Kirkstall Forge & Apperley Bridge

[ASharpe]

As the timetables have finally been posted I was eager to see what's running. There's no clue at all in the timetables as to which trains will be calling at them - still less when they will call. Back to the waiting.

They are missing on the Carlisle/Morecambe timetable pages of the Airedale timetable. That could be just to save paper (it would be a tight fit), or it could mean that none of those trains will be stopping.

I'm moving back to Yorkshire in September for a job in Bradford, and a good service from Apperly Bridge to Bradford would make me very tempted to look at living in that area. (My current plan is to live in Halifax)

 

[crehld]

They are missing on the Carlisle/Morecambe timetable pages of the Airedale timetable. That could be just to save paper (it would be a tight fit), or it could mean that none of those trains will be stopping.)

Why would the Carlisle / Morecambe trains stop there? There's no reason for them to.

 

[Bantamzen]

As the timetables have finally been posted I was eager to see what's running. There's no clue at all in the timetables as to which trains will be calling at them - still less when they will call. Back to the waiting.

The Forster Square - Leeds trains have been retimed to leave FS a minute earlier. I would imagine that one of these will become the inital stopper at Apperley Bridge. It would be rather odd for them not to given that Apperley Bridge is within Bradford.

 

[Deerfold]

They are missing on the Carlisle/Morecambe timetable pages of the Airedale timetable. That could be just to save paper (it would be a tight fit), or it could mean that none of those trains will be stopping.

I'm moving back to Yorkshire in September for a job in Bradford, and a good service from Apperly Bridge to Bradford would make me very tempted to look at living in that area. (My current plan is to live in Halifax)

I'd very suprised if any of the Carlisle or Morecambe services stopped at the new stations - they'd tend to be in the way of the next electric train behind them if they did.

Apart from the stops in the long distance timetable the only other place any of these trains stop in West Yorkshire is a handful of with-peak trains at Steeton and Silsden.

 

[crehld]

I'd very suprised if any of the Carlisle or Morecambe services stopped at the new stations - they'd tend to be in the way of the next electric train behind them if they did.

Apart from the stops in the long distance timetable the only other place any of these trains stop in West Yorkshire is a handful of with-peak trains at Steeton and Silsden.

I'd prefer it if they only stopped at Keighley and only then as pick up / set down to stop those of us who live beyond Skipton being prevented from boarding at Leeds because the train is full of those going to Shipley and Bingley!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd prefer it if they only stopped at Keighley and only then as pick up / set down to stop those of us who live beyond Skipton being prevented from boarding at Leeds because the train is full of those going to Shipley and Bingley!

Steeton and Silsden gets rather inflated usage due to being the boundary station.

Back to the new stations, it seems bizarre that only one of the 2tph Leeds to Bradford services will call, given that surely they both run to the same schedule. Unless one calls at Apperley Bridge and the other at Kirkstall Forge, in which case this might be the first case of adjacent stations opening pretty much simultaneously but with no regular service between the two.

 

[Bantamzen]

Back to the new stations, it seems bizarre that only one of the 2tph Leeds to Bradford services will call, given that surely they both run to the same schedule. Unless one calls at Apperley Bridge and the other at Kirkstall Forge, in which case this might be the first case of adjacent stations opening pretty much simultaneously but with no regular service between the two.

That could be the case. I can't see there being much flow between the two new stations. Kirkstall will more likely be to and from Leeds, and Apperley a mix of Bradford & Leeds bound traffic.

 

[Deerfold]

Steeton and Silsden gets rather inflated usage due to being the boundary station.

Back to the new stations, it seems bizarre that only one of the 2tph Leeds to Bradford services will call, given that surely they both run to the same schedule. Unless one calls at Apperley Bridge and the other at Kirkstall Forge, in which case this might be the first case of adjacent stations opening pretty much simultaneously but with no regular service between the two.

Do we know that it's always the Leeds to Bradford services calling? There were indications earlier in the thread that some of the calls could be by Ilkley trains.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That could be the case. I can't see there being much flow between the two new stations. Kirkstall will more likely be to and from Leeds, and Apperley a mix of Bradford & Leeds bound traffic.

I'd agree, but I did think it was rather an unusual situation nonetheless!

