Knock-on Delays

[Legolash2o]

Hi,

Does anyone know how Network Rail deal with delays and detecting what other trains will be impacted by an initial delay?

What options do they have? I.e. cancel trains.

What power and tools do they have to resolve them? I.e. tell an freight operator not to run a train.

Thanks

 

[bramling]

Hi,

Does anyone know how Network Rail deal with delays and detecting what other trains will be impacted by an initial delay?

What options do they have? I.e. cancel trains.

What power and tools do they have to resolve them? I.e. tell an freight operator not to run a train.

Thanks

You may need to be a little more specific with the question, however most things will be dealt with by the TOC controllers.

That job is very much a black art, there’s loads of factors to be considered which will inform what choices are made.

Generally I suspect those in the field will agree that crewing is probably the most significant factor in determining what happens. Essentially you have to get crews to their relief point at the booked time if at all possible, especially if their duty involved them then going on to pick up another train (to avoid a consequential delay or cancellation). There are also factors to consider like depot requirements (if a particular train needs to finish at a particular location) or stock balance (ensuring each stabling point finishes up with the right number of each type of train at the end of the day) - these factors increase in importance as the day progresses.

Those are the biggest factors which will shape decisions, obviously balanced with trying to ensure the best service in the meantime.

Taking into consideration all the above, options might include
* Terminating a train short so it can commence its next journey on time or to help get the driver to relief point on time (but cannot readily be done if the driver is due to be relieved at the originally booked destination)
* Omit stops to save time
* Miss a round trip altogether
* Reform the train into something else, normally at a relief point when a fresh crew is involved. Especially on suburban or metro routes it might be possible to do a complex set of make-ups, perhaps with a termination thrown in. You might choose to make one train very late and turn it short or miss a round trip if it allows several others to be made right time or near enough that the lateness will recover naturally.

As an example, if you have four trains all running 15 minutes late a few minutes apart and your crew relief point is 15 minutes from the terminus. You can’t turn round all four trains as there isn’t the track capacity to do it. So make the first train of the four into the second, make the second into the third, make the third into the fourth, and make the fourth train into the first and turn it short, you’ve now got four trains on time at the cost of just one inconvenience. The snag is you can only do it if you have a fresh crew for the first of the line.

That’s it really. It’s a black art, and balancing all the many factors together certainly makes it a job not for the faint hearted!

 

[Legolash2o]

That's a great reply, thanks!

Surely they can't omit a stop as passengers may need to get off at that location?
Can they go to a freight/passenger company and say "Sorry, your train ain't running"?

Are you aware of what tools and data they would have access to? I don't necessarily mean specific tool names. More like, would they easily be able to see which trains will be impacted, the consist of the train, or anything that aids their planning.

Thanks again.

 

[ComUtoR]

Surely they can't omit a stop as passengers may need to get off at that location?

Signaller called me yesterday...

Sorry Driver, due to a Track Circuit Failure I'm sending you round the slow to XX. You will not be calling at YY. Skip stops, diversions etc are day to day occurances.

 

[The Planner]

Are you aware of what tools and data they would have access to? I don't necessarily mean specific tool names. More like, would they easily be able to see which trains will be impacted, the consist of the train, or anything that aids their planning.

Thanks again.

Yes, pretty much all of that can be dealt with with legacy systems such as TRUST, CCF etc. You could arguably do it to an extent with Realtimetrains, Opentraintimes etc and the maps.

 

[Legolash2o]

Thanks both for the replies

Signaller called me yesterday...

Sorry Driver, due to a Track Circuit Failure I'm sending you round the slow to XX. You will not be calling at YY. Skip stops, diversions etc are day to day occurances.

I bet that would annoy any passengers! I can understand why that decision was made though.

Yes, pretty much all of that can be dealt with with legacy systems such as TRUST, CCF etc. You could arguably do it to an extent with Realtimetrains, Opentraintimes etc and the maps.

The maps?

 

[The Planner]

Thanks both for the replies



I bet that would annoy any passengers! I can understand why that decision was made though.



The maps?

Yes, the maps in Opentraintimes and other various open data sites, they show you where the trains are pretty much as a signaller see's it.

 

[bramling]

That's a great reply, thanks!

Surely they can't omit a stop as passengers may need to get off at that location?
Can they go to a freight/passenger company and say "Sorry, your train ain't running"?

