Labour and HS2

[The Ham]

Do politicians think *that* far ahead?

Quite, given a week is a long time in politics that they probably haven't thought about anything that far ahead, but just thought that it maybe something that could cause them political problems if they are not careful.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

An interview in the New Statesman with Andy Burnham where they discuss HS2

But it is when I ask for his views on an area outside his policy brief, the High Speed 2 rail link (HS2), that Burnham becomes most animated. “It comes right through my constituency [Leigh] and it’s made me look at it in a very hard-headed way,” he says, complaining of an “absolutely massive depot” on what is “currently green space”.

Recently, after Balls threatened to withdraw backing for the project last year, Labour has moved to a more supportive position, with Ed Miliband recruiting the original architect of HS2, Andrew Adonis, to advise him on the issue. But Burnham goes further in his criticism than any other shadow cabinet minister has done. “I’ve given no guarantees about supporting it. I’m not talking as a frontbencher here, I’m talking as the MP for Leigh. I will not let my constituents carry on paying through their taxes for the rail network when they don’t have reasonable access to it. It’s as simple as that. If the government’s going to lay new rail track in my constituency, it can bloody well give us a station.”

Remarkably, Burnham refuses to rule out breaking collective responsibility and voting against HS2 if changes are not made. “If they don’t look again at the depot, I’d have to say to my own whips: ‘Everyone’s constituency is going to be affected differently and everyone’s going to have to account. You can’t have a blanket position because it doesn’t affect everybody equally, does it?’ ” Whether the Labour whips would take such an emollient view is questionable.

More than almost any other shadow cabinet minister, Burnham has the potential to be a transformative secretary of state. Whole-person care is the most fully developed example of the new approach to public-service reform outlined by Ed Miliband in his Hugo Young memorial lecture on 10 February. In an age of austerity, it is also among the most necessary.

As Burnham points out: “People will often say, ‘Oh, integration – it all sounds quite fluffy, quite nice, but are there are any real savings there?’ Monitor are talking about £6bn as the potential gain from integration. That’s got to be taken before anyone asks anybody for anything else.”

Now he just needs to make sure that Leigh gets that railway station.

Good luck with that :roll:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...%E2%80%99t-have-blanket-position-hs2%E2%80%9D

On a serious note Ed Milliband needs to show some leadership on this issue soon or Labour lead councils in the north may start a conflict with the Westminster leadership as being out of touch.

 

[NotATrainspott]

An interview in the New Statesman with Andy Burnham where they discuss HS2



Good luck with that :roll:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...%E2%80%99t-have-blanket-position-hs2%E2%80%9D

On a serious note Ed Milliband needs to show some leadership on this issue soon or Labour lead councils in the north may start a conflict with the Westminster leadership as being out of touch.

Wigan North Western is the HS2 station he is demanding. It will have classic-compatibles travel south for only a handful of kilometres on classic lines before going on to HS2 for the rest of the journey south. Either he is ignorant about what HS2 actually is, has and does or he is deliberately stoking resentment against the scheme for nefarious reasons. The HS2 depot there will create quite a few jobs for his constituency, both during construction and during operation.

His comments also make clear why HS2 Ltd needs to do more to persuade people why the scheme is happening. All people see is a shiny new toy that passes by their towns and villages with no benefit to themselves, as they are not being told of how it would drastically improve their local services (or even provide the capacity to create them in the first place).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Wigan North Western is the HS2 station he is demanding. It will have classic-compatibles travel south for only a handful of kilometres on classic lines before going on to HS2 for the rest of the journey south. Either he is ignorant about what HS2 actually is, has and does or he is deliberately stoking resentment against the scheme for nefarious reasons. The HS2 depot there will create quite a few jobs for his constituency, both during construction and during operation.


His comments also make clear why HS2 Ltd needs to do more to persuade people why the scheme is happening. All people see is a shiny new toy that passes by their towns and villages with no benefit to themselves, as they are not being told of how it would drastically improve their local services (or even provide the capacity to create them in the first place).

I'm not sure that's quite fair. Andy Burnham specifically mentioned Leigh. Leigh has no local rail services full stop. So definitely no local services that could benefit from HS2! Nor is there any indication that it will get any services as a result of HS2. In this regard Andy does have a bit of a point when he talks about asking people to pay taxes to support rail services if they aren't getting any. But, having said that, the solution, obviously, is not to oppose HS2, but to do something about getting some local rail services to Leigh as well.

 

[The Ham]

I'm not sure that's quite fair. Andy Burnham specifically mentioned Leigh. Leigh has no local rail services full stop. So definitely no local services that could benefit from HS2! Nor is there any indication that it will get any services as a result of HS2. In this regard Andy does have a bit of a point when he talks about asking people to pay taxes to support rail services if they aren't getting any. But, having said that, the solution, obviously, is not to oppose HS2, but to do something about getting some local rail services to Leigh as well.

