Kings Cross Disruption 05/11

[ST156]

Does anyone have any more information regarding the problems at KGX tonight?

NRE are reporting signalling problems just outside the station, anyone know exactly what's happened?

 

[Aictos]

Does anyone have any more information regarding the problems at KGX tonight?

NRE are reporting signalling problems just outside the station, anyone know exactly what's happened?

Total Loss of Signalling between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park affecting mostly Down (away from London) services - Network Rail had to introduce Temporary Block Working (One train in section) but that got delayed awaiting for the staff to be in position.

Trains are now slowly departing London; the 22:00 Kings Cross to Newcastle isn't expected to get into Newcastle until 04:46, should have arrived at 02:14 if that gives a idea of the disruption.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Isn't there any sort of backup system in place that would allow reduced running (before it reached the point of needing temporary block working) - especially for a major station like Kings X

 

[drbdrb]

So if trains were running from 10pm, why were GNR unable to run an acceptable service the following day?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Isn't there any sort of backup system in place that would allow reduced running (before it reached the point of needing temporary block working) - especially for a major station like Kings X

Nope. Unfortunately signalling doesn't ring up the signaller and say "Sorry I'm going sick, you're going to have to do without me" It just goes kaput without warning.

 

[petersi]

Plus fail over on state full systems is complicated

 

[Aictos]

Nope. Unfortunately signalling doesn't ring up the signaller and say "Sorry I'm going sick, you're going to have to do without me" It just goes kaput without warning.

Indeed, part of the issue last night was also awaiting staffed be in location in order to operate the Temporary Block Working, until they were in place nothing would move.

Plus the time needed to detect and repair the fault takes time too.

So if trains were running from 10pm, why were GNR unable to run an acceptable service the following day?

Trains didn't start moving until midnight onwards and even then was subjected to delays, alterations and cancellations due to trains and drivers being in wrong place due to disruption.

Thats why the morning peak today saw alterations to the train service as trains were left out of sync, remember there are safety regulations on driver hours so that also has a effect on trains not being where they should be.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The one thing I hate about signalling going kaput is the fact it has a tendency to do it and put the signals back to either red or blank just as you come to it. It's one of the railways cures for constipation.

 

[drbdrb]

So the answer to GNR providing an unacceptable service this morning, was it failed to anticipate the resource needed to get the trains in the correct location in the following 7 hours.

 

[carriageline]

Isn't there any sort of backup system in place that would allow reduced running (before it reached the point of needing temporary block working) - especially for a major station like Kings X

Yes there is, depending on what the failure is/extent of it, and if the panel and interlocking is so equipped, you can have an override which will work the signals automatically for straight line routes only (so a very basic system), normally you can only use these if you have a TDM failure (the link between the panel and the interlockings), you can switch to a FDM link and it offers the above.

Of course, in the throat of KX that wouldn't be particularly plausible (although it's technically possible, just not easy to implement), I believe panel 4 has such overrides

The problem with TBW these days is the lack of ops staff. Handsignallers are difficult to source, and not readily available like they once was. There was a trial else where in the country to trial it without HSMs, how that ended I don't know. Even once you have found them, all the points need to be clipped and scotched which again takes a lot of time. Normally the fault can be fixed before TBW is fully implemented


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[HarleyDavidson]

Of course you can always use a Temporary Special Working Ticket system, which is on long term trial on SWT.

I've used it and it's quite easy to instigate and it keeps things moving providing the driver has the correct form on them.

 

[philjo]

So if trains were running from 10pm, why were GNR unable to run an acceptable service the following day?

GN route trains coming from Cambridge branch appeared to be running OK at 7am this morning - I think there was one service that starts from Royston on the board listed as 4 coaches instead of 8 & a Moorgate stopper from WGC was 3 coaches instead of 6 but everything else I saw was on time.
I had far more problems yesterday morning (wednesday) with the 07:20 Letchworth-KX cancelled & the next train for WGC (where about 200 people changed over to platform 4 for the Moorgate train) was only 4 coaches (unannouced as the screens said 8) so 2 train loads in one 4 car unit.

 

[ExRes]

So the answer to GNR providing an unacceptable service this morning, was it failed to anticipate the resource needed to get the trains in the correct location in the following 7 hours.

Failing to anticipate is one thing which, usually, goes along with the lack of working crystal balls, the inability to be able to roster sufficient staff or serviced/serviceable rolling stock is an entirely different matter

 

[Tomnick]

So the answer to GNR providing an unacceptable service this morning, was it failed to anticipate the resource needed to get the trains in the correct location in the following 7 hours.

How on earth do you expect them to anticipate this sort of thing with sufficient notice to get crews in to shuffle things around overnight? Drivers don't grow on trees, and clearly the crystal ball was broken that day...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

So the answer to GNR providing an unacceptable service this morning, was it failed to anticipate the resource needed to get the trains in the correct location in the following 7 hours.

May I recommend the following alternative modes of transport as you are obviously so completely dissatisfied with the service that they managed to cobble together with the available resources.

