Late night trains and food/drink

[ComUtoR]

Morning,

When you get in a Taxi/Cab you have a direct affect on the drivers business if you leave mess/upcheck etc. They probably don't have a paid cleaner on call or at base to clean up for them either.

They are also under different legislation and they may provide specific rights to the driver to refuse access or let them place food/drink restrictions in their vehicles.

No doubt a TOC will be able to refuse carriage to any passenger. (anyone know if the Conditions of Carriage allow that ?)

I'd love to say about using bins but some of the very late trains have all the bins filled to the brim.

Personally I mostly see that the whole food/drink issue is more specific to the late night trains where alcohol is involved and although its very disgusting that people behave in such a way on a train I do see various logistical constraints. My bugbear is the Metro and Evening Standard !!

 

[DeeGee]

Vomit is a completely different matter, but I often feel that internal cleanliness of trains could be improved immeasurably with the introduction of visible bins which are large enough to contain at least one fast food package.

 

[ComUtoR]

Vomit is a completely different matter, but I often feel that internal cleanliness of trains could be improved immeasurably with the introduction of visible bins which are large enough to contain at least one fast food package.

Or we could just take our litter with us. Maybe even recycle at recycling points. ( I would support introduction of those near stations ) Or just maybe be mindful of what we take on board.

There are 8+ bins in a carriage on the trains I travel on (Southeastern) Even on a off-peak trip people still refuse to use a bin. Can't fault the TOCs for bad behaviour.

I'm sure that rolling stock and stations could be updated with better facilities.
I'm not sure what a TOC can really do to combat the late train mess. I see train cleaners walking through a train, cleaners on turnround, and even trains taken out of service or delayed for cleaning. They are currently meeting my expectations for cleaning.

I'm .... so I remember the "Keep Britain Tidy" campaign. I'm no hippy campaigner but I'm trying to do my bit. Use a bin, recycle, take my litter with me. Even with my kiddywinkles we put all our rubbish in a bag then use a bin.

 

[DeeGee]

The best way to effect sea-change in people's behaviour is to make it easier for them to do what you want.

How many people regularly recycled in the 1980s when it required a trip out in the car? How many people do it now it requires you to choose an appropriate bin from the range located at your own house?

The fact remains that if an alighting passenger cannot see where to put his rubbish, and knows that there will be no bins at the station, in a great many cases he'll leave it on the train for the cleaners to get.

I often travel by 185s from Grimsby, and it's not obvious to me where the bins are. On a 3 hour journey it's not unreasonable to expect me to eat my lunch/dinner onboard, but it's not always possible to fit rubbish in the piddling little bins provided.

Late at night, when emboldened by drink, if the opportunity to dispose of waste is not obvious it's even less likely to be used. If you don't want people to dump rubbish you must give them opportunities to dispose of it responsibly.

 

[ComUtoR]

I agree.

I travel on Southeastern and the trains have bins in every doorwell as well as some bins between seats. Other than central London stations most of the mainline stations have bins.

I do see a visibility issue as they are all clear bags and placed according to infrastructure rather than passenger convenience. There is also a security concern over bins on stations and the big wheelie style bins are always locked.

We have to find a common ground and take a joint responsibility for litter. I find that on the mainline trains (375's) there is little to no litter problems and they have less bins on board. Its the metro services that suffer the most and that is more to do with the passenger type than facilities the TOC offers.

I would firmly support a reduction of the free newspapers and force them to take responsibility to provide recycling points for newspapers.

Southeastern do ok and other than late nights the trains are usually clean. FCC seem to do a lot better but again, their passenger profiles are very different.

The TOCs are doing a good job and I have to reiterate that I have a personal responsibility to take care of my litter irrespective of what the TOC does or doesn't provide. I do take your point and do see that small improvements need to be made.

