Last trains which should be later

[boyaloud]

I think it’s really poor that the last service from Manchester to stoke on Trent is 2218 on weekdays and 2143 on Saturdays, not late enough for gigs and barely for most theatre shows. Considering stoke is pretty dire for entertainment options, its fast connections to Manchester really are its saving grace. Perhaps the worst intercity service in the country between two close by cities? Similarly the last train back from Birmingham is at 2222. Anyone else have other examples?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Last Southbound departures on the WCML on Saturdays to stations beyond Carlisle (Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston etc.) are the 1847 (?) from Glasgow Central and the 1852 from Edinburgh. Nothing either much later weekdays or Sundays.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Last Southbound departures on the WCML on Saturdays to stations beyond Carlisle (Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston etc.) are the 1847 (?) from Glasgow Central and the 1852 from Edinburgh. Nothing either much later weekdays or Sundays.

There’s a 2011 TPE from Edinburgh to Preston which connects into a northern through to Manchester at Preston; appreciate it’s not Wigan/Warrington/etc. but at least there’s something a bit later

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite a lot of them outside the South East, really.

I'd say the last departure on local services from the town or city centre should not be before 2300, ideally not before 0001. On longer distance routes it could be earlier, but not before about 2200 ideally, except where the distance is so long that that'd be the Sleeper.

Obviously that all costs, though.

 

[Watershed]

London to Manchester - last service is at 22:00. There used to be later services pre-pandemic but as with so many things in the Avanti timetable, it's been cut back. Really quite poor considering the last service to Wolverhampton is 23:30, Leeds is 23:33, Derby is 23:05, York is 23:00, Norwich is 23:30, and Bristol is 23:32.

So basically every other major city on an IC route out of London has a last departure after 23:00, in most cases around 23:30, yet Manchester's is an hour and a half earlier. I won't even go into Liverpool or Preston as they are even worse!

 

[Peter0124]

On Sundays the last Southbound is 17:34 from Glasgow to the likes of Preston etc. There used to be a Crewe service around 20:00 but covid erased it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London to Manchester - last service is at 22:00. There used to be later services pre-pandemic but as with so many things in the Avanti timetable, it's been cut back. Really quite poor considering the last service to Wolverhampton is 23:30, Leeds is 23:33, Derby is 23:05, York is 23:00, Norwich is 23:30, and Bristol is 23:32.

Manchester used to be 2300 before COVID if I recall.

So basically every other major city on an IC route out of London has a last departure after 23:00, in most cases around 23:30, yet Manchester's is an hour and a half earlier. I won't even go into Liverpool or Preston as they are even worse!

Liverpool has classically been bad. Preston you can go via Manchester.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Liverpool has classically been bad.

A few minutes after 21.00, which is pathetic. Are the railway in cahoots with the London hotel trade?

Makes midweek football games a non-starter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A few minutes after 21.00, which is pathetic. Are the railway in cahoots with the London Hotel trade?

2136 with a change at Manchester, arriving 0055. I can't see many people wanting to arrive later than that, short of the Cally taking Preston passengers. That's timed for "work day followed by a nice meal". Few would want to go to a show finishing around 2300 and arrive home at 3am.

2031 on a Saturday, which *is* too early.

 

[Grumpy Git]

2136 with a change at Manchester, arriving 0055. I can't see many people wanting to arrive later than that, short of the Cally taking Preston passengers.

2031 on a Saturday, which *is* too early.

A fast 23.00 departure would arrive back just after 01.00, that would be a proper service.

What time is the last departure to Manchester?

 

[Watershed]

Manchester used to be 2300 before COVID if I recall.

Ah yes, that rings a bell. A painful trundle behind stoppers on the Slow Lines, of course, because of NR's insistence on taking nearly 8 hours of engineering access on the WCML every night, vs around 5 on every other major route!

Liverpool has classically been bad.

Though that's hardly an excuse - particularly considering the fact that it's an Avanti traincrew depot and has a maintenance depot nearby.

Preston you can go via Manchester.

Not if you catch a 23:00 Slow Line "express" you can't! Last train from Manchester is a respectable 00:09 but you've got to take the 21:36 to make that.

The situation is considerably worse towards London - last train from Manchester is at 21:15.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A fast 23.00 departure would arrive back just after 01.00, that would be a proper service.

Unlikely to have enough demand for a fast service. You could do one with more stops but that'd be heading for 0130 which I think wouldn't be popular.

2300 is unlikely to be early enough to do a show then get a 2300 train, it'd need to be 2330, so you're looking at an 0200 arrival, then driving/taxi-ing home. Not likely to be popular I reckon.

Though talking of seeing shows, the main use-case for being in London late in the evening other than just getting drunk (which would give for a very unpleasant 3 hour train ride), they all do Saturday matinees, so what you do is travel down in the morning, do a bit of tourism, catch the matinee, dinner out and last train back. The present timings work just fine for that.

What time is the last departure to Manchester?

