Last trains which should be later

[NorthOxonian]

The last train from Edinburgh to Newcastle is a strange one. While on weekdays and Sundays the last train isn't too bad (2100 Sun-Thurs, 2200 Fri), the last service on a Saturday leaves Edinburgh at 2000. Given the relatively large leisure market between the two cities, that's at least an hour too early (if not two).

It's even worse coming from further north. Take Aberdeen as an example - normally the last train from there to Newcastle is at 1818. But on a Saturday, the latest you can leave Aberdeen is at 1604!

 

[johntea]

I don’t think TOCs will be rushing to add any extra ‘last’ trains for quite a while considering they’re struggling enough as it is to staff what they’re currently timetabled to run!

Outside the forum it does seem the preferred option for a lot of people is just jumping in a taxi or booking a hotel for the night if further afield than worrying about when the last train is

My plan of attack for London from Yorkshire is usually outwards Friday late morning / early afternoon then return Sunday evening around 20:00

I have had reason to do a day return for business several times
(I certainly wouldn’t want to make a habit of it to be honest although I’m led to believe there are…or at least used to be Leeds - London annual season ticket holders who do this day in day out!)

 

[Class 170101]

I agree that the last through Birmingham to Cambridge is 20.22 is early so the last train of the day from Leicester to Melton, Oakham, Stamford etc is 21.12 ish so too early so not ideal if working late, going theatre etc. On Sundays the last southbound service out of Leicester towards London is before 22.00 so even worse particularly if just going to Mkt Harborough or Kettering

Only likely to be one 60 minutes later as it wouldn't arrive Cambridge until 00:10 (approx) which is where the depot is.

The only way you would get a later train is if it was a Peterborough based crew arriving around 00:15. Similarly westbound a later train from Cambridge would have to be a Leicester crw arriving around 23:55 and a further later one being a Peterborough crew arriving there around 23:50.

On Sundays the last Southbound is 17:34 from Glasgow to the likes of Preston etc. There used to be a Crewe service around 20:00 but covid erased it.

Thats for south of Preston, 19:15 ex Glasgow for Manchester Airport on Sunday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2022 ==

London to Manchester - last service is at 22:00. There used to be later services pre-pandemic but as with so many things in the Avanti timetable, it's been cut back. Really quite poor considering the last service to Wolverhampton is 23:30, Leeds is 23:33, Derby is 23:05, York is 23:00, Norwich is 23:30, and Bristol is 23:32.

00:15 for Derby now on weekdays I think.

So basically every other major city on an IC route out of London has a last departure after 23:00, in most cases around 23:30, yet Manchester's is an hour and a half earlier. I won't even go into Liverpool or Preston as they are even worse!

22:00 used to only run as far as Crewe, this should have been extended to Liverpool with the 23:00 going to Manchester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2022 ==

Unlikely to have enough demand for a fast service. You could do one with more stops but that'd be heading for 0130 which I think wouldn't be popular.

2300 is unlikely to be early enough to do a show then get a 2300 train, it'd need to be 2330, so you're looking at an 0200 arrival, then driving/taxi-ing home. Not likely to be popular I reckon.

23:00 would be possible from Euston I'd say might be popular if it saves a hotel bill which in difficult times might be a good thing

2101 on Saturday which is again a bit early.

Yes it is a bit early though unfortunately this is driven by Engineering Access which on Intercity routes tends to lead to an early night Saturday night and a late start Sunday morning. It should also be said people do make a weekend of it and book hotels unlike say on a weekday night when work in the morning beckons. However with more flexible working as a result of covid these late night performances on a weeknight might not be such an issue as a late start at the 'office' the following day wouldn't be considered unacceptable.

 

[Sheridan]

You can do the same in the morning with the first arrival from the coast at Chester being 0608 and the departure towards to coast at 0643.

I suspect that the imbalance does reflect demand (as well as reflecting the need for the TOC to have units in the right place), except perhaps for the fact that the 0040 doesn’t connect to a ferry, with current departures being 0215 and 0240, neither of which can be made with an arrival into Holyhead of 0215.
I do think the current last train off Holyhead being the 2032 is rather early, and a later departure eastbound from Bangor than the current 2100-ish would probably be desirable but not necessarily practical in terms of overall balance of units and train crew.

 

[boyaloud]

Anyone else think the reason Stoke's arrivals from major nearby cities finish early is because the last arrival of the whole day is at 2357 (from London)? However, it still means trains from Brum and Manchester could leave quite a bit later than they do, at around 11pm, which would be so much better.

 

[Intro298]

Is it not fair to say that if you go out locally on a night, theatre, cinema, gig, club, a train up until midnight could be expected in a large city, but after that a taxi is your way home. If you have travelled to another city for a late night in the same way, then maybe you should be considering an overnight stay. After all, train staff have to finish at some time, and short term engineering often occurs on any night. Is the MAN-LDS-YRK route still the only 24 hr service?

