Kicking up a stink - non retention toilets.

[mwmbwls]

The BBC carries a story about the health risks to track side workers from the spray and detritus spread from non retention toilets.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-25430657

Cambridge rail worker's health fears over excrement spray

Rail workers are being sprayed by human urine and faeces from passing trains, putting their health at risk.


A Network Rail worker said staff were "genuinely concerned" about excrement, urine and sanitary towels on the tracks.


Network Rail accepted that train toilets which emptied on the track were "outdated and unpleasant" for track workers.


Greater Anglia said it was hoping to phase out toilets which dump waste.
The man who works across the East Anglia region said: "A train would be coming and we'd stand back the recommended distance.



"It's not unusual to feel a spray, a kind of mist in the air. That's bad enough, but then you walk back to where you've been working on the tracks there's [faeces] everywhere."

This is a long recognised problem - although the introduction of powered doors and the removal of external door handles means that it might be less obvious to passengers, apart from the faeces and toilet paper seen in the track bed at stations.

Just how much of this stock remains in service? When is it scheduled for replacement? Is a retention toilet system something that can be fitted during the life of a carriage or is this a new build only issue? Are toilet conversions to allow for disabled passengers always linked to the installation of a retention system?

 

[A-driver]

The BBC carries a story about the health risks to track side workers from the spray and detritus spread from non retention toilets.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-25430657



This is a long recognised problem - although the introduction of powered doors and the removal of external door handles means that it might be less obvious to passengers, apart from the faeces and toilet paper seen in the track bed at stations.

Just how much of this stock remains in service? When is it scheduled for replacement? Is a retention toilet system something that can be fitted during the life of a carriage or is this a new build only issue? Are toilet conversions to allow for disabled passengers always linked to the installation of a retention system?

Not sure if there are plans to upgrade the GA fleet but it's certainly possible to do. All FCC 317s were fitted with tanks about. 5 years ago. All FCC 321s were upgraded to tanks earlier this year.

 

[alex17595]

I have only worked open line with 390s and 350s.
Some idiot went to the toilet and flushed in Nuneaton station, it cleared the platform!

How do you get covered in it when they always seem to be out of order

 

[Harpers Tate]

Not a new issue. Same thing raised in the Lords recently. See: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92520

 

[jopsuk]

do the GA 317 & 321 refurbishment proposals include retention loos?

 

[Topgun333]

So which are the classes that have toilets but no retention tanks?

 

[A-driver]

So which are the classes that have toilets but no retention tanks?

If it's around Cambridge station we are talking here the. The only stock I can think must be GA 317s and 156s. Don't know specifically that they don't but all FCC units do, 379 and 170 do aswell.

 

[LBSCR Times]

And when South Eastern installed facilities at Grove Park Sidings to empty toilets, the local residents kicked up a fuss (was going to say kicked up a stink but.....)!

 

[Monty]

I have only worked open line with 390s and 350s.
Some idiot went to the toilet and flushed in Nuneaton station, it cleared the platform!

How do you get covered in it when they always seem to be out of order

But I was under the impression both 390s and 350s have retention toilets and don't flush effluent onto the track.

 

[jopsuk]

What was the last British class built without retention toilets? Networkers as fas I know had tanks from new. Pretty sure all post-privitisation stock does.

 

[Buttsy]

I think 158s had retention tanks but 156s didn't, so anything built prior to the 158 probably doesn't have them unless retro-fitted.
Easiest way to tell is if there is a notice asking you not to flush when stopped at a station...

 

[455driver]

158s were not built with retention tanks.

SWTs 158/159s had tanks fitted after being built.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think 158s had retention tanks but 156s didn't, so anything built prior to the 158 probably doesn't have them unless retro-fitted.

Class 158s were not fitted with retention tanks from new, they have been retro-fitted with them in the last few years. This most probably makes them the most recent DMU not to have been built with retention tanks (The 159s had them retro-fitted during the conversion from class 158s before they entered service).

I'm not sure about EMUs, though: I've checked and the 323s do have them, so I suppose that would make the mark 3 based EMUs the last not to have them: 321s (and their derivatives - 320 & 322) and 456s (EDIT: Since realised that 320s and 456s didn't/don't have toilets) being the youngest of these.

 

[alex17595]

But I was under the impression both 390s and 350s have retention toilets and don't flush effluent onto the track.