2200 at the moment but I think it was 2300. I've used the late one before to MKC and it was never very busy, nor is the 2330 Brum.

2101 on Saturday which is again a bit early.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2022 ==

Here's another one - Birmingham to MKC/London, 2210 on a Saturday, though it used to be 2136 which was worse! Used to be a 2310 pre COVID which was more like it but that only ran weekdays. That's arguably more of an issue than Manchester etc because being a short journey it is almost all daytrippers.

 

[Watershed]

2300 is unlikely to be early enough to do a show then get a 2300 train, it'd need to be 2330, so you're looking at an 0200 arrival, then driving/taxi-ing home. Not likely to be popular I reckon.

Well that's the time of the last train from London on just about every other IC TOC. Which suggests it's Avanti that's out of step here, rather than every other TOC being profligate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well that's the time of the last train from London on just about every other IC TOC. Which suggests it's Avanti that's out of step here, rather than every other TOC being profligate.

Question is - are those 2300 trains being well-used for long distance journeys, or are they mostly only carrying shorter distance passengers, e.g. to the likes of Birmingham (which still has a 2330, which is horrendously slow because it's timed slow-line and via Northampton)?

 

[Scotrail314209]

Glasgow Central is pretty bad for the last trains on commuter routes. For this Friday:

Wemyss Bay (for Whinhill, Drumfrochar, Branchton, Inverkip) - 2237
Neilston - 2305
Edinburgh via Shotts - 2310
Paisley Canal - 2312
Kilmarnock - 2313
East Kilbride - 2317
Lanark - 2320 (for Shieldmuir, Wishaw and Carluke)
Newton (via Queens Park) - 2320
Motherwell (via Whifflet) - 2330
Largs (for Milliken Park, Howwood, Lochwinnoch, Glengarnock and Dalry) - 2345
Newton (via Maxwell Park) - 2245
Larkhall (Bus) - 2307
Motherwell - 2350
Gourock - 2350
Ayr - 0015

All of these could be later, particularly on Neilston, Maxwell Park, Kilmarnock and East Kilbride. It makes going on a night out in Glasgow completely useless as you need to finish early.

The local buses don't finish much later either.

I recall on a Friday there were additional trains after midnight, from memory I think these were:

0005 - Neilston
0013 - Kilmarnock
0017 - Edinburgh
0020 - Cathcart (full circle via Maxwell Park).

Covid killed them off though.

 

[Peter0124]

0005 - Neilston
0013 - Kilmarnock
0017 - Edinburgh
0020 - Cathcart (full circle via Maxwell Park).

Covid killed them off though.

They also had an 0006 to Motherwell which ran from the low level via Hamilton Circle. I wish they brought them back. Also a 2357 via Whifflet and an 0010 to Milngavie IIRC.

Here's another one - Birmingham to MKC/London, 2210 on a Saturday, though it used to be 2136 which was worse! Used to be a 2310 pre COVID which was more like it but that only ran weekdays. That's arguably more of an issue than Manchester etc because being a short journey it is almost all daytrippers.

The 23:10 still runs Mon-Fri, but originates from Edinburgh rather than Wolverhampton, which I think is an improvement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 23:10 still runs Mon-Fri, but originates from Edinburgh rather than Wolverhampton, which I think is an improvement.

Ah, yes, it is there, not sure how I missed it. Needs to be there on a Saturday as well. With Birmingham city centre being quite compact, it's late enough to go to a gig and get home as long as you don't mind leaving immediately the music stops.

The 2210 Saturday LNR used to terminate at Northampton with a separate service leaving slightly before it to Euston, which was really quite silly. It now runs to Euston which is much more sensible.

 

[D6975]

The Last New St - Temple Meads is 2112 on a Saturday, hopeless for getting home from a performance at any of the Brum theatres or NEC.

 

[Mike99]

Previously living between Nuneaton and Hinckley I used to feel that the mid/late evening provision from Birmingham New Street towards Nuneaton, Leicester and onwards towards Peterborough, Cambridge and Stansted and from Leicester towards Birmingham New Street was not the most inspiring. Daily from New Street beyond Leicester the last departure is 20:22 to Cambridge. The following service is at 20:52 to Leicester and the final service of the day also terminating at Leicester is ninety minutes later at 22:22 (1K33), from New Street, (Sundays 21:52). To balance this particular example, in the other direction the last (Mondays to Fridays) Leicester to Birmingham New Street departs, a bit later at 22:56 (1N71, 20:21 from Stansted Airport) arrives into New Street at 23:44 (This omits a call at Hinckley) the last Leicester to Hinckley is at 22:27. On Saturdays and Sundays the last two Leicester to Birmingham New Street are at 21:50 (19:27 ex Stansted Airport) and 22:20 (Hinckley 22:40) arriving New Street at 23:15

 

[Lewlew]

Last train out of Euston to Milton Keynes is at 0015 on a Saturday instead of the usual 0134 (even on a Sunday).

It often catches many people out who end up on the replacement buses at 2am which take a long time to get anywhere.