AIUI the business case for the station was based on 2 services per hour to both Bradford and Leeds. Perhaps that's a good way of earning funding from the DfT: promise a high-frequency service that will boost demand, get the shack built, then announce that the service will not be quite as frequent!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

There were indications earlier in the thread that some of the calls could be by Ilkley trains.

The new Wharfedale timetable includes Kirkstall Forge with the same disclaimers as the Airedale and Leeds-Bradford summary, so make of that what you will.

It's odd how different bodies cover new stations: SWT for example list all the times for Cranbrook station, which is due to open in summer, with a different colour and footnote explaining the situation. Also saves having to reissue timetables when they do open.

 

[bluenoxid]

The new Wharfedale timetable includes Kirkstall Forge with the same disclaimers as the Airedale and Leeds-Bradford summary, so make of that what you will.

It's odd how different bodies cover new stations: SWT for example list all the times for Cranbrook station, which is due to open in summer, with a different colour and footnote explaining the situation. Also saves having to reissue timetables when they do open.

It is odd, although Cranbrook is several months late

 

[Deerfold]

The new Wharfedale timetable includes Kirkstall Forge with the same disclaimers as the Airedale and Leeds-Bradford summary, so make of that what you will.

It's odd how different bodies cover new stations: SWT for example list all the times for Cranbrook station, which is due to open in summer, with a different colour and footnote explaining the situation. Also saves having to reissue timetables when they do open.

Back in the day when station openings in West Yorkshire were common, they used to include the station with times in the new timetable with a note saying to look out for when the station would open.

 

[johntea]

Think Northern need to modify the automated announcements on the 08:32, she's adamant we're still off to Frizinghall

The conductor having to clear that error up every morning can't be a great long term solution!

 

[BantamMenace]

Where are we up to with these now, all gone a bit quiet on here and it's been a while since i travelled past due to being at university?

Anybody know an opening date or a milestone date?

Are we any closer to knowing calling patterns?

 

[Deerfold]

Where are we up to with these now, all gone a bit quiet on here and it's been a while since i travelled past due to being at university?

Anybody know an opening date or a milestone date?

Are we any closer to knowing calling patterns?

As of March, Metro were saying August 2015 for Apperley Bridge and October 2015 for Kirkstall Forge. They've given no updates since then.

 

[Grumpy]

Where are we up to with these now, all gone a bit quiet on here and it's been a while since i travelled past due to being at university?

Passed on the train today. Unfortunately the trains pass the sites at a fair speed so you only get a quick view. The down platform at Kirkstall seemed to be clearly formed and similarly the up but both still need a fair bit of work to be usable. Presumably they also need a footbridge/lift installation. The real question at Kirkstall is why bother if none of the housing/commercial development exists, and indeed will there be access through the site to the platforms?
At Apperley I only saw the up platform but again this is clearly formed and it looked like the brickwork facing the track was complete. Perhaps just needs surfacing and furniture delivering. Couldn't see the rest of the site.

 

[bluenoxid]

I was in the area yesterday and quite bemused at the lack of open access to the Kirkstall site. However with four months to go I'm not too worried. Any access is going to be through a construction site. It does make a nice change to complete the station before the development. I bet those living at Wixams wished the same had happened to them.

 

[Condor7]

I went to have a look at Apperley Bridge station's progress today.

The Aire Valley line is a very busy line especially with passenger trains, and I always assumed that capacity would be reaching it's maximum in the not to distant future.

However this used route used to have four tracks and although it has been two tracks for a long time now, I did always wonder if passenger numbers continued to grow as they are doing, if they might consider relaying the other two tracks, as for most of the journey the old track beds are still in place.

I notice though that the northern platform is build over the old track bed and presume Kirkstall may well be the same.

Would relaying the old track be so wildly unrealistic that no consideration has been taken to doing this, or have they some how future proofed the sighting of the northern platforms?

 

[30907]

To justify 4 tracks you would need more than 12 trains in a peak hour (supposing a 15 min service at Kirkstall and Apperley Br which is WY standard aspiration) through Thackley Tunnel. That's double the current peak service, and by then you'd be having problems at Shipley Leeds Jn as well (mind you, that used to be quadruple too...). Not sure it's a real issue.