Are you aware of what tools and data they would have access to? I don't necessarily mean specific tool names. More like, would they easily be able to see which trains will be impacted, the consist of the train, or anything that aids their planning.

Thanks again.

Missing stops comes in two forms usually. It may be done at zero notice to get round a problem, say the train needs to use a set of points to reach a platform and they are failing in the wrong position, then skipping that stop may be the only option to keep things moving. Naturally the passenger impact would have to be considered, and if necessary alternative arrangements made.

The other time will be when missing one or more stops allows time to be made up, in which case the passengers should be told beforehand. Again some thought should be given to the impacts, and perhaps alternative arrangements made.

Normally control staff would have access to the signal diagrams and train running data, so can make decisions based on how late a train is. However the bulk of the job can be done using such old-school paper documentation as timetables, unit diagrams and most importantly crew diagrams. People might be surprised how much is done by pencil and paper!

 

[Legolash2o]

This all great information, thanks everyone!

Last question (I hope). How easy and how much work is required to known what train will impact the next, and the one after that, and the one after that and so on? Train A will impact B, which then impacts C, and then D, etc.

Thanks again.

 

[The Planner]

This all great information, thanks everyone!

Last question (I hope). How easy and how much work is required to known what train will impact the next, and the one after that, and the one after that and so on? Train A will impact B, which then impacts C, and then D, etc.

Thanks again.

That aspect is harder the further you try and extrapolate out.

 

[Horizon22]

As @bramling says, it can be rather complex and completely dependent on the particular location, circumstances, time and severity of the incident in question. The same issue at the same place can have totally different and lingering impacts if its at 9am or 9pm.

Staff use CCF, Trust and other TOC specific tools which will tell you next train workings, crew diagrams etc. so you can see what the potential impact would be on breaks, whether X train is required at Y at the end of the day. Options controllers have are:

- Outright cancel a train; leave it at the origin for next working - often an option on metro services with short turnarounds and suitable platform availability
- "Skip stops" or "run fast"; omit several stops to make up the time. Usually if there's another service that either a) calls at those stations anyway and due to the lateness of train A, its getting close to train B departure time. b) additional calls on train B if it's running to time.
- Terminate a train early; if there is a suitable turnaround point on route to make this happen and platform availabbility
- "Swap" the train; Train A arrival becomes Train B departure and vice versa. More complex as you have to check stock and crew to ensure it matches, but can allow right time running without anything obviously amiss to the passenger (unless of course it shortforms the service).
- Reroute a train; If there's an infrastruture issue this will allow trains to run but may add delay.

This all great information, thanks everyone!

Last question (I hope). How easy and how much work is required to known what train will impact the next, and the one after that, and the one after that and so on? Train A will impact B, which then impacts C, and then D, etc.

Thanks again.

The million dollar question! It's very hard to be competely accurate. You can estimate but with so many potential conflicting junctions and points on route and the potential to encounter other late running, it is hard to say. Trains running through New St for example could have delays arriving due to a incident anywhere in the country. Signallers in normal running have panel instructions about giving "preference" to certain trains especially in congested areas which can assist. Contingency plans are normally in place between TOCs & NR so that if X issue occurs, then Y services will be cancelled / terminated short, but these are guides and every incident on the railway requires a unique evaluation.

Cutting down residual delay is often a key aspect in good disruption response; you don't want delays lingering on for hours and hours. Also being proactive and evaluating what potential any incident may have. It's never dull!

Edit: spelling

 

[bramling]

This all great information, thanks everyone!

Last question (I hope). How easy and how much work is required to known what train will impact the next, and the one after that, and the one after that and so on? Train A will impact B, which then impacts C, and then D, etc.

Thanks again.

In theory it's very easy.

Look at the unit diagram and see how late the train is, and decide how late it's going to be at the destination (so essentially how late it is at that moment minus any opportunity to make up time (e.g. allowances and station stand time), then look at how much turnround time there is at the destination - there will likely to be an element of experience involved in making that judgement call as it's by no means a given that recovery time will guarantee lost time can be readily recovered). Then look at the crew diagram and identify which locations the train is booked to have a crew relief, and look at what the driver (and guard, where applicable) is booked to do next. If they're due to finish then no issue, if they're due to pick up another train then again it's a case of working out if the late running means this may be at risk, and planning a strategy to deal with that. Ideally that strategy may well be to get the original train back on time so the relief occurs on time, alternatively it may be a case of using a spare driver to pick up the driver's next service, or accepting that the following service will just have to take a delay (but now you might be blocking a platform?!)...

