Lancaster to Carlisle Engineering Works

[IslandDweller]

"Better and cheaper to use 100% bus"
Cheaper - yes. Better - You have to be joking.
I am a fan of train travel - but I loath coach travel. If I'm paying for a train journey then a coach is simply not an acceptable answer when a dversionary route is possible - not for this fare paying passenger. Luckily I knew about these works (despite there being no mention of them on the National Rail engineering page) and so travelled via Edinburgh and the east coast route yesterday.

 

[yorksrob]

I think its very poor really its not that long ago virgin would provide a significant number of services routed via the S&C for such engineering works, both Pendolino + 57 and voyager.

Of course since then virgin have got rid of all their 57's with only a few retained by DRS for thunderbird duties.

Never the less that doesn't stop them running some voyagers wasn't that part of the justification for retaining so many voyagers on the west coast for diversionary purposes, however it would seem to now fall under the carn't be arsed/ too expensive category. One wonders if its the provision of the current contract that virgin have that they dont have to provide so much in the way of diverted services.

Indeed. They've also got the Pretendolino to add into the mix as well, so there's no excuse not to make some sort of an effort.

 

[DarloRich]

The TOC will simply look at what is cheaper and allows them to retain as much of the NR compo payments as they can. That will be the bus for the relatively short journey between Lancaster & Carlisle. I also think the bus up the M6 will be quicker. I am not saying that is right just a reflection of the commercial world.

Also i wonder what impact using the diversion has on the timetable further south. What inconvenience will this bring to every Virgin passenger rather than those trying to get between Lancaster & Carlisle?

 

[yorksrob]

The TOC will simply look at what is cheaper and allows them to retain as much of the NR compo payments as they can. That will be the bus for the relatively short journey between Lancaster & Carlisle. I also think the bus up the M6 will be quicker. I am not saying that is right just a reflection of the commercial world.

Also i wonder what impact using the diversion has on the timetable further south. What inconvenience will this bring to every Virgin passenger rather than those trying to get between Lancaster & Carlisle?

Perhaps the NR compo regime makes it too easy for TOC's to bustitute. Maybe there should be a financial penalty included for failing to make use of diversionary routes.

 

[driver9000]

That Pendolino will be loco hauled because there are no wires there. Therefore, the driver will probably not be a virgin man.

Preston crews sign the S&C at Virgin. The road learning loco goes out fairly regularly to enable them to retain the route knowledge so in all probability it will be a VT driver in the front.

 

[DarloRich]

Perhaps the NR compo regime makes it too easy for TOC's to bustitute. Maybe there should be a financial penalty included for failing to make use of diversionary routes.

one of many aspects of the whole financial structure of the railways that needs fixing!

But you could just as easily suggest the Cumbrian Coast line as a diversion route - if it hadn't all been washed away over the last few days - which would take ages and then back the TOC into rejecting the diversion route and paying compo. That doesn't seem fair either!

 

[yorksrob]

one of many aspects of the whole financial structure of the railways that needs fixing!

But you could just as easily suggest the Cumbrian Coast line as a diversion route - if it hadn't all been washed away over the last few days - which would take ages and then back the TOC into rejecting the diversion route and paying compo. That doesn't seem fair either!

I'm sure a network of suitable diversionary routes could be designated by NR or a third party. These would most likely be those such as the Settle - Carlisle which have historically been used for such purposes, rather than outlayers such as the Cumbrian Coast, which probably aren't cleared for anything anyway.

 

[TOCDriver]

Preston crews sign the S&C at Virgin. The road learning loco goes out fairly regularly to enable them to retain the route knowledge so in all probability it will be a VT driver in the front.

I should have known. They still do have quite a few old timers driving for them

 

[D1009]

Perhaps the NR compo regime makes it too easy for TOC's to bustitute. Maybe there should be a financial penalty included for failing to make use of diversionary routes.

Simply not true, NR made an undertaking a few years ago to reduce bustitution, and as a result Virgin started using the Chiltern route to divert between Nuneaton and Euston, East Coast started using the Lincoln route between Peterborough and Doncaster, also the coast line via Sunderland. I can't offer any explanation of why the S&C is not being used on this occasion other than the possession is at the quietest part of the weekend, train services resuming from Sunday afternoon.

 

[TOCDriver]

Indeed. They've also got the Pretendolino to add into the mix as well, so there's no excuse not to make some sort of an effort.

Unfortunately, the railway is a business and it will be run for profit, not the enthusiast.

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately, the railway is a business and it will be run for profit, not the enthusiast.

Nor indeed the passenger, so it seems.

 

[TOCDriver]

Nor indeed the passenger, so it seems.