 

[BantamMenace]

One hell of a lot easier to extend to 6-car working first. Shipley P1, P2 and P5 are the hardest of all the Aire and Wharfe platforms and they're by no means insurmountable.

Frizinghall, Saltaire, Crossflatts, Steeton & Silsden, Cononley, Guiseley, Menston and Ben Rhydding should be a doddle.

Burley-in-Wharfedale and Baildon a little tougher due to things in close proximity to the line.

Bingley, Keighley, Bradford FS, Leeds, Shipley P3 and P4, Skipton and Ilkley are already long enough.

Give me £50m and 30 months i'll do the whole lot myself with change.

Stock 20 brand new 6-car units (regen braking, 3+2 seating, air con, wi-fi) with 333s cascaded for York locals, Harrogate locals, Huddersfield locals and Doncaster locals after electrification.

Option in tender to supply more 6-car units to do the same to the other Leeds commuter lines.

 

[bluenoxid]

The main issue is the OHLE in the way too. Six car running is the preference and until stock hits eight cars I cannot see much justification. Potentially a third track to support tidal flows could be an option.

Some relief might come from the plan to run trains through a Leeds Bradford Airport chord but that is a fairly far into the future option.

 

[BantamMenace]

Coal traffic to and from Scotland is dying a slow death as well so in future years freight shouldn't feature as heavily unless Yorkshire to Scotland intermodal takes off which i cant see happening.

 

[Grumpy]

One hell of a lot easier to extend to 6-car working first. Shipley P1, P2 and P5 are the hardest of all the Aire and Wharfe platforms and they're by no means insurmountable.

Frizinghall, Saltaire, Crossflatts, Steeton & Silsden, Cononley, Guiseley, Menston and Ben Rhydding should be a doddle.

Burley-in-Wharfedale and Baildon a little tougher due to things in close proximity to the line.

Bingley, Keighley, Bradford FS, Leeds, Shipley P3 and P4, Skipton and Ilkley are already long enough.

Give me £50m and 30 months i'll do the whole lot myself with change.

Stock 20 brand new 6-car units (regen braking, 3+2 seating, air con, wi-fi) with 333s cascaded for York locals, Harrogate locals, Huddersfield locals and Doncaster locals after electrification.

Option in tender to supply more 6-car units to do the same to the other Leeds commuter lines.

Might quibble with some of this, for example I cant see why extending the Burley down platform to the south would be a problem and similarly the up platform to the north.
However you're right about longer trains being the simple priority rather than the totally unnecessary thoughts re the wildly expensive 4 tracking and reopening tunnel bores. In a way these lines mirror the north Transpennine route-you don't really need to do much with the trackwork or run more trains, just lengthen existing trains. (possibly by buying new stock and/or cascading 185's) That should improve the profitability and the simple fact is the train manufacturers are more likely to be able to deliver than the railway infrastructure community.

Other than rolling stock the biggest deterrent to increased usage is car parking. Yesterday (Saturday) Shipley car park looked full at 10am when I walked through. Parking provision on the Wharfedale line is wholly inadequate. Probably need to relocate Ben Rhydding eastward and build a big car park. Similarly an additional station at White Cross to soak up the Menston/Guiseley motorists.
Again this mirrors TransPennine-for example the easiest way for travellers from the Keighley area to get to Manchester is to drive to Hebden Bridge and catch the train there-but again foiled by lack of parking. There has been much talk of an East Leeds Parkway station but arguably one on the West side would have more merit.

 

[deltic08]

Give me £50m and 30 months i'll do the whole lot myself with change.

Give me £50m and 15 months and I will reinstate the line from Harrogate to Ripon using those displaced class 333s with not much change.

 

[quantinghome]

Give me £50m and 15 months and I will reinstate the line from Harrogate to Ripon using those displaced class 333s with not much change.

I think you are being a little overoptimistic. Borders Rail is costing £300m for 30 miles, construction started in 2012, and it's not electrified.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However you're right about longer trains being the simple priority rather than the totally unnecessary thoughts re the wildly expensive 4 tracking and reopening tunnel bores.