As I say this is very easy in theory, but the further you look ahead the more difficult it becomes. Meanwhile the controller will of course be overseeing multiple trains, and with other stuff going on at the same time to divert attention away. As I said elsewhere, very much a black art.

In general, for something like a London commuter operator the focus will be to let the morning peak run as far as possible (especially key with-flow commuter services), then sort out issues afterwards - with a focus on recovering the service, and ensuring depots get the right trains on the inter-peak stablers as far as possible. Then sort out the service in time for the evening peak, there's a window of recovery opportunity during the mid afternoon as there will be a glut of fresh drivers booking on, so giving opportunities to do things. From the evening peak onwards the main focus will then be on ensuring last trains run, again ensuring depots get the trains they want, and ensuring stabling points are filled up with the correct quantities of stock. Whilst you'll note the passenger isn't really mentioned in a lot of this, remember there's no point in giving a faultless service today if the depots don't get the trains they need and they can't provide you with any serviceable trains tomorrow.

 

[Horizon22]

In theory it's very easy.


As I say this is very easy in theory, but the further you look ahead the more difficult it becomes. Meanwhile the controller will of course be overseeing multiple trains, and with other stuff going on at the same time to divert attention away. As I said elsewhere, very much a black art.

Quite; in theory! Additionally at places where platform dispatch is involved, is there a conflict for staff to physically dispatch a train? Will it get stuck behind a stopping service? The worst is when a platform is blocked because a train is awaiting train crew relief, and the relief are on a train outside awaiting an available platform...

 

[uww11x]

In the freight world serious incidents will go under MFSDD where freights are retimed/cancelled to mitigate delays.

Link here shows how delays should be managed http://www.delayattributionboard.co.uk/documents/dag_pdac/April 2020 DAPR.pdf

 

[bramling]

Quite; in theory! Additionally at places where platform dispatch is involved, is there a conflict for staff to physically dispatch a train? Will it get stuck behind a stopping service? The worst is when a platform is blocked because a train is awaiting train crew relief, and the relief are on a train outside awaiting an available platform...

Agreed. One general point to add, is that it's one of those jobs for which it's very difficult to train people for. A considerable amount of expertise comes via experience, and in all honesty trial and error. This is something which does cause some level of conflict especially with drivers, who sometimes forget that the controller is busy looking at a big list of trains, so it simply isn't possible to always find the optimum solution for *their* own specific train.

 

[Legolash2o]

My mind is blown! I think this is great reading and helpful. I got the feeling train crew is the largest obstacle for fixing the delays.

Thanks to everyone, appreciated. Feel free to keep adding more if you think of anything. I'd love to learn everything I can about it.

 

[ComUtoR]

My mind is blown! I think this is great reading and helpful. I got the feeling train crew is the largest obstacle for fixing the delays.

What makes you say that ?

 

[Legolash2o]

I'm hoping I've not misinterpreted some stuff.

But from reading the comments above and a research paper. Crew diagrams (making sure you have staff available) is a very hard thing to do when trains aren't running as planned. In comparison and I could be wrong, cancelling a train is a lot easier. Diversions may be a bit more trickier, as you'll have to make sure a train has the right paperwork i.e. a freight train and any RT3973, SoC forms, etc.

 

[43055]

This all great information, thanks everyone!

Last question (I hope). How easy and how much work is required to known what train will impact the next, and the one after that, and the one after that and so on? Train A will impact B, which then impacts C, and then D, etc.

Thanks again.

It all really depends on a situation but to give a real life example at Derby if a long distance (125mph voyager or HST) Cross country service is running late the next service towards Birmingham (100mph class 170) may be held a few mins to give the later running service a clear path. Not sure if this is decided by the signaler or a control but it could well be made as far back as Chesterfield or Sheffield and seeing how late the service is departing these places.

 

[6Gman]

My mind is blown! I think this is great reading and helpful. I got the feeling train crew is the largest obstacle for fixing the delays.

Thanks to everyone, appreciated. Feel free to keep adding more if you think of anything. I'd love to learn everything I can about it.

One of the reasons why rail operating is a fascinating subject. And why many of us love/ loved being involved in it.



When people find out I'm interested in railways they tend to assume it means I'd rush out to see Flying Scotsman or love a ride on the Severn Valley Railway. (Other locomotives and heritage railways are available.) But I'm much more interested, for example, in how they managed to move so many people through Cornwall in the 1950s given the constraints of the system - track and station layouts, loco capabilities and restrictions, rolling stock balancing etc. etc. The colour, and name, of what's on the front - not so much.