I remember standing on a platform with a woman being very vocal about station cleanliness whilst flicking her fag ash (pre the ban) onto the floor. I also hear commuters regularly complain about mess then get up and drop their Metro on seat or shove it down the side. :/

I'm a leisure traveller mostly and trains are in a good state. I teach my kids not to litter and recycle where they can. When it just isn't possible to do that then I will 100% apportion blame to the TOC. However; currently with what's provided I cannot.

 

[DeeGee]

What needs to be done with the Metro (and other newspapers), is there needs to be a rack somewhere so that people who have finished it can leave it for others to enjoy. I'm not averse to choosing a seat that has had a newspaper left on it, picking it up and reading it myself.

If I do that, should I not then do the same? Leave it for the next occupant to enjoy as well? A bit like Book Crossing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Admittedly this doesn't solve the issue in the OP's initial point.

 

[ComUtoR]

That is exactly what my ex used to say.

I do see that convenience but with the free newspapers its different. The availability of them is higher than actual take-up; evidenced by the volume left at the end of the day. Also commuter attitude is to get ticket, grab metro, dump metro. I also find it amusing that some hold back alighting as they can walk through and grab a "free" Sun (or other paper) and take it with them.

Where its a genuine drop for someone else then I'm torn between littering and decency. Some items have just become those we automatically litter with. (sweet wrappers, cigarette butts, crisp packets) and some items we tend to always use a bin. (cups, cans, fast food bags) Newspapers appear to fall into the former.

I would, as said before, support some system where you can either put your paper on a rack, deposit point, recycle point.

On a side note. Its odd how our attitudes change when getting on a train. Most would be horrified if you walked down the high-street and casually dropped your newspaper or chucked your McD's on the floor.

As to the OP... Can the TOC's issue fines for littering ? Are the guards, platform staff able to issue warnings etc ? I know smoking carries a fine but littering may be covered by railway bylaws. I will admit I have never seen any signage to say no littering. Southeastern have REO's traveling on trains quite frequently but I don't know if they ever do anything regarding litter.

 

[DeeGee]

I may be utterly mistaken, but I'm sure while I was regularly doing the Kings Cross-Grimsby trip for the football in the days before redevelopment, there were signs on the concourse explaining that there were no bins, that litter should be left and would be collected by cleaning staff.

If that really was the case, if I'm not imagining it, then it's not surprising that that understanding was carried on to the trains and became a habit.

 

[tsr]

Some FCC stock is apparently starting to have "newspaper racks" introduced, where a portion of the overhead luggage rack is assigned to store papers for someone else to read, or for the cleaners to get.

As for the Railway Byelaws, littering is an offence under Byelaw 6, but it's often unavoidable at stations without bins, so for that reason staff may ask you to breach it by instructing you to just put down what you want to dispose of. However, as many (if not all) trains do have small bins, I see no reason not to use these, or place litter nearby if they are completely full (and many of the newer bins on Electrostars etc. can actually store a surprising amount, if you take a second or two to push your waste beyond the little flaps!).

Perhaps station food retailers should be made to sponsor more recycling facilities (although ISTR this also may occur - I'm sure I've seen McDonalds branded bins near their outlets in some stations).

 

[DeeGee]

But in many cases, bins on board are not obvious, so it's quite reasonable for someone to assume that because there are no bins on stations, there are no bins on the railway at all.

Especially if the only time they travel by train is on the occasional night out.

 

[ComUtoR]

...and became a habit.

Its become acceptable to litter where cleaners are provided. Not just trains either. We were out in Bluewater the other weekend and decided to eat in the food court. Its difficult to judge but I would say it was about even that some left their trays and some cleared their trays.

You point about no bins is certainly highlighted in London terminals where bins are not provided for security reasons. However; London Terminals and most terminals are very very clean. There is something that happens when you board a train. Habit fits perfectly.

Next time I'm in some kind of passenger focus meeting or filling out an on board survey I'll mention bins

All the trains I travel on or have travelled on have visible bins so I'll concede the point that some don't and exacerbate the littering issue. Still, if you can't see a bin please take your litter with you. Chuck it on the floor/leave it for someone else to clean up is a poor attitude to have.