If all they need to get them to support it is a station, build them a station and then when its running have no trains ever stopping there. It would be a lot cheaper then building any other rail provision!

 

[po8crg]

I was having a look at Leigh options. I'll raise a thread in the main Infrastructure forum for Leigh rail options.

(the transport for Leigh option that Burnham has attached himself to is mad: http://www.transportforleigh.org.uk/TFL/Leigh_HS2_Interchange.html )

Yes, that really is an HS2 captive station in Leigh, with the LMR diverted into the town!

 

[6Gman]

If Burnham doesn't want a HS2 depot in Leigh we're quite happy to have it in Crewe.

Jobs!!!!

 

[po8crg]

I've put up a thread for non-HS2 options in Leigh here

For anyone in need of a laugh, the HS2 station at Leigh scheme that Burnham is in favour of:

 

[MidlandMainlie]

A more positive note from the Shafow Chancellor on HS2 me thinks

Ed Balls: New HS2 boss must prove he's got a grip on costs

Mr Balls said HS2 had been “mismanaged” thus far, and he needs to be convinced by a report on Monday by former London Olympics supremo Sir David Higgins that it is cost efficient.

It is thought that Sir David is going to suggest building the high-speed line faster to save money, with a £42 billion bill often being singled out for criticism.

Speaking to the Post, Mr Balls said he will be keen to see the detail.

He said: “The fact is David Cameron and George Osborne have really mismanaged this project.

“They have let the costs get out of control, they have not properly made the case, so we will see what Mr Higgins reports.

“I hope he has got a grip on costs and I hope he is going be able to show that his is a project that will deliver value for money and solve the capacity problems, which are an issue.

“We have always said we want to see this investment go ahead, but I have always said the costs have got to be under control. There is not a blank cheque, and I am hoping that Mr Higgins will produce a good report.”

A report in the Financial Times claims Sir David will recommend a U-turn on plans for Euston station in London.

Plans for Euston were scaled back to last year to cut costs in the face of political controversy over the apparently escalating price tag. The former London Olympics boss is expected to say original plans should be reinstated and funded by private sector developments.

The second phase of the project, from Birmingham to Leeds and Manchester, is currently set to follow on after phase one, the London-Birmingham section, and bringing it forward would mean more legislation through Parliament.

Under the current programme, phase one should be completed in 2026 and phase two in 2033.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/business/business-news/ed-balls-new-hs2-boss-6833724

I suppose the report on Monday will go a long way towards addressing Ed Balls concerns about "rising costs" and "no blank cheque", wouldn't be surprised if he and Labour try to take credit by putting pressure on government to bring the costs of the scheme down. :roll:

 

[jon0844]

Ed is definitely going to make people assume the costs have been brought down because of his tough stance (and the Labour party in general) on the issue.

A good PR win I'd say.

Total nonsense, of course, but who cares?!

 

[MidlandMainlie]

The Guardian have now published the Ed Balls full comments on HS2 during an interview earlier today.

Ed Balls: HS2 costs must 'come down markedly'
Shadow chancellor intervenes on high speed rail line by calling for cut in costs and rethink on line north of Birmingham

His remarks ahead of Monday's big report into bringing down the costs of the project – commissioned by the government and to be published by the HS2 chairman Sir David Higgins – will be variously interpreted.

The Financial Times reported on Thursday that Higgins has found ways to reduce the costs. He is expected to urge all political parties to swing behind the project, including the need for all parties to get behind the legislation on both phases so it can be pushed through parliament as quickly as possibly after the next election.

The remarks by Balls will be interpreted by some as a threat to some of the thinking behind HS2, especially its second phase, as well as a warning that he is not going to be a soft touch. It may also be that he is seeking to take some of the credit for the government acting to bring down the costs. This will be seen as a signal of his determination to be a tough chancellor, focused on value for money.

Balls who appeared to question the future of the line from London to Birmingham and beyond when he told the Labour conference last year that he would not follow the government's "irresponsible" approach.

His latest remarks will be closely scrutinised by investors to see what he is saying. The Guardian as a result has published the remarks by Balls on HS2 in full.

When I made my conference speech I raised big issues about cost control, mismanagement, value for money and said we wanted to be sure it was the best way to spend the money. That intervention was a wake up call for David Cameron and George Osborne. It made them realise that they couldn't just let this project drift and the costs rise. As a result of that, they commissioned David Higgins to do this piece of work which we will see on Monday. We will have to wait to see what he proposes.

I really hope he shows – certainly on the first phase of the project, the one where the legislation applies – he has got a proper grip on management and costs, that the costs have come down markedly. I hope he will give some reassurance and restore some credibility to the management of the project. But we now know that on the first phase of this project up to Birmingham – which is fundamentally about dealing with a big capacity challenge – that the committee stage of this legislation is going to last well into the next parliament. The final decisions at royal assent will be for the next Labour government on the basis that we are elected.