 

[6Gman]

I'm hoping I've not misinterpreted some stuff.

But from reading the comments above and a research paper. Crew diagrams (making sure you have staff available) is a very hard thing to do when trains aren't running as planned. In comparison and I could be wrong, cancelling a train is a lot easier. Diversions may be a bit more trickier, as you'll have to make sure a train has the right paperwork i.e. a freight train and any RT3973, SoC forms, etc.

Not if the traincrew# have an important return working (or need to get home in their hours). Or the unit is heading to its fuelling point and cancelling the train means it will start work tomorrow with insufficient fuel to get it through the day (toilet emptying not quite as crucial, but not good if it means it spends hours locked out of use). It's like real world six-dimensional chess. But we'd want it no other way.

#Or traincrew using it to ride passenger to a return working.

 

[Bald Rick]

What makes you say that ?

I think the poster meant managing train crew resources, which is usually the hardest part of managing the service around a big incident.

 

[bramling]

What makes you say that ?

He is sort of on to something though, as if you didn’t have to worry about duty schedules then in theory every train could just be renumbered up to where each service should be in the timetable, especially on routes where the rolling stock is all identical.

It’s one reason why automating mainline trains isn’t that fruitful. To get the big benefit you need to dispense with on-board staff altogether. The moment you still have to allocate a driver with all the complications of duty scheduling it becomes pointless, unless in a specialised metro application where one needs the extra throughout ATO can deliver.

 

[Horizon22]

He is sort of on to something though, as if you didn’t have to worry about duty schedules then in theory every train could just be renumbered up to where each service should be in the timetable, especially on routes where the rolling stock is all identical.

It’s one reason why automating mainline trains isn’t that fruitful. To get the big benefit you need to dispense with on-board staff altogether. The moment you still have to allocate a driver with all the complications of duty scheduling it becomes pointless, unless in a specialised metro application where one needs the extra throughout ATO can deliver.

Unless you have loads of spares sitting around - and yes I have had this argument with passengers before...

 

[Legolash2o]

I think the poster meant managing train crew resources, which is usually the hardest part of managing the service around a big incident.

Yes.

He is sort of on to something though, as if you didn’t have to worry about duty schedules then in theory every train could just be renumbered up to where each service should be in the timetable, especially on routes where the rolling stock is all identical.

It’s one reason why automating mainline trains isn’t that fruitful. To get the big benefit you need to dispense with on-board staff altogether. The moment you still have to allocate a driver with all the complications of duty scheduling it becomes pointless, unless in a specialised metro application where one needs the extra throughout ATO can deliver.

Agreed about the on-board staff but they bring a lot of value and I would feel a lot more safer with an actual driver onboard who can react to situations if needed. I'm saying that as a Computer Scientist as well!

 

[IanXC]

It all really depends on a situation but to give a real life example at Derby if a long distance (125mph voyager or HST) Cross country service is running late the next service towards Birmingham (100mph class 170) may be held a few mins to give the later running service a clear path. Not sure if this is decided by the signaler or a control but it could well be made as far back as Chesterfield or Sheffield and seeing how late the service is departing these places.

Of course another variation is whether an amendment to the delayed service can or cannot result in it making up enough time to get to the point a stopper is supposed to follow it from, or at least reduce the delay to the stopper. If it can't then you probably don't want to also break the stopper, but do something more brutal to the late running express...

And let's not mention the impact of single line sections(!)

 

[edwin_m]

Network Rail has spent quite a lot on "traffic management systems" in certain areas, which are intended to project forward what is happening and test the effect of alternative courses of action. I'm not too sure how much benefit they've actually delivered.

 

[43055]

Of course another variation is whether an amendment to the delayed service can or cannot result in it making up enough time to get to the point a stopper is supposed to follow it from, or at least reduce the delay to the stopper. If it can't then you probably don't want to also break the stopper, but do something more brutal to the late running express...

And let's not mention the impact of single line sections(!)

Very true. I have never seen it more than 5 mins for holding a 170 service at Derby in the station by which point if it gets a good run into Birmingham it will probably be close to being on time out of Birmingham if its going to Cardiff. Although I was once held for 10 mins on the slows just outside Derby for a delayed Reading service but then again the 170 was only going to Birmingham and it probably wouldn't affect the return working.