There is a few station refurbs on Southeastern I will now make a point to see where bins have been placed.

 

[Moonshot]

I m out working 3 return services later today, so as an exercise on the evening one I m due to work, I ll go round and ask people to dispose of their litter and see what reaction I get.....I ll post later

 

[Tetchytyke]

You point about no bins is certainly highlighted in London terminals where bins are not provided for security reasons. However; London Terminals and most terminals are very very clean. There is something that happens when you board a train. Habit fits perfectly.

I think that would make sense, though. People don't normally finish their coffee or their burger or the Evening Standard on the station, they finish it on the train.

The bins on 365s look small but they go back a long way. The trouble is you have to give everything a good shove to use it properly, and people don't really want to do that with a burger box.

 

[Greenback]

But in many cases, bins on board are not obvious, so it's quite reasonable for someone to assume that because there are no bins on stations, there are no bins on the railway at all.

Especially if the only time they travel by train is on the occasional night out.

I agree. The bins on my local trains are sparse, difficult to find and invariably already full when you try and put something in them. Fortunately, I know that there are a lot of council bins outside my local station, so I take any rubbish with me when I am travelling home. On the way to somewhere, I will also take my rubbish off the train with me (unless a cleaner comes around with a big bin bag!) in my own bag, and look for a disposal point.

All the trains I travel on or have travelled on have visible bins so I'll concede the point that some don't and exacerbate the littering issue. Still, if you can't see a bin please take your litter with you. Chuck it on the floor/leave it for someone else to clean up is a poor attitude to have.

I wouldn't know where to find a bin if I have to get on a 150 around here! I know that there ar ebins between some seats on FGW HST's, but I wouldn't say they were visible or obvious, and many people don't seem to know they are there.

One thing I can't understand is why so many people think it is acceptable to leave their rubbish, despite the increased level of environmental concerns across society in general.

Perhaps it is simply a case that having made greater efforts to recycle in their own homes, once some people are outside their own environment, they feel it is someone else's responsibility?

 

[DeeGee]

Imagine I'm making a rare journey on a London Midland 350. I've had my late night snack, and I'm getting off the train at my station. Wondering what to do with my litter, I look around the carriage and see this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/350233_Interior.JPG

I can't see an obvious bin, so, having come from a major station where you leave litter to be collected, I leave it on my seat. I know that trains have cleaners, so figure that's how it works.

By the time I get to the vestibule I spot the bin behind the first seat in the carriage. There are other people behind me waiting to get off. How many otherwise perfectly rational people would then get off rather than turning back, walking against the flow of people, returning to their seat to collect their litter and then binning it?

 

[ComUtoR]

I can't see an obvious bin, so, having come from a major station where you leave litter to be collected, I leave it on my seat. I know that trains have cleaners, so figure that's how it works.

By the time I get to the vestibule I spot the bin behind the first seat in the carriage. There are other people behind me waiting to get off. How many otherwise perfectly rational people would then get off rather than turning back, walking against the flow of people, returning to their seat to collect their litter and then binning it?

I would.

There isn't an excuse to simply dump your litter expecting someone else to clean it up. What does that say about the passenger ? I do concede that where requested you may not see a choice but you still wouldn't casually dump on the floor surely ? I would still take it with me to put in a bin. At least I hope I would.

Litter is also a fire hazard so I remove it for that reason too. I am concerned that there are still stations out there that let you litter casually expecting others to clean it up for you and would have thought the railway has moved on since then. I wouldn't drop litter on a station concourse and really don't see that happening on a regular basis on a London Terminal (Charing Cross, Victoria, Cannon Street)

Your previous point about TOC's providing a means to place rubbish in the correct place certainly needs addressing in that situation. As to the picture of the train. I'm shocked that the assumption is that there isn't a bin. I always look for a bin first, assume afterwards.

@Moonshot I would love to hear what gets said from passengers and the type of passengers you have on the services. A gentle "there's bins at x if you need" should go a long way.

