Kings Cross - New station

[Lee_Again]

I'll be the first to admit that I was very sceptical about the rebuild of Kings Cross. I could foresee overcrowding, conflicting movements of passengers and general confusion. However, now, I can't wait.

Over the last few weeks more and more of the new structures are coming in to view and more importantly it is now clear how the movement of passengers will be managed. This once most prestigous of stations looks like it's soon going to be able to compete with its illustrious neighbour.

I understand the end of March is the opening date for the new concourse. With that and the removing of the remaining roof covers the transformation will be amazing. The uncovering of the southern section of covers has already transformed the place.

One note of caution though. The linking of the ECML to TL. I just prey that this doesn't go the way I think. The problems on the TL core are getting worse as evidenced by the increasing regularity with which details appear on this forum. If that mess infects Kings Cross via the junction at Bell Isle, arriving 60 mins late in to a splendid Kings Cross will be of little merit.

Oh, and my solution, 6 tracks from Bell Isle to Aly Pally, run the TL around the Hertford Loop, slow lines from Langley Jn to Hitchin and then up over the new flyover to Cambridge. This would grade seperate the entire TL from the ECML flow.

Thoughts?

 

[Simon11]

I personally agree with you about keeping them separate.

I don't understand what the benefits will be of combining them together ( Than compared against the positives). It's simple enough to walk from Kings X to St Pancras!

Joining them together will result in awful performance, with one delay on the BML, affecting the whole franchise.

 

[MCR247]

I don't think TL will work in the slightest. I mean two platforms at the "core" stations?! Where are you going with that?!

 

[Eagle]

I don't understand what the benefits will be of combining them together ( Than compared against the positives).

Because there will be 24tph heading into the Thameslink core from South London, Sussex and Kent in the peaks, and all those trains can't go on the MML.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think TL will work in the slightest. I mean two platforms at the "core" stations?! Where are you going with that?!

What, like all those two-platform Tube stations with a frequency that's higher than Thameslink or Crossrail?

 

[MCR247]

You cannot compare TL and the Jubilee line in the slightest, with the amount of platforms and the frequency being where the similarities end.

TL has no core. Literally no core. Yes, you can call Blackfriars - StP "the core", but it is not a core, no way.

Crossrail has a core, and so does every tube line, but TL does not.

 

[Lee_Again]

Because there will be 24tph heading into the Thameslink core from South London, Sussex and Kent in the peaks, and all those trains can't go on the MML.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What, like all those two-platform Tube stations with a frequency that's higher than Thameslink or Crossrail?

Who says 24tph need to go on the MML. Stop some short at City. Use the turnback sidings. Turn some back at Kentish Town. Plenty of space to unload of the mains and turn them straight(ish) back. And use the new tunnels connecting to the ECML as a turnback siding.

As for tube stations. Most tube platforms have all trains going to the same stations with the same calling patterns. In the 'core' you'll have trains going everywhere. Works well when it's working. But go to StP when it's not. Chaos. The staff, the CIS screens. No one has a clue. And all the while, trains are backing up to Finsbury Park, blocking Kings Cross and causing disruption all over.

 

[Eagle]

Who says 24tph need to go on the MML. Stop some short at City. Use the turnback sidings. Turn some back at Kentish Town. Plenty of space to unload of the mains and turn them straight(ish) back. And use the new tunnels connecting to the ECML as a turnback siding.

That's a lot of trains you need to turn around and not a lot of space to do it in (I think you could probably send 12 or 14tph tops onto the MML), also would leave units OOS for a long time in the peak. Far simpler to connect them up with another nearby commuter route needing extra capacity, say the Great Northern.

 

[Lee_Again]

That's a lot of trains you need to turn around and not a lot of space to do it in (I think you could probably send 12 or 14tph tops onto the MML), also would leave units OOS for a long time in the peak. Far simpler to connect them up with another nearby commuter route needing extra capacity, say the Great Northern.

At what cost though?

I don't, in principal, disagree with the concept. Indeed, living in Stevenage, I would benefit hugely from the new service opportunities. In my original post I did outline a way of keeping the two flows seperated. It wouldn't be cheap but equally it wouldn't take much as most of the infrusturture is there already.

 

[swt_passenger]

Over the last few weeks more and more of the new structures are coming in to view and more importantly it is now clear how the movement of passengers will be managed.

