Latest RAIB report - Newcastle Central

[Starmill]

It's disappointing more wasn't made despite the hint of TPE using self dispatch on a known risky platform for financial reasons. Platform staff are available at the location to mitigate the risk but they elected not to pay for them and have been caught cutting corners in this area before (Manchester Airport , Lime St etc).

Do you mean incidents that took place there, or staff dispatch? RA indicators are used at Manchester Airport, so all trains are dispatched by TPE staff!

I have to agree that I find 155 doors very scary when you hear lots of them slam in succession!

 

[LowLevel]

They attempted to remove dispatch staff at the Airport and go self dispatch. The ORR on receipt of complaints (whistle blowers?) decided they'd fudged the assessment and the new self dispatch system was unsafe so forced them to put the dispatchers back. Liverpool Lime Street was another one though they claim the dispatchers were maintained as a 'commercial' agreement was reached with Northern rather than a safety one.

I have no faith in company risk assessments as a result. Another fine one you can find in CIRAS archive is where EMT introduced self dispatch at Loughborough for 15x where it was discovered most of the safety mitigations noted in the risk assessment didn't actually exist at the time. That got binned and they were made to do it properly (self dispatch was suspended there for quite a while).

They're all done to achieve a predetermined result regardless of cutting costs over safety.

 

[Wolfie]

Both the train designers and TPE were aware of the problem with the doors but did little about it.

I guess then that this must be a Bombardier product.... no wait, it is a Siemens product but there are so many on this forum who thinks that the sun shines out of their Germanic rear-end and that only the (Canadian-owned) Bombardier or (French-owned) Alstom have product issues. Frankly this is far worse than a few control buttons falling off...

I'm afraid the willingness of some on this forum to blame passengers or society at large for the faults of the railway industry astounds me.

Too damn right! The comment applies both to operators and cosntructors!
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I'm not sure of another train whereby if you put your hand in the door the door wouldn't re-open, with the exception of pacers, sprinters (?) and HSTs/MK3s (for obvious reasons) the rest all seem to have adequate safety mechanisms. If that safety mechanism is faulty then that train shouldn't be in service. As the passenger is also a user of the Metro they obviously took it that all train doors bounce back open whether they were right to think that or not. You also can't blame it on idiocy as you don't what they needed to be on the train for, depending on what it was adrenaline may have kicked in and she had no real control over whether she was going to hold the door or not.

If a child was to get caught in the door because the guard didn't re-do any checks their would be all hell let loose and the TOC likely given a hefty fine and the guard sacked. But this was an adult and so nobody gives a toss, the guard is still working in the same role and from what I've heard was sent to do 1 weeks training and to me that just says that fTPE don't care. This was just rumour from a member of TPE staff at Newcastle so could indeed be false but I doubt it's far from the truth.

My bold

This rolling stock is a member of the Desiro family. I would be unsurprised if there was a similar issue with all members of that train family given the modular nature of much modern rolling stock design.....

 

[Tetchytyke]

This rolling stock is a member of the Desiro family. I would be unsurprised if there was a similar issue with all members of that train family given the modular nature of much modern rolling stock design.....

And before the Desiro too. The 333s came equipped with auto-close on the doors, when they'd been open for a set period of time. And it'd have been useful too, especially in winter, if Siemens had bothered to install obstacle detectors. They didn't so it had to be disabled.

 

[northwichcat]

Not sure. Would you expect a lift door to close on your hand?

Indeed. She probably thought it would prevent the doors from closing so in doing that she presumably thought the worst thing that can happen is she delays the train by 30 seconds. How many automated doors (not just on trains) do not start to reopen when they detect something preventing them from closing properly?
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And before the Desiro too. The 333s came equipped with auto-close on the doors, when they'd been open for a set period of time. And it'd have been useful too, especially in winter, if Siemens had bothered to install obstacle detectors. They didn't so it had to be disabled.

332s and 333s were a joint product between Siemens and CAF but Siemens are responsible for maintenance.

 

[jon0844]

Siemens doesn't have a get out of jail card simply because Bombardier generally make shoddy products, or have poor quality control. Or anyone else for that matter.

I do think Bombardier missed a trick on the new Victoria line trains, with a rather poor light on one side of the inner wall that flashes with the hustle alarm and not considering having the floor lights change to flash red to signify danger. I'm sure I've been on trains with such red warning lights either here or abroad, and things like that could help prevent people trying to board.

Do any UK trains have such features? Prevention is always better than cure.

Although there is always the stupidity factor that no risk assessment can account for.

 

[hassaanhc]

And before the Desiro too. The 333s came equipped with auto-close on the doors, when they'd been open for a set period of time. And it'd have been useful too, especially in winter, if Siemens had bothered to install obstacle detectors. They didn't so it had to be disabled.

Auto close is a feature of the Desiros here in London, and if you enter when the alarm starts and/or door starts closing on auto close ,then it reopens the door. But I'm not aware of what happens when the door close button has been pressed by the guard or driver.
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Siemens doesn't have a get out of jail card simply because Bombardier generally make shoddy products, or have poor quality control. Or anyone else for that matter.

I do think Bombardier missed a trick on the new Victoria line trains, with a rather poor light on one side of the inner wall that flashes with the hustle alarm and not considering having the floor lights change to flash red to signify danger. I'm sure I've been on trains with such red warning lights either here or abroad, and things like that could help prevent people trying to board.

Do any UK trains have such features? Prevention is always better than cure.

Although there is always the stupidity factor that no risk assessment can account for.