As well as tunnel bores, there are buildings impinging on the old alignment near the junction with the Harrogate line, so full 4-tracking is a non-starter. However, if regular Bradford FS - Kings Cross services become a reality and local service frequencies continue to increase there may be justification for another loop somewhere between Kirkstall and Shipley. I noticed that the recent West Yorkshire station study looked at a station where the line crosses Leeds Ring Road. The conclusion was to wait and see how Apperley Bridge turns out. If such a station were to be progressed, it could be put on loops, although I think this could only be justified if the additional cost of this was allocated elsewhere e.g. the FS - KX service, as I doubt the BCR for the station would cope with such an increase.

Other than rolling stock the biggest deterrent to increased usage is car parking. Yesterday (Saturday) Shipley car park looked full at 10am when I walked through. Parking provision on the Wharfedale line is wholly inadequate. Probably need to relocate Ben Rhydding eastward and build a big car park. Similarly an additional station at White Cross to soak up the Menston/Guiseley motorists.

Surely it would be cheaper to expand the existing car parks than build a while new station? Apperley Bridge is about £5m - I appreciate there are space constraints at both Guiseley and Menston. A properly integrated, dedicated bus link from Menston station to Otley may help.

There has been much talk of an East Leeds Parkway station but arguably one on the West side would have more merit.

Step forward, Apperley Bridge and New Pudsey.

I understand that the purpose of an East Leeds Parkway is to reduce pressure on terminating platforms at Leeds by sending more local trains through the station instead.

 

[Deerfold]

A properly integrated, dedicated bus link from Menston station to Otley may help.

Like this one?


http://www.wymetro.com/BusTravel/bustimetables/Bustimetable/967

True, it's been extended to LBIA and renumbered since it was launched, but it generally leaves from the stop right next to the platform within 5 minutes of the train arriving.

Links in a morning could be improved though - though the 0827 departure from Menston is catered for nicely.

 

[quantinghome]

Like this one?


http://www.wymetro.com/BusTravel/bustimetables/Bustimetable/967

True, it's been extended to LBIA and renumbered since it was launched, but it generally leaves from the stop right next to the platform within 5 minutes of the train arriving.

Links in a morning could be improved though - though the 0827 departure from Menston is catered for nicely.

Well, that'll teach me to keep abreast of local developments. I hang my head in shame!

 

[Bantamzen]

One hell of a lot easier to extend to 6-car working first. Shipley P1, P2 and P5 are the hardest of all the Aire and Wharfe platforms and they're by no means insurmountable.

Frizinghall, Saltaire, Crossflatts, Steeton & Silsden, Cononley, Guiseley, Menston and Ben Rhydding should be a doddle.

Burley-in-Wharfedale and Baildon a little tougher due to things in close proximity to the line.

Bingley, Keighley, Bradford FS, Leeds, Shipley P3 and P4, Skipton and Ilkley are already long enough.

Give me £50m and 30 months i'll do the whole lot myself with change.

Stock 20 brand new 6-car units (regen braking, 3+2 seating, air con, wi-fi) with 333s cascaded for York locals, Harrogate locals, Huddersfield locals and Doncaster locals after electrification.

Option in tender to supply more 6-car units to do the same to the other Leeds commuter lines.

Baildon is fairly easy to do, just one pylon to work around or relocate behind the existing one to the south west of the platform (just looked as the 06:37 left for BDQ). Shipley as you say is the hardest, P1 and P2 could probably extend enough to the east, P5 might be the most difficult. P4 would be easy enough and P3 is long enough already.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Baildon is fairly easy to do, just one pylon to work around or relocate behind the existing one to the south west of the platform (just looked as the 06:37 left for BDQ). Shipley as you say is the hardest, P1 and P2 could probably extend enough to the east, P5 might be the most difficult. P4 would be easy enough and P3 is long enough already.

AIUI at Shipley it's P2 that's the problem. P5 would be tricky but there's less demand for longer trains on that axis. If it came to it it could be relocated to the opposite side of the tracks, though that would require a fair bit of work.

 

[Deerfold]

AIUI at Shipley it's P2 that's the problem. P5 would be tricky but there's less demand for longer trains on that axis. If it came to it it could be relocated to the opposite side of the tracks, though that would require a fair bit of work.

Though if you don't want long trains on P5 you'd have to recast the timetable so there's no Leeds - Skipton trains which then go to Bradford.