As longs as the passenger gets to their destination as cheaply as possible, job done as far as the TOC's are concerned. Still, the coach isn't bad you know. It can take you through some lovely scenery on its way to rural stations

 

[Tomnick]

I'd much rather enjoy the lovely scenery of the S&C than therather less inspiring M6, thanks

 

[TOCDriver]

I'd much rather enjoy the lovely scenery of the S&C than therather less inspiring M6, thanks

I agree, but that's much more expensive

 

[Tomnick]

Is it that much more expensive though? We've established that crews have the route knowledge (and presumably more than a few old timers, if not the whole depot), so there's no need to hire route conductors or, if diesel traction is used, arrange drags. Should be practical, especially if it's only a relatively limited through service. EMT are currently diverting 2tph, with a considerable time and distance penalty, in each direction between Kettering and Leicester (as they do on several Sundays each year) so it's clearly not an unreasonable proposal (otherwise VT wouldn't do it at other times!).

 

[EltonRoad]

Just to add to the above, I've got photos of double Voyagers on the S&C from April and May 2013, so they definitely ran. I seem to remember there was one return journey between Birmingham and Scotland.

 

[TOCDriver]

Is it that much more expensive though? We've established that crews have the route knowledge (and presumably more than a few old timers, if not the whole depot), so there's no need to hire route conductors or, if diesel traction is used, arrange drags. Should be practical, especially if it's only a relatively limited through service. EMT are currently diverting 2tph, with a considerable time and distance penalty, in each direction between Kettering and Leicester (as they do on several Sundays each year) so it's clearly not an unreasonable proposal (otherwise VT wouldn't do it at other times!).

Yeah, but they would still have to hire buses to serve intermediate stations on top of paying track fees and staffing costs for the diversions. Coaches can be hired for next to nothing these days

 

[Ploughman]

Are there the spare paths now on the S+C to fit diverted trains in?

 

[TOCDriver]

Just to add to the above, I've got photos of double Voyagers on the S&C from April and May 2013, so they definitely ran. I seem to remember there was one return journey between Birmingham and Scotland.

Virgin have conformed that they will be running along the S&C later in the year

 

[RichmondCommu]

6 weekends in total. And Virgin Drivers do not sign Settle. Why would they have to? The bus replacement service is well organised if truth be told, and only adds on another 1.5 hours to the total journey (having experienced it myself). Why would you send a Voyager towards Leeds for a WCML diversion?

Why would you have to go via Leeds?

 

[TOCDriver]

Why would you have to go via Leeds?

I said towards Leeds, no to Leeds

 

[RichmondCommu]

I said towards Leeds, no to Leeds

So why mention Leeds? Why not say towards Hellifield?

 

[Carlisle]

I should have known. They still do have quite a few old timers driving for them

Pendilinos were regularly hauled on diversions with virgin crews on the S&C until around 2008 when Virgin west coast began using their newly acquired fleet of voyagers instead ,presumably mainly to save on the expense of having 2 drivers which were needed on the pendilino drags plus time taken coupling/splitting locos etc

 

[TOCDriver]

So why mention Leeds? Why not say towards Hellifield?

Does it really matter? lol

 

[RichmondCommu]

Does it really matter? lol

Well Leeds is a lot further than Hellfield. lol

 

[Carlisle]

Just over 36 miles according to my computer lol

 

[voyagerdude220]

Virgin have conformed that they will be running along the S&C later in the year

Any ideas roughly what time of year? I always like to take a trip on the diversions every year.
I assume they've said something officially about diverting?

 

[TOCDriver]

Any ideas roughly what time of year? I always like to take a trip on the diversions every year.
I assume they've said something officially about diverting?

Indeed they have. Give them a tweet on twitter.
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Just over 36 miles according to my computer lol

How boring. I'm not familiar with that route, all I know is that it provides the Leeds service from Carlisle. If you wish to be pedantic about it, then that's your choice.

 

[HowardGWR]

How boring. I'm not familiar with that route, all I know is that it provides the Leeds service from Carlisle. If you wish to be pedantic about it, then that's your choice.

What is the route by the way? In order not to reverse they have to come off the WCML near Leyland and then via Blackburn - is that right?

 

[furryfeet]

Perhaps the NR compo regime makes it too easy for TOC's to bustitute. Maybe there should be a financial penalty included for failing to make use of diversionary routes.

Agreed.
Does anyone know on this forum as to whether the franchise specification for Virgin lays down any minimum number of trains per day that should be sent via the diversionary route ?
Or whether such a clause will be inserted into the franchise contract when it comes up for renewal ?