You should have asked about this before - I've got details of the passenger routes that I downloaded from the planning applications nearly 5 years ago...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's a lot of trains you need to turn around and not a lot of space to do it in (I think you could probably send 12 or 14tph tops onto the MML), also would leave units OOS for a long time in the peak. Far simpler to connect them up with another nearby commuter route needing extra capacity, say the Great Northern.

They already run 13 or 14 tph to/from the MML during the peaks don't they? Key Output 2 is only planned to be 16 tph on the MML, the other 8 tph go to the GN.

 

[RobShipway]

You cannot compare TL and the Jubilee line in the slightest, with the amount of platforms and the frequency being where the similarities end.

TL has no core. Literally no core. Yes, you can call Blackfriars - StP "the core", but it is not a core, no way.

Crossrail has a core, and so does every tube line, but TL does not.

Not sure what you mean by the fact of Thameslink not having a core. As far as I am aware the core for Crossrail is going east to west or West to east across London with trains either going to Old Oak Common Station when it is built, Heathrow, Maidenhead or Reading in the West with Trains going out to towards Southend etc... in the East.

The core for Thameslink is similar to Crossrail accept being North to South or South to North across London with many variations of Destinations with not all of those being on the MML.

 

[MCR247]

Not sure what you mean by the fact of Thameslink not having a core. As far as I am aware the core for Crossrail is going east to west or West to east across London with trains either going to Old Oak Common Station when it is built, Heathrow, Maidenhead or Reading in the West with Trains going out to towards Southend etc... in the East.

The core for Thameslink is similar to Crossrail accept being North to South or South to North across London with many variations of Destinations with not all of those being on the MML.

But Crossrail will also act like a tube line for passengers within Central London, and with a longer core, you can trains every 2 minutes, with it not mattering whether they're on an Abbey Wood train or a Shenfield one, like if you're stood on the SB JL line platform at Green Park, 95% of pax will get on the first train that comes.

IMO, TL is more the equivalent to making every service through new street a through service, and then just have 3 platform for each direction. With TL, people will be waiting for a specific train more, which is not what happens on the tube.

Anyway, can't go into anymore detail as I should be revising for a GCSE that I have in 3 hours

3 hours?! fml

 

[Minstral25]

I agree the Thameslink core will be very different to Crossrail.

Thameslink is a group of outer-suburban services pushed through a central track to avoid terminating trains in Central London.

Crossrail is a suburban metro route with most trains calling all stations and acting as a tube line through the centre of London.

Thameslink's issue is going to be crowds on the platforms not waiting for the next train, in the peaks there will be great difficulties getting on and off trains especially at places like City Thameslink and Farringdon where the platforms are (relatively) narrow.

I'm surprised with the automated trains they haven't placed platform doors on the Thameslink core stations like they have with Crossrail, This would enable passengers to queue properly at the doors rather than a throng trying to push forward and thus speed up entry/exit.

Because it is a metro service I can't see Crossrail sending trains to Milton Keynes either but that's another discussion

 

[Clip]

Cant wait to see my old haunt fully opened and in all its glory. We were worried when we saw the original plans and discussions but its going to look great.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Who says 24tph need to go on the MML. Stop some short at City. Use the turnback sidings. Turn some back at Kentish Town. Plenty of space to unload of the mains and turn them straight(ish) back. And use the new tunnels connecting to the ECML as a turnback siding....

Plenty of space to get trains out of the way maybe (although you'd have to empty the trains at City before going into the sidings) but no space to get them back on the line.

In both cases you have to have trains crossing one of the 'main' lines (Up Holborn at City, Down Moorgate at Kentish Town) at speeds no higher than 20mph if memory serves (probably much less at City as they are coming out of the sidings). I don't see how you could get even 16tph running through with those additional moves going on.

 

[Barclay]

The Western concourse at King's Cross will have a "soft" opening on Sunday March 18th, touch wood.

 

[Class377/5]

The ability for City to handle terminating trains is now gone. Apart from the fact that you can't put 12 cars in the Smithfield sidings (meaning most of the new trains going through the Core couldn't be turned there) you then start biting into the capacity. You have to give roughly 6-8mins gap for a terminating train, with 24tph you get 2.5 headways so if you terminated one train you'd have to drop the frequency down to 20tph. Now because of the removal of the crossover at the north end of City, any train out the siding would meaning it would have to run wrong road through the station and get the correct road south of City using the crossover. This means you'd have to remove another 2tph leaving you with 18tph into the Core.