Thameslink runs 24 hours between Bedford and Three Bridges, Mon-Sun, with it being every 30 mins from 0200.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Because it’s got four tracks almost all the way and where it hasn’t in South London a multiplicity of routes to avoid individual engineering work closures. Even then the core is sometimes closed, sometimes for whole days over a weekend. It’s also got two airports which are quite good for regular late night/early morning traffic (as opposed to weekend leisure activity).

 

[JonathanH]

Thameslink runs 24 hours between Bedford and Three Bridges, Mon-Sun, with it being every 30 mins from 0200.

It doesn't go through the Core on a Sunday morning with a closure 0200-0900.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

You should try going from Birmingham to Stratford-upon-Avon on a Sunday if you think these trains are very early. 2230 in the week, 1830 last one on a Sunday and that's a busy route, especially in the summer. At least that's what is was 12 months ago.

There really should be more late services across the network. There does need to be a cut-off for finishing times of train crew in reality, ideally around 1/130am would be a start.

It will no doubt be a mix of engineering access, staggered maintenance for units and cost efficiency due to the last trains being mostly empty - except out of Lime St this weekend obviously.

 

[Starmill]

The last train from Birmingham to Preston Mon-Sat is a disgusting 1915. Strangely it's a more respectable 2115 on a Sunday. There's almost certainly later journey opportunities via Manchester, but 7pm for the last direct service is ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? There's a 2115 and 2157 both with a connection provided at Stafford. There's no need to travel via Manchester. Journey times are about the same as on a direct train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is that ridiculous? There's a 2115 and 2157 both with a connection provided at Stafford. There's no need to travel via Manchester. Journey times are about the same as on a direct train.

Birmingham to the North West/Scotland is a major (though secondary) InterCity route, and really should have a later direct last train than that. 2115 seems more reasonable.

 

[Starmill]

Birmingham to the North West/Scotland is a major (though secondary) InterCity route, and really should have a later direct last train than that. 2115 seems more reasonable.

The 2115 used to go to Preston on weekdays, but was truncated at Crewe in order to improve rolling stock utilisation. A connection of less than 10 minutes and usually cross-platform is provided at Stafford. Two trains five minutes apart for miles making exactly the same stops, both with a majority of the seats empty, was a waste. The new arrangement is more efficient.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It doesn't go through the Core on a Sunday morning with a closure 0200-0900.

Service still runs from London Victoria - Three Bridges instead.

Plus the core closure starts at 01:45, not 02:00.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 2115 used to go to Preston on weekdays, but was truncated at Crewe in order to improve rolling stock utilisation. A connection of less than 10 minutes and usually cross-platform is provided at Stafford. Two trains five minutes apart for miles making exactly the same stops, both with a majority of the seats empty, was a waste. The new arrangement is more efficient.

But not more passenger-friendly. You can't have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere, but direct trains between two major interchanges on a major InterCity route is a not unreasonable request.

 

[Starmill]

But not more passenger-friendly. You can't have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere, but direct trains between two major interchanges on a major InterCity route is a not unreasonable request.

It's reasonable to provide a direct train until the 1915 and then provide suitable connections with only a very small journey time penalty. The train being back at Oxley three hours earlier allows another diagram to commence from there earlier the following day, which is of much greater benefit than the 2115 from Birmingham duplicating the 2030 from London after Stafford was.

 

[Express380]

21:21 and 21:15 On Saturdays and Sundays through from Plymouth into Cornwall are hardly good last services for a weekend night out I find it a pain having to leave Exeter at 8:15 pm to get home . Seeing how loaded the 22:38 Plymouth to Penzance gets loaded on weekdays it's odd how they don't run on weekends also, even then that one doesn't allow for much of a night out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

21:21 and 21:15 On Saturdays and Sundays through from Plymouth into Cornwall are hardly good last services for a weekend night out I find it a pain having to leave Exeter at 8:15 pm to get home . Seeing how loaded the 22:38 Plymouth to Penzance gets loaded on weekdays it's odd how they don't run on weekends also, even then that one doesn't allow for much of a night out.

Given the antisocial behaviour issues you get on Saturday late evening services, I think in some cases the railway just doesn't want to operate them even if it could.

 

[dk1]

Given the antisocial behaviour issues you get on Saturday late evening services, I think in some cases the railway just doesn't want to operate them even if it could.

Too true. Is it worth it half the time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Too true. Is it worth it half the time?

Sometimes services are pulled for that reason even if they would otherwise operate. It's the reason Kirkby-Wigan has no evening service - it was pulled in the 1980s after too many brickings and never reinstated. I recall the last Saturday evening Liverpool-Crewe was also pulled for this reason.

 

[dk1]

Sometimes services are pulled for that reason even if they would otherwise operate. It's the reason Kirkby-Wigan has no evening service - it was pulled in the 1980s after too many brickings and never reinstated. I recall the last Saturday evening Liverpool-Crewe was also pulled for this reason.

Awful to think such things happen. Why bother?

