in saying that FGW have quite a severe overcrowding problem on the suburban services because their units are only 2 or 3 coaches and they don't have enough to make them longer? I know the half-hourly service that stops at Southall is badly packed during the peaks but I don't know whether it applies to other destinations as well.

I would kinda agree with that, judging by the fuss and sarcastic comments they make on the TOC Twitter feeds when cancellations/delays happen, expecting things to run 100% perfectly all the time :roll:. Even making a fuss over minor things like the guard/driver not making an announcement immediately when stopped for anything more than a minute (of course they could be busy on the radio or something). But then again it seems like human nature to remember negative experiences more than positive ones :neutral:.

strange how the majority of the poorly performing TOCs are those with the most intensively worked commuter routes - could it be that people don’t really like going to their work and transfer their unhappiness onto something else?

Maybe they're just unlucky , I use SWT about 2-4 times a week between Hounslow and Waterloo and I've rarely encountered problems. Only once last week I recall a fairly significant one, which was a 16 minute late train and even then I managed to get lucky and get another train immediately because of how the services run (Hounslow Loop in opposite direction), which wouldn't have happened if it was the next train 15 minutes later (loop frequency every 30 minutes ).

I use the Reading to Watwrloo line 3 days per week and although it's reliable - the 3+2 seating is cramped, lacks tables and any sort of Wifi. SWT have been promising longer trains for years and yet I still am waiting to see the fruits of their investments.

All of your comments about the 458's will remain the same once the 450's get introduced there, of course with less comfortable seats! The Hounslow/Windsor lines will get the longer trains first, should have all been introduced by now but the project is running very late.
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Southern on the other hand have an endless supply of announcements, and dare I say on occasion too many.

ding ding ding "East Croydon this is East Croydon. The train now approaching..."

 

[broadgage]

Yes times and dates known miles in advance - and things are put in place for those times where possible!

That sums up my concerns.
I have long suspected that the services on which surveys are carried out are NOT random and are NOT representative.
The above post would seem to confirm my suspicions that the TOCs know well in advance what services will be surveyed, and that "arrangements are put in place for those times where possible"

Some years ago, new shorter trains were introduced on my local line (4 or 6 car networkers replacing 8 car slam door trains)
There were many complaints about overcrowding on the shorter trains, to which Connex replied that "surveys show satisfaction"
8 car trains were provided on survey days ! I dont think that 8 car networkers were even seen otherwise on that service.

Likewise when Waterloo to Exeter services were shortened from 8 car loco hauled trains to 3 car DMUs, there where many complaints about lack of space on the new shorter trains.
On survey days, a 6 car train was supplied, with seats for nearly everyone.
The survey "about the journey that you are making today" would therefore show that most passengers got a seat, when this was untrue on other days.

 

[GodAtum]

Sample size:

Its third annual survey of 7,400 regular train passengers compiled scores based on passengers’ overall satisfaction with a company and whether they would be likely to recommend it.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/ne...ain-operators-named-shamed.html#ixzz2tf9aVXAB
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

And a pic:

 

[Muzer]

Strange how SWT have the most reliable fleet (one of the few things that TOCs actually control...), and (subjectively!) have some of the best maintained fleet in terms of cleanliness as well as mechanically, and yet are apparently the fourth-worst TOC. That alone makes me doubt the effectiveness of this survey.

 

[IanXC]

That sums up my concerns.
I have long suspected that the services on which surveys are carried out are NOT random and are NOT representative.
The above post would seem to confirm my suspicions that the TOCs know well in advance what services will be surveyed, and that "arrangements are put in place for those times where possible"

That's strange. My experience of receiving an NPS survey to fill in, on both occasions was from inside the gateline at a major station. Once at Leeds and once at Kings Cross. It'd be difficult for all the TOCs serving these stations to make arrangements for all their trains that day, surely?

 

[Tetchytyke]

c2c have an almost-new fleet, and a network that's very short in terms of route miles and has little interaction with other operators.

SouthEastern have even newer trains, and a network that is just as self-enclosed as c2c, at least on HighSpeed.

The trouble is that HighSpeed fares are astronomical, and the "classic" fares have been allowed to rise on a different formula to the rest of the country too. Not to mention that SouthEastern have deliberately slowed down many of the "classic" express trains to try and entice people on to HighSpeed.

A fair bit of that is Government policy, I'm sure, but SouthEastern have their name on the door so get the blame.

However, I cannot argue with the fact that people vote with their feet when dissatisfied - which would seem contradictory to the evidence from Which. Passenger numbers were declining in the days of BR - so what ( if at all ) changes to the public perception of UK rail are now evident to fuel the growth?

People want to vote with their feet when they're dissatisfied, but there are precious few alternatives. Driving into London and parking in the centre is simply not an option- there are very few all-day car parks, even leaving aside the cost- and we're starting to see that in provincial cities too.

This partly fuels the resentment- people are paying a fortune for a sub-standard service, but they do not have any realistic choice in the matter. SouthEastern were almost right to compare train fares to council tax- people have to pay that too, regardless of how crap the local council are.

 

[ainsworth74]

Strange how SWT have the most reliable fleet (one of the few things that TOCs actually control..)

Though of course SWTs Desiro fleet is maintained by Siemens rather than SWT themsevles

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I use the Reading to Watwrloo line 3 days per week and although it's reliable - the 3+2 seating is cramped, lacks tables and any sort of Wifi. SWT have been promising longer trains for years and yet I still am waiting to see the fruits of their investments.

'lacks tables'....I'm sure that I have read in the past that 'research' carried out by TOCs indicates that passengers don't mind the lack of tables on many routes, or that it is a major gripe. It certainly would be very high on my list of complaints, and those TOCS that have removed tables would be my least favourite.
However, presumably removing table seats provides more seats overall, I'm sure that someone can confirm this? Anecdotally.....I see for myself that many passengers on ATW make a beeline for them.
Lack of Wifi...how many TOCS provide free Wifi...do any?