 

[DeeGee]

Don't get me wrong, ComUtoR, I'm the same as you. I recently carried rubbish with me on a journey that involved three trains and a 35 minute walk because I couldn't find any bins that would accept it.

I'm merely suggesting reasons why others don't, and how TOCs could hopefully alleviate the problem. Of course, there will always be yobs who CBA.

 

[ComUtoR]

Oh don't get me wrong. I fully appreciate the devils advocacy here and I am certainly enlightened that there are places where no provision has been made by the TOC. I know that I wasn't personally aware there were no bins in zone 1 until recently and that was because I asked where they were. I never actually noticed there wasn't any. There is little to no litter so something has happened.

Your habit comment rings true. There is a knowledge bins have been removed for security or clear bags used. The signage I hadn't noticed whatsoever until you mentioned it and I will look out for it in future. Plenty of no feet on seats signs but nothing about litter.

I'm looking forward to Moonshots comments later today that's for sure. Passenger attitude is noticeable. On Southeastern there is a marked difference in Metro and Mainline attitudes.

 

[455driver]

The trains I work all have bins by the doors*!

Guess where most of the litter ends up?

The passengers have to walk past the bins to get off and they still dont use them, so how can the TOCs make it any easier for them?

* ex 508 coach excepted which has bins between the seats!

 

[Clip]

Vomit is a completely different matter, but I often feel that internal cleanliness of trains could be improved immeasurably with the introduction of visible bins which are large enough to contain at least one fast food package.

Only 1 fast food wrapper? What about the other 50 odd people who will probably have food with them too?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Only 1 fast food wrapper? What about the other 50 odd people who will probably have food with them too?

In all fairness I don't think DeeGee is suggesting that bins should only be big enough for one fast food carton. I think they are trying to suggest that the current bins are way too small.

 

[tsr]

I know that I wasn't personally aware there were no bins in zone 1 until recently and that was because I asked where they were.

There are a limited number of bins in London Zone 1 stations, but it seems mainly on sub-surface Underground stations, such as in the Euston Square underpass and in the passageways of Baker Street.

 

[user15681]

There are a limited number of bins in London Zone 1 stations, but it seems mainly on sub-surface Underground stations, such as in the Euston Square underpass and in the passageways of Baker Street.

There is, rather oddly, a bin on the southbound Victoria line platform at Oxford Circus. (But that's a different topic)

 

[Katada]

It's better to have a litter problem than explosions happening.
That is the idea here essentially.

But if people are determined enough they will find other ways to do terrorism.

 

[DeeGee]

It's better to have a litter problem than explosions happening.
That is the idea here essentially.

But if people are determined enough they will find other ways to do terrorism.

As 7/7 proved. The threat here is no longer pipe bombs in suitcases or rubbish bins or even vans. Now it's portable devices being worn by bombers.

Anyway, my apologies, we've got well away from the crux of the OP, and I think that might be my fault.

 

[krus_aragon]

I wouldn't know where to find a bin if I have to get on a 150 around here! I know that there ar ebins between some seats on FGW HST's, but I wouldn't say they were visible or obvious, and many people don't seem to know they are there

I can help you with Arriva's 150s: There is a metal bin mounted to the partition wall next to the doors, but only one bin per carriage (I think). So depending on which doors you happen to board and alight at, you might never see one!

You'll find one hiding on the right side of this picture.

 

[trainophile]

No bins on Merseyrail trains, although some stations have the transparent plastic bags ones. None at Liverpool Central, so if you've come in bearing debris from your journey, and especially if you're on a connection to another train and not leaving the station, the only thing you can do is put it down somewhere and walk away.

I asked a gate guard once if there was a bin anywhere, holding out my scrunched up Greggs bag, and he took it off me! How horrid for him if it had been a used tissue!

 

[Hellfire]

I concur with this in principle but how are you going to enforce it? How are you going to stop my wife and I boarding the last train out of Waterloo with a McDonalds when at that time of night the station is deserted?

Getting on a train with a McDonalds, which will stink out the whole carriage should be a bye law offence.