 

[Class 170101]

I suspect that the imbalance does reflect demand (as well as reflecting the need for the TOC to have units in the right place), except perhaps for the fact that the 0040 doesn’t connect to a ferry, with current departures being 0215 and 0240, neither of which can be made with an arrival into Holyhead of 0215.
I do think the current last train off Holyhead being the 2032 is rather early, and a later departure eastbound from Bangor than the current 2100-ish would probably be desirable but not necessarily practical in terms of overall balance of units and train crew.

20:32 departure from Holyhead seems early I'd agree. I would also say that an 08:20 arrival at Holyhead seems rather late for a first one of the morning.

21:21 and 21:15 On Saturdays and Sundays through from Plymouth into Cornwall are hardly good last services for a weekend night out I find it a pain having to leave Exeter at 8:15 pm to get home . Seeing how loaded the 22:38 Plymouth to Penzance gets loaded on weekdays it's odd how they don't run on weekends also, even then that one doesn't allow for much of a night out.

Engineering Access on Saturday (and Sunday) nights.

 

[Starmill]

Sometimes services are pulled for that reason even if they would otherwise operate. It's the reason Kirkby-Wigan has no evening service - it was pulled in the 1980s after too many brickings and never reinstated. I recall the last Saturday evening Liverpool-Crewe was also pulled for this reason.

Nottingham to Grantham at 2050 is a similar reason.

 

[Class 170101]

Surely we need to come down hard on the anti-social behaviour not just abandon everyone and cancel trains as a means of solving the problem. It will not help to grow passenger use if we cancel evening trains.

 

[Mark J]

As I've already posed elsewhere.

Oxford at the weekend.

It is ridiculous that the last train southwards is 22:36 on a Saturday - on the Cherwell line.

However, I understand this is due to an engineering block on the line. Although that last train time may return later in the year, after the block is lifted for the summer months.

 

[Class 170101]

Some areas won't get get food late services because of where the operator reources the service from.

For example
Sheffield to Lincoln has an early finish
Lincoln to Sheffield a late start

This route is resourced from Sheffield, Northern have no depot in Lincoln as where as EMR do, historically this route I believe, it was said previously, was shared between at least Sheffield and Lincoln

 

[mangyiscute]

As I've already posed elsewhere.

Oxford at the weekend.

It is ridiculous that the last train southwards is 22:36 on a Saturday - on the Cherwell line.

However, I understand this is due to an engineering block on the line. Although that last train time may return later in the year, after the block is lifted for the summer months.

I actually took the 00:05 bus on a Sunday to Didcot and then the 00:37 train to Reading a couple weeks back and the journey ran very smoothly thankfully, so it isn't the worse option

 

[northwichcat]

Quite a lot of them outside the South East, really.

I'd say the last departure on local services from the town or city centre should not be before 2300, ideally not before 0001. On longer distance routes it could be earlier, but not before about 2200 ideally, except where the distance is so long that that'd be the Sleeper.

Obviously that all costs, though.

Existing late trains Mon-Thurs aren't that well used. For Friday and Saturday nights it's a different story and the last train is quite often overcrowded. It's probably easier to justify later Friday and Saturday only trains then later trains every night.

 

[mangyiscute]

For me, the last train from Edinburgh to London on Sat being at 17:30 was horrific (and Newcastle as 19:02) although Lumo have added a service a half hour later it is still too early IMO considering there's a 7pm sundays and 8pm m-f now.

I'd argue for Reading to London as 24 hour besides Sunday morning - from pad to RDG there's an 0040, 0140, 0334 and 0506 through the night, and going towards London its 0018, 0115, 0224, 0355 and 0434 so I don't really see a big gap anywhere. However, there is like a 7 hour gap on Sunday mornings

 

[northwichcat]

Some areas won't get get food late services because of where the operator reources the service from.

For example
Sheffield to Lincoln has an early finish
Lincoln to Sheffield a late start

This route is resourced from Sheffield, Northern have no depot in Lincoln as where as EMR do, historically this route I believe, it was said previously, was shared between at least Sheffield and Lincoln

What's that got to do with it? On the Manchester to Chester via Altrincham line the latest service operates out of Manchester, despite the Northern crews being based in Manchester. Any trains returning to the depot take the shorter route via Warrington and go back out-of-service.

 

[Trainbike46]

What's that got to do with it? On the Manchester to Chester via Altrincham line the latest service operates out of Manchester, despite the Northern crews being based in Manchester. Any trains returning to the depot take the shorter route via Warrington and go back out-of-service.

It is a real thing, and another example is Ipswich-Cambridge: the route is exclusively crewed from the ipswich end, so the first Cambridge to Ipswich in the morning is much later and the last Ipswich to Cambridge is much earlier than the opposite direction

Weekdays:

Ipswich to Cambridge first departure: 5:10 (arrives 06:27, and then forms the 6:41 back)
Cambridge to Ipswich first departure: 6:41
Ipswich to Cambridge last departure: 21:20 (arrives 22:42, and then forms the 22:47 back)
Cambridge to Ipswich last departure: 22:47

Which isn't too bad (though there have been occasions where I really wanted earlier trains to Ipswich and later trains back!), but on a sunday the first departure CBG to IPS isn't untill 09:00, which is rather late.