However the new bays at Blackfriars are able to cope with 12 cars with up to 6tph in each platform. I'm not sure if this is still the case but early designs of the track work had platform 4 unable to handle London Brudge trains. If it can now, (I haven't seen any plans recently so it could have changed) then you might get away with using both platforms at City and the two bays at Blackfriars to terminate trains meaning you can cope with most of the 24tph in the case of a total block at Farringdon.

Add in platform 2 at Elephant & Castle can handle 8 car reversing of maybe 6tph and you can handle a Core block in theory.

However on the north side you may get upto 12tph using both platforms at St Pancras at best. 8 car trains can be turned at Kentish Town meaning services off the MML could be dealt with. As for trains off the ECML, you could terimate them at Finsbury Park and use the new tunnels to reverse stock as there will be the ability to use the new link for this.

But this is all theory but disprution rarely is so clean but there is the ability to deal with the train load.

 

[transmanche]

However on the north side you may get upto 12tph using both platforms at St Pancras at best.

I was quite surprised that the low-level station at St Pancras wasn't built with four platforms. If only to allow for longer dwell times with 'staggered' arrivals/departures.

 

[jopsuk]

Aye- could have had two islands, with (say) the outer faces for trains to/from the GN and inner faces for to/from the MML- and crossovers on each pair before the lines diverge

 

[amcluesent]

I'm hoping for good things in the new EC Lounge above where the M&S used to be beside 8.

 

[Barclay]

The new lounge isn't above where M&S used to be, that's the Station control room. The lounge is at first floor but in the 'bomb gap' area of new build, just South of the new footbridge which passes through the Western range. The theory being that you get very quick access to platforms via the new bridge.

I have to say I await reactions to the lounge colour scheme - it's vivid to put it mildly!

 

[Class377/5]

I was quite surprised that the low-level station at St Pancras wasn't built with four platforms. If only to allow for longer dwell times with 'staggered' arrivals/departures.

Would have been very helpful tho very tight fix, especially the southbound. Likely just a cost issue.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Yesterday, I went to Network Rail 'interactive exhibition' located next to the ticket office. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/interactive-exhibition.aspx

I was disappointed.

The stand consisted of two people handing out a leaflet showing a KX plan of the platforms and facilities without showing the planned separate arrival and departure flows. There was also an iPad with some pictures. And what was it.

 

[amcluesent]

I await reactions to the lounge colour scheme - it's vivid to put it mildly

Hmmm, sounds like that's another thing about EC I can grumble about

 

[Eagle]

I'm surprised with the automated trains they haven't placed platform doors on the Thameslink core stations like they have with Crossrail, This would enable passengers to queue properly at the doors rather than a throng trying to push forward and thus speed up entry/exit.

Because quite a few different trains of different classes and different lengths use the Thameslink core (as opposed to Crossrail, which will be entirely 10-car 345s).

 

[swt_passenger]

Because quite a few different trains of different classes and different lengths use the Thameslink core (as opposed to Crossrail, which will be entirely 10-car 345s).

Of course by the time ATO arrives in the core they'll only ever be 8 or 12 car Desiro City - but only two different lengths will still make it difficult unless automatic train size detection for the PEDs is ultra reliable...

 

[All Line Rover]

Just visited Kings Cross today and peeked over the fence, and I have to agree that it looks lovely. From a passengers perspective, it will be almost as good as St Pancras!

 

[tsr]

I paid a visit to KX yesterday to have a look at the photovoltaics and the uncovered roof. It's all looking very good up overhead!

Now with regards to the TL "Core", I think they really did want 4 platforms at St Pancras Low Level. However, as far as I know, it would have been too tight a squeeze, meaning a relocation of various structures would have been needed, which would have costed an extra few tens of millions! I can't remember where I heard this, but it was mentioned somewhere on this forum as well. It would have been a very useful feature, and I'm sure it will be regretted that it wasn't done.

 

[amcluesent]

Shame this morning rain poured through the new roof in the train sheds! Some 'snagging' needed...

 

[DarkestDreams]

New video on the BBC News site - what do you think the new concourse's nickname should be?

 

[Waddon]

I just hope there are some more pedestrian tunnels to the Victoria and Northern line waiting to be unveiled... that very long, very narrow single foot bi-directional tunnel up to the new tube concourse is horrible, no control over pedestrians, and rammed solid in the rush hour, with people walking into eachother... I avoid using the tube at that station now whenever I can