Bus, Bike, Scooter, Motorcycle, Tube, Taxi, Car.

 

[Tomnick]

Of course you can always use a Temporary Special Working Ticket system, which is on long term trial on SWT.

I've used it and it's quite easy to instigate and it keeps things moving providing the driver has the correct form on them.

It might be ok from a driver's point of view, but I don't like the sound of the signalman being required to carry out the duties of two handsignalmen as well as his own already inflated duties. Putting virtually all of the responsibility for the safe working of trains through the affected section onto one chap doesn't sound like the best idea either - the handsignalmen are there for a reason, after all!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I've used it a couple of times and it works very well. The delays were about 15-20' but when you consider the length of line that was affected by the signalling failure it could have been a LOT longer.

Whoever came up with the idea, deserves a pat on the back. The only thing that I did to the form (you don't have to) was write down every signal number that the signaller quoted to me over the GSM-R and then read all of what had previously been dictated to me back.

Once signallers permission had been obtained, TPWS isolated, it was a case of away we go, I just slowed down to check each signal number that I wrote down & ticked it off, the last time I did it I slowed down checked the signal number, found that it wasn't on the list, so stopped even though the signal was showing green, spoke to the signaller, got authority to pass it and then when I got to the last signal, cancelled the ticket & reinstated TPWS.

It's a very easy system to use and I have no issues about using it, as I felt completely safe doing it.

 

[drbdrb]

The service that they managed to cobble together with the available resources.

Exactly, it was a cobbled together service this morning, rather than a professionally delivered service.

It is not rocket science to model various problems and the solutions you need to take to solve them.

However GNR (and FCC before them) don't seem to have any desire to do so.

Why were there insufficient trains at Peterborough this morning? Was it impossible to get the trains there, or could someone simply not be bothered, because there is no downside if they run short trains?

 

[carriageline]

I do agree with both of you, but knowing the pressure we can be put under, I can quite easily see someone having 2 in a section at some point. The idea on paper is good, and you say it's easy yes, but who for? The driver is near enough no different, But it puts more a lot more pressure on the signallers, who is also dealing with countless drivers calling in, control, trust clerks, S&T trying to fix the fault, people else where requesting line blockages, signalling normally in unaffected sections, Aswell as trying to be HSM. in times of failure when you have no indications or describes it could create a scenario where you could accidently put one in an occupied section.

From what I understand, the trial wasn't the busiest stretch of line? Try doing thay on the fasts and slows through clapham junction and see what a brilliant idea it is then!


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[Aictos]

May I recommend the following alternative modes of transport as you are obviously so completely dissatisfied with the service that they managed to cobble together with the available resources.

Bus, Bike, Scooter, Motorcycle, Tube, Taxi, Car, Walk.

Just had to edit that for you Well said though

 

[Bald Rick]

Exactly, it was a cobbled together service this morning, rather than a professionally delivered service.

It is not rocket science to model various problems and the solutions you need to take to solve them.

However GNR (and FCC before them) don't seem to have any desire to do so.

Why were there insufficient trains at Peterborough this morning? Was it impossible to get the trains there, or could someone simply not be bothered, because there is no downside if they run short trains?

Now one of the things I do for a living is model various disruption scenarios. I can advise that Rocket Science is definitely easier. The computing power required is of a size matched only by the brains of the blokes who construct and operate the models.

Also there is very definitely a downside to running shorter trains; aside from handling complaints etc, GTR are fined by DfT for every 'short formed' service they operate. As are most operators.

 

[General Zod]

Trains are now slowly departing London; the 22:00 Kings Cross to Newcastle isn't expected to get into Newcastle until 04:46, should have arrived at 02:14 if that gives a idea of the disruption.

The driver must have given it "some welly" as it arrived into Newcastle 26 minutes 'early" at 0420 That is an impressive make up of time Looking at RTT it seems as if the Peterborough - Newcastle leg was particularly rapid.
Were any forum members or their friends / family on the train ? If so how was the journey ? Were the First Class passengers served a late supper and / or an early breakfast ?

 

[Tomnick]

Exactly, it was a cobbled together service this morning, rather than a professionally delivered service.

It is not rocket science to model various problems and the solutions you need to take to solve them.

However GNR (and FCC before them) don't seem to have any desire to do so.

Why were there insufficient trains at Peterborough this morning? Was it impossible to get the trains there, or could someone simply not be bothered, because there is no downside if they run short trains?

Haven't we already answered your last question? Some of the trains that should have been at Peterborough would have finished in the wrong place as a result of the disruption. The late turn drivers, already delayed, would be running out of hours to start shifting things around overnight (even if they were willing to). There might have been a certain amount of spare cover on nights, but nowhere near enough again. What else do you expect them to do?

There's an infinite number of scenarios - not just "signalling failure at X", but also considering the position of all the trains and crews at the time of the failure, the estimated time of rectification, time of day and travel patterns at that time and many more. Yes, there'll be a set of contingency plans that can be brought off the shelf if necessary, but none of them could ever hope to be an exact fit to the situation as it stands.