The small number of new trams on the Croydon Tramlink have LEDs around the door, which are green when the doors are open, and turn red when the door alarm starts.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, when a driver closes the doors they don't reopen but appear to freeze. The driver either reopens or doesn't get the interlock and goes nowhere.

Now if the door can still lock, while not opening, then you have big problems.

With the auto close for the air con, and Bombardier trains do the same like the 379s, I assume they open if there's an obstruction and so they should as they're closing unexpectedly.

 

[O L Leigh]

Bombardier units have a light beam across the doors that acts as an obstacle detector. If the beam is broken the door won't close or if closing it will reopen. If obstructed for too long (ramps are the worst offenders for this) the door will go into a fault status and remain open until closed by the driver/guard or locally on the door buttons.

O L Leigh

 

[LowLevel]

Standard platform staff move that for loading multiple wheelchairs, find a handy bag or suitcase to put in front of it to stop it sending the ramp flying. I always used to tell lazy types off for just letting the door keep slamming on the ramps as it couldn't be doing either bit of kit any good!

Voyagers had a mod installed so platform staff or train crew can stop the door auto closing by operating the door open button in a certain manner which seems to work well enough.

 

[Starmill]

They attempted to remove dispatch staff at the Airport and go self dispatch. The ORR on receipt of complaints (whistle blowers?) decided they'd fudged the assessment and the new self dispatch system was unsafe so forced them to put the dispatchers back. Liverpool Lime Street was another one though they claim the dispatchers were maintained as a 'commercial' agreement was reached with Northern rather than a safety one.

I have no faith in company risk assessments as a result. Another fine one you can find in CIRAS archive is where EMT introduced self dispatch at Loughborough for 15x where it was discovered most of the safety mitigations noted in the risk assessment didn't actually exist at the time. That got binned and they were made to do it properly (self dispatch was suspended there for quite a while).

They're all done to achieve a predetermined result regardless of cutting costs over safety.

Interesting.

TPE are slightly curious when it comes to this, because I they don't seem to bother with platform staff doing dispatch except where they have no choice (Leeds, Manchester Piccadilly, and aforementioned Manchester Airport, or paying for it from Northern at Manchester Oxford Road - does anyone know what happens at Manchester Victoria? I think the Northern staff do it?).

Huddersfield is a good example, they have the platform staff there who do all of the other things platform staff do like help people on and off the train and give directions as well as security and so on, but they still do self-dispatch for all trains. I had always just considered this to be part of a policy for them rather than a money saving exercise, the staff are still there after all and they are if anything more able to help people as a result of not having to dispatch trains, but would they need to employ more of them if they did?

I agree with your sentiment about this whole issue having cobblers to do with safety and everything to do with money though, if that's what you mean.

 

[muz379]

Interesting.

TPE are slightly curious when it comes to this, because I they don't seem to bother with platform staff doing dispatch except where they have no choice (Leeds, Manchester Piccadilly, and aforementioned Manchester Airport, or paying for it from Northern at Manchester Oxford Road - does anyone know what happens at Manchester Victoria? I think the Northern staff do it?).

Your forgetting Salford central and Liverpool lime street though , they are dispatched by Northern staff there as well .

Northern staff dispatch TPE services from victoria as well .Although I think this might fall into the category of no choice with the other stations you mentioned because of RA dispatch at victoria .

 

[swt_passenger]

I would be unsurprised if there was a similar issue with all members of that train family given the modular nature of much modern rolling stock design.....

The RAIB report states that earlier Desiro UK models do not have the same issue because they do not have the electrically detected sensitive edge, but it is done with air...

 

[ModernRailways]

Just thought I'd drop this in, but there was a TPE service in platform 10 just the other day and that was in service. Dispatch seemed to be the exact same as usual (and pretty much the same way explained in the report that caused this incident), so to me right now it looks like TPE have said they will do it, but they actually won't since the RAIB can't really do anything other than recommend.

 

[edwin_m]

The RAIB report states that earlier Desiro UK models do not have the same issue because they do not have the electrically detected sensitive edge, but it is done with air...

Nothing to say that the other type of sensitive edge doesn't have the same problem.

The fundamental issue is that under certain circumstances the door can close and obtain interlock (which is the safety vital function) with somebody's arm trapped in it, and that when this happens the arm can often not be pulled out. I don't believe this could happen with traditional doors because the rubber seal was narrower and less flexible, so the door wouldn't close and interlock would not be obtained.

 

[Crossover]

Even so, the logical choice is if you are running late to head toward the nearest doors, in this case closest to the buffers & try the door release button. By running further down the platform, not only did she risk missing the doors closing, which she did, she also risked slipping or tripping and ending up underneath the train and not being seen by the train or platform crew. It's this kind of reckless behaviour that results in accidents, and trouble for the train crew regardless of any blame on their part.

It may seem obvious to us, but a passenger sees a door open and they go for it - little "danger" of it not opening, plus the opening takes a while too

Despite the train and crew arriving nearly an hour beforehand, the doors were only released 7 minutes before departure, which for a service expected to be packed meant a large number were left waiting outside. Why was this? It can only lead to unnecessary pushing and shoving to get a seat.

Opening up so close to time is unfortunately fairly normal

 

[ModernRailways]

Opening up so close to time is unfortunately fairly normal

Indeed, that is something I'm surprised hasn't caused any problems in itself.

I've often seen people watch the guard board and the driver fire up the engines and then try the button only to then have to stay on the platform for another 20 minutes because the guard is reading his paper. There has been 2 occasions that I've seen where the train has departed late because there wasn't enough time for everyone to board.

Same goes for CrossCountry too, although usually the guard opens them when they get there but the driver is usually there 5 - 10 minutes before the guard.