We will see what David Higgins says on Monday. But it is my job to make sure, at every stage through the passage of the bill, that costs are being controlled, they are coming down not up, the assumptions about passenger numbers continue to be robust and borne out by the latest evidence.

Through the passage of this bill HS2 and parliament needs to know – certainly if I am the chancellor rather than George Osborne making the final decisions on this project – there is not going to be a blank cheque, that pressure needs to continue to be applied. I hope David Higgins will show that he's got a grip on the project, but I am going to continue – I think it is my job and duty – that pressure in the coming months and into the next parliament.

It is about cost control and value for money and it is about being sure that we are doing everything we can to make sure we get the best outcome for not just the taxpayer on value for money but also for jobs and growth and all the regional economies of the UK.

I do think there are some big questions about whether or not what is currently proposed in phase two properly links into the wider transport and economic networks. I was a member of the Northern Way taskforce for a number of years in the last decade. There was a big focus there on East-West links – Newcastle, Hull and Liverpool - all being connected into the Leeds/Manchester big conurbation. Clearly links to London is an important factor, but it is not the only important factor in investment and job creation for the north of England.

If we are going to be putting in place investments on this scale we need to know that we are getting the best bang for our buck, the best connectivity, the best outcome for jobs and growth, the best outcome for the economies of the north.

I am hoping that David Higgins, on Monday and in the coming months, will strengthen the evidence based on that, and will challenge Network Rail. In the old days he would have been working with the regional development agencies but they have been abolished. We need to know that this is really going to work to get the maximum benefit.

The principle is should we have big investment in transport for the benefit of jobs and growth in the norther economies of Britain. I am totally signed up to the principle of that. I just want to make sure this is being done in the best way. I think the evidence base needs to be strengthened.

The link to London is not the only link which matters. We mustn't take too London-centric a view, but being linked into good strong capacity fast networks, including to London, is very important. But I think we shouldn't only be looking at the detail of routes. We should be asking the bigger questions. I am not sure they have been asked clearly enough yet.​

Interesting comments on phase 2, don't see how it can better connected to the wider network with stations at Manchester Picadilly, Manchester Airport, Toton (with wider links to the East Midlands) Meadowhall linking Sheffield and South Yorkshire and Leeds New Lane with a link to Leeds station plus links to the WCML and ECML so that classic comparable services can use the existing rail network to call at Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow, Edinburgh plus several smaller stations in between. Throw in a station at Crewe at HS2 is as well connected to the classic network as it can be.

Then there is the Transpennine North Electrification to improve connections between between major cities in the North. The whole interview shows the man knows nothing about rail in the North despite representing a constituency in the North.

 

[Altnabreac]

The Guardian have now published the Ed Balls full comments on HS2 during an interview earlier today.



Interesting comments on phase 2, don't see how it can better connected to the wider network with stations at Manchester Picadilly, Manchester Airport, Toton (with wider links to the East Midlands) Meadowhall linking Sheffield and South Yorkshire and Leeds New Lane with a link to Leeds station plus links to the WCML and ECML so that classic comparable services can use the existing rail network to call at Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow, Edinburgh plus several smaller stations in between. Throw in a station at Crewe at HS2 is as well connected to the classic network as it can be.

Then there is the Transpennine North Electrification to improve connections between between major cities in the North. The whole interview shows the man knows nothing about rail in the North despite representing a constituency in the North.

Agreed. It's all good politics but there's no substance to his remarks. What are the big questions that haven't been asked yet?

Still if the response of Higgins is to speed up phase 2 then at least something positive will come out of all the posturing.

 

[po8crg]

Connection to the LMR at Culcheth would improve links to Liverpool.

Metals-to-metals in Birmingham would improve XC services along the Bristol-York axis (trains stopping Bristol, Birmingham NS, Birmingham CS, Birmingham Interchange, E Mids Hub, Meadowhall, Leeds New Lane, York in the middle of a journey from, say, Penzance to Edinburgh)

Might even be some scope for a metals-to-metals connection at Trent Junction for e.g. the Manchester-Nottingham-Norwich service that EMT run, though I don't actually know if there's a chord allowing trains to cross from HS2-W to HS2-E, and adding that chord would be expensive if not already planned.

How much would the time difference be between a captive spur to Liverpool and using the LMR? It's a pretty short stretch of track.

 

[edwin_m]

There's no Leeds to Manchester curve where the two routes diverge near Water Orton. Even with the higher speed, any journey between major centres via such a curve would be uncompetitive with the classic route.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

In all the Media reports on the Higgins plan I found this comment in the Guardian.

The shadow transport secretary, Mary Creagh, said: "We support HS2 because of the capacity constraints too many commuters on our railways face and will vote to support the hybrid bill at second reading when the government finally brings it to parliament.

Hooray!

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/17/hs2-benefits-north-six-years-earlier-chairman