I get the need for engineering works etc but look forward to the day the 0134 can run on a Saturday.

 

[Flying Snail]

In contrast to the opposite direction the North Wales coast line has a very early finish eastbound. The last departure is 20.32 from Holyhead and 21.01 from Bangor.

You could take the last train to Chester and have more than 2 hours there before returning at 00.40, a very extreme imbalance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

look forward to the day the 0134 can run on a Saturday.

When it did I used it a few times and it was usually very quiet (even more so on weekdays). The 0015 is generally not that busy either - people tend to go out earlier and come back on the big procession of 12-cars between about 2200 and 2334, or they go clubbing and go home on the first morning train.

I'd probably more expect it to be removed entirely and 0015 become the last one, though it's probably no massive deal to have it there as it then works back as the 03xx southbound which is surprisingly busy with "key workers" (this doesn't run on a Sunday, so a Saturday night 0134 would need to stand on its own two feet, as it were).

 

[xydancer]

On Saturdays, last Avanti out of Euston (to Birmingham/Wolverhampton) is 2142. Last London Northwestern that goes beyond Northampton is 2131.

 

[Flying Snail]

When it did I used it a few times and it was usually very quiet (even more so on weekdays). The 0015 is generally not that busy either - people tend to go out earlier and come back on the big procession of 12-cars between about 2200 and 2334, or they go clubbing and go home on the first morning train.

I'd probably more expect it to be removed entirely and 0015 become the last one, though it's probably no massive deal to have it there as it then works back as the 03xx southbound which is surprisingly busy with "key workers" (this doesn't run on a Sunday, so a Saturday night 0134 would need to stand on its own two feet, as it were).

The idea that these services need to be rammed to justify their existence is nonsense. While most people won't need to use them regularly there being the availability of late trains will make the difference between choosing PT or not for some, last time I checked my car did not have any issue being available 24/7.

 

[Lewlew]

The 0015 is generally not that busy either

You clearly haven't used it in a while then!

I'm a regular on it and it is often rammed. I often get on at Wembley Central and have to physically wedge myself in.

Even more fun when they send it out as a 4 car!

The 0330 from MK isn't overly busy but provides a very useful service to us shift workers. The 0430 is busier though and is only a 4 car.

 

[43055]

In contrast to the opposite direction the North Wales coast line has a very early finish eastbound. The last departure is 20.32 from Holyhead and 21.01 from Bangor.

You could take the last train to Chester and have more than 2 hours there before returning at 00.40, a very extreme imbalance.

You can do the same in the morning with the first arrival from the coast at Chester being 0608 and the departure towards to coast at 0643.

 

[roversfan2001]

The last train from Birmingham to Preston Mon-Sat is a disgusting 1915. Strangely it's a more respectable 2115 on a Sunday. There's almost certainly later journey opportunities via Manchester, but 7pm for the last direct service is ridiculous.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Previously living between Nuneaton and Hinckley I used to feel that the mid/late evening provision from Birmingham New Street towards Nuneaton, Leicester and onwards towards Peterborough, Cambridge and Stansted and from Leicester towards Birmingham New Street was not the most inspiring. Daily from New Street beyond Leicester the last departure is 20:22 to Cambridge. The following service is at 20:52 to Leicester and the final service of the day also terminating at Leicester is ninety minutes later at 22:22 (1K33), from New Street, (Sundays 21:52). To balance this particular example, in the other direction the last (Mondays to Fridays) Leicester to Birmingham New Street departs, a bit later at 22:56 (1N71, 20:21 from Stansted Airport) arrives into New Street at 23:44 (This omits a call at Hinckley) the last Leicester to Hinckley is at 22:27. On Saturdays and Sundays the last two Leicester to Birmingham New Street are at 21:50 (19:27 ex Stansted Airport) and 22:20 (Hinckley 22:40) arriving New Street at 23:15

I agree that the last through Birmingham to Cambridge is 20.22 is early so the last train of the day from Leicester to Melton, Oakham, Stamford etc is 21.12 ish so too early so not ideal if working late, going theatre etc. On Sundays the last southbound service out of Leicester towards London is before 22.00 so even worse particularly if just going to Mkt Harborough or Kettering

 

[Mike99]

I agree that the last through Birmingham to Cambridge is 20.22 is early so the last train of the day from Leicester to Melton, Oakham, Stamford etc is 21.12 ish so too early so not ideal if working late, going theatre etc. On Sundays the last southbound service out of Leicester towards London is before 22.00 so even worse particularly if just going to Mkt Harborough or Kettering

Agree with you entirely

 

[BoroAndy]

Is it not fair to say that if you go out locally on a night, theatre, cinema, gig, club, a train up until midnight could be expected in a large city, but after that a taxi is your way home. If you have travelled to another city for a late night in the same way, then maybe you should be considering an overnight stay. After all, train staff have to finish at some time, and short term engineering often occurs on any night. Is the MAN-LDS-YRK route still the only 24 hr service?