 

[Aictos]

Haven't we already answered your last question? Some of the trains that should have been at Peterborough would have finished in the wrong place as a result of the disruption. The late turn drivers, already delayed, would be running out of hours to start shifting things around overnight (even if they were willing to). There might have been a certain amount of spare cover on nights, but nowhere near enough again. What else do you expect them to do?

There's an infinite number of scenarios - not just "signalling failure at X", but also considering the position of all the trains and crews at the time of the failure, the estimated time of rectification, time of day and travel patterns at that time and many more. Yes, there'll be a set of contingency plans that can be brought off the shelf if necessary, but none of them could ever hope to be an exact fit to the situation as it stands.

Pretty much what I said in #post 7 but of course you're done so in more detail

 

[Tomnick]

I do agree with both of you, but knowing the pressure we can be put under, I can quite easily see someone having 2 in a section at some point. The idea on paper is good, and you say it's easy yes, but who for? The driver is near enough no different, But it puts more a lot more pressure on the signallers, who is also dealing with countless drivers calling in, control, trust clerks, S&T trying to fix the fault, people else where requesting line blockages, signalling normally in unaffected sections, Aswell as trying to be HSM. in times of failure when you have no indications or describes it could create a scenario where you could accidently put one in an occupied section.

From what I understand, the trial wasn't the busiest stretch of line? Try doing thay on the fasts and slows through clapham junction and see what a brilliant idea it is then!


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My thoughts exactly. I don't doubt that it's good for performance, and that, in turn, reduces the risks elsewhere on the job (trains approaching signals at danger etc). Does the increased risk of an oopsie outweigh that? I don't know, but I don't to be the one who puts two in a bed because of the excessive workload and removal of some of the controls associated with proper TBW...!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pretty much what I said in #post 7 but of course you're done so in more detail

...yet we (the industry as a whole, not us personally) still seem to be expected to pull drivers out of a hat at a moment's notice!

 

[DarloRich]

Haven't we already answered your last question? Some of the trains that should have been at Peterborough would have finished in the wrong place as a result of the disruption. The late turn drivers, already delayed, would be running out of hours to start shifting things around overnight (even if they were willing to). There might have been a certain amount of spare cover on nights, but nowhere near enough again. What else do you expect them to do?

There's an infinite number of scenarios - not just "signalling failure at X", but also considering the position of all the trains and crews at the time of the failure, the estimated time of rectification, time of day and travel patterns at that time and many more. Yes, there'll be a set of contingency plans that can be brought off the shelf if necessary, but none of them could ever hope to be an exact fit to the situation as it stands.

you are wasting your breath. He doesn't want to know the answer unless it validates his own opinion of "they cant be bothered"

The simple answer is:

signals broke
trains stuck
drivers hours running out
trains moved to terminus/other location
driver out of hours
no other drivers available over night to move trains
not enough trains at Peterborough

From where at stupid o clock in the morning shall enough drivers be procured to move these trains?

Also consider, if you will, the time taken to locate the fault (in the dark and rain at stupid o clock in the morning by the light of a head torch) decide how to fix fault, rustle up men, machines and spares, take possession, de energize the ohle (potentially) do job, clear site, hand back possession, re energise and then move trains.

 

[DelayRepay]

Handsignallers are difficult to source, and not readily available like they once was.

Out of interest, where do you source them from? I assume they are Network Rail employees diverted from other duties, but what would they normally be doing?

 

[carriageline]

Out of interest, where do you source them from? I assume they are Network Rail employees diverted from other duties, but what would they normally be doing?

To be completely honest, I do not know. I would suspect agency workers, as NR tends to not keep competency up for things that are rarely used. If they are NR employees then as you say, they will have something else as the day job, with HSM ticket. I can't think of many staff that would have that though. The MOMs might have HSM competency but I'm not sure. I remember around Slough they was recruiting HSM specifically a year or two ago.


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[Tomnick]

Whenever we've had anyone out for that sort of duty - level crossing attendant, handsignalman etc. - at short notice when something's gone wrong, they've usually phoned round the p-way chaps with the right competency and dangled the overtime carrot. The MOM would almost certainly be able to do it, I'd have thought - but they'll probably be busy getting points clipped up ready to go!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Then of course you have the overnight possessions to add into the equation and all of the current isolations, which may mean that they just get the train clear of the running line into the sidings and then the power goes off, plunging the train into darkness.

That then means that the train can't be cleaned or CET'd, so isn't in a serviceable condition for the next mornings service.

I've refused to bring a train into service because there was sick all over a table, two turds in a corridor connection and litter throughout the train. I had to take it to Waterloo ECS and it took a team of between 6-8 cleaners a good 25-30' of hard graft to get it into a serviceable condition and I would say that they came off the train with over 20 large sacks of rubbish.

Now don't try telling me that that train was in a suitable condition for passenger service that day. It was like that because the night previous was seriously disrupted and on arrival at the terminating station the power went off for a possession.