Sorry, the only open line I have worked is when retention tank fitted stock has been running. Nuneaton was as a passenger.

 

[Yew]

Personally I'm of the opposite opinion, retention tanks should be ripped out of voyagers so the carriages dont smell.

 

[Silv1983]

I think 158s had retention tanks but 156s didn't, so anything built prior to the 158 probably doesn't have them unless retro-fitted.
Easiest way to tell is if there is a notice asking you not to flush when stopped at a station...

This notice is like a moth to a flame. People just can't help themselves it would seem looking at the sludge which lines the track in most busy stations.

 

[thetangoman]

I'm not sure about EMUs, though: I've checked and the 323s do have them, so I suppose that would make the mark 3 based EMUs the last not to have them: 321s (and their derivatives - 320 & 322) and 456s being the youngest of these.

320's have only just had toilets fitted to them so I will imagine that they do have retention tanks
Cheers
Russell

 

[sprinterguy]

320's have only just had toilets fitted to them so I will imagine that they do have retention tanks
Cheers
Russell

Oh, I hadn't realised that they were originally toiletless. Just realised that the 456s are the same - I'll make an edit to my original post.

 

[Buttsy]

Oh, I hadn't realised that they were originally toiletless. Just realised that the 456s are the same - I'll make an edit to my original post.

The 456s were originally built with toilets (probably track discharge ones) but had them removed.

 

[156441]

323's don't have retention tanks. I can *ahem* vouch for that!

 

[sprinterguy]

323's don't have retention tanks. I can *ahem* vouch for that!

Odd. It's noted in the traction manual.

 

[455driver]

(EDIT: Since realised that 320s and 456s didn't/don't have toilets) being the youngest of these.

456s were built with toilets but had them removed shortly after they were introduced.

 

[transmanche]

All FCC 317s were fitted with tanks about. 5 years ago.

I have a vague notion that the 317/1s had retention tanks from new, but had them removed when displaced from the, ahem, Bed-Pan route.

 

[Tracked]

Personally I'm of the opposite opinion, retention tanks should be ripped out of voyagers so the carriages dont smell.

follow the general rule for travelling by coach:

"No Solids"

Mind you, suppose it's easier for coach passangers because of the service station stops. People would moan if a train had a similar 20 minute waste disposal stop - as a suggestion: perhaps Service Stations are needed on the railways too

 

[Welly]

When all passenger trains gets retention tanks, naughty schoolboys will not be able to play "Bomber Command" on their train rides to and from school! That game consists of stuffing paper in the bog and flushing so that it dumps on a particular bit of track such as a foot crossing!

I remember reading in the paper many years ago that DB retrofitted ALL the non retention tank fitted coaches after one farmer complained about the mess left around his occupation under-bridge!

 

[VP185]

The idea that the train operating companies should pay to have retention tanks fitted to 'their' trains is ridiculous. It's like renting a property and then building an extension on it out of your own pocket!
The train operating companies do not own the trains, they are leased. Therefore it should surely fall to the leasing companies to fit retention tanks??

 

[455driver]

The idea that the train operating companies should pay to have retention tanks fitted to 'their' trains is ridiculous. It's like renting a property and then building an extension on it out of your own pocket!
The train operating companies do not own the trains, they are leased. Therefore it should surely fall to the leasing companies to fit retention tanks??

Agreed, but how many trains can the TOC spare to have the leasing company fitting the tanks?
Plus the fact you will need to install emptying equipment at the depots.
You will also need to change the diagrams so each train will visit a location where the tanks can be emptied every couple of days.

The there is the biggy, there are no spare units and the ones in service are worked very intensely with no spare capacity!

 

[jopsuk]

It is more like a firm leasing a building, then paying for work to configure it to their needs. Which is very, very common. Very normal.

 

[455driver]

It is more like a firm leasing a building, then paying for work to configure it to their needs. Which is very, very common. Very normal.

The trains have to be handed back to the leasing company in the same condition as at the beginning of the franchise unless there is an agreement in place.

If the work is done by the leasing company then they will increase the leasing charges to cover the extra expense, any way you look at it the TOC has to pay.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite. More likely if tanks are to be fitted a financial agreement between the TOC, ROSCO and mediated by the DfT will be arranged.