Just how are train fares worked out?

[syorksdeano]

OK as many of you know a majority of my journeys are made by split tickets after wonderful help from this forum. However today something has baffled me.

Today I was travelling to station X and was able to get split tickets. Let me give you an example of what I mean :

Station A is a major station
Station B is the next station from this major station
Station C (and where I got the main ticket from) is the next stop
Station D is the station I was travelling from.

Station D for the ticket outright was £47

With the splits Station A worked out at £30 and a £6 ticket on top to get to station A
Station! B worked out at £29 and a £5.50 ticket from station D to station! B

So can anyone guess how much it was from Station C including the fare from station D to station C?

Answer is £11!

Now station C has to travel through B and A to get to location X. Station E which is the next station gave a split totalling £41 with a £3 fare to station C.

When ticket prices are sorted do they do them after a few pints?

 

[yorkie]

Unregulated fares are typically set as high as the market will bear, and regulated fares are generally set as high as Government will allow them to be.

I'm not getting into the algebra questions, but you can see who sets the fare at www.brfares.com (with some caveats). As no station names are provided we can only talk in general terms.

A much better, non-cryptic, example is that CrossCountry (XC) set Reading to Birmingham as being very expensive (£106.60 for a return if you have to travel before 0930), but Reading to Bicester is set reasonably by FGW (£28.20) and Bicester to Birmingham is set at a reasonable price by Chiltern (£24.00).

XC may well believe that FGW, Chiltern and the Government all want fares to be far too low and people should be discouraged by travelling by train by setting fares at approximately twice their current price.

However most people would take the view that XC are setting their fares too high.

No-one can stop XC setting the Reading to Birmingham fare to be sky high. In fact, XC could make that fare £200 if they wanted, but they probably realise that many business people will pay £106 without quibble and if they made it £200 then the number of people "splitting" or hiring a car instead would result in a loss of revenue overall.

Basically, they can set that fare as high as they think they can get away with, and they jolly well have done, and we can't stop them.

Savvy passengers do not pay such eye-watering fares though, so the likes of us will always win against XC.

 

[suzanneparis]

A related issue is why it is much cheaper to travel for example on Chiltern lines from Birmingham to London rather than from Leicester to London. Yes I know it's not exactly the same distance but similar.

EMT return from Leicester to London 09:00 or 09:24 £85.50
But Chiltern Birmingham to London return 08:54 £28!!!, 09:12 £49

So on that comparison EMT are much more expensive. Why?

 

[ainsworth74]

One of the few places on the network where there is genuine competition for passengers business.

 

[syorksdeano]

One of the few places on the network where there is genuine competition for passengers business.

That I would agree with if the fare setting company wasn't the same

 

[ainsworth74]

That I would agree with if the fare setting company wasn't the same

There are three companies which set fares for London to Birmingham journeys so I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[Merseysider]

That I would agree with if the fare setting company wasn't the same

Eh?
Arriva (Deutsche Bahn), Govia/Keolis/Go Ahead, Virgin/Stagecoach are quite different companies.

 

[syorksdeano]

The only way to make the journey is with 1 company. A is nearer to X

 

[CyrusWuff]

A related issue is why it is much cheaper to travel for example on Chiltern lines from Birmingham to London rather than from Leicester to London. Yes I know it's not exactly the same distance but similar.

So on that comparison EMT are much more expensive. Why?

EMT is a long distance TOC, whereas Chiltern is a London & South East one. A fairer comparison would be between EMT and Virgin fares.

 

[bb21]

The only way to make the journey is with 1 company. A is nearer to X

All this A-B-C-D is confusing. Can you not use a real-life example? There are often things like historical issues to be considered so using aliases is unlikely to explain what happened there.

 

[suzanneparis]

Are you saying that EMT cover a greater distance than Chiltern?

Anyway, so what if they have slightly different sized networks??

I still ask the same question why is EMT, in the example I gave, dramatically more than Chiltern??

You evaded answering the question!

 

[Minilad]

Are you saying that EMT cover a greater distance than Chiltern?

Anyway, so what if they have slightly different sized networks??

I still ask the same question why is EMT, in the example I gave, dramatically more than Chiltern??

You evaded answering the question!

Quite simply it's because Chiltern are operating in a very competitive market for Birmingham - London passengers. EMT are not. Thats my take on it

 

[najaB]

I still ask the same question why is EMT, in the example I gave, dramatically more than Chiltern??!

Because they can.

 

[Bald Rick]

A related issue is why it is much cheaper to travel for example on Chiltern lines from Birmingham to London rather than from Leicester to London. Yes I know it's not exactly the same distance but similar.

EMT return from Leicester to London 09:00 or 09:24 £85.50
But Chiltern Birmingham to London return 08:54 £28!!!, 09:12 £49

So on that comparison EMT are much more expensive. Why?

BA return Heathrow - Nice £500
Emirates return Heathrow - Dubai £600
Same dates.

It's called market forces.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A related issue is why it is much cheaper to travel for example on Chiltern lines from Birmingham to London rather than from Leicester to London. Yes I know it's not exactly the same distance but similar.

EMT return from Leicester to London 09:00 or 09:24 £85.50
But Chiltern Birmingham to London return 08:54 £28!!!, 09:12 £49
So on that comparison EMT are much more expensive. Why?

Part of it is that Chiltern have spare capacity on their trains, but EMT do not.
(I'm guessing here).
Certainly XC have been in the business of pricing people off their trains because they were overloaded, and there was no prospect of getting more trains.
This is encouraged by DfT who don't want to fund more stock.
That's also why time restrictions have multiplied across the network.

 

[TUC]

An interesting question though is what drives fare levels when, for historical reasons, a TOC is responsible for setting a fare on a route they don't operate, so they have no incentive to maximise revenue. It's difficult to believe that there aren't behind the scenes conversations between TOCs in such circumstances.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Are you saying that EMT cover a greater distance than Chiltern?

No. I'm saying that long distance (former InterCity) operators have generally always attracted a premium compared to "commuter" (London & South East and Provincial) operators.

That, and Chiltern have a pricing policy whereby you pay the same price if you travel from Leamington Spa to London as you do for Birmingham to London, with a slight premium for other West Midlands stations.

Here are some more comparisons:

• Marylebone - Birmingham Snow Hill is 112 miles according to the NRT. An Anytime Day Single is £64.00 (57.1p per mile) and the Anytime Return is £99.00 (44.2p per mile).
• Marylebone - Leamington Spa is 88.75 miles. An Anytime Day Single is £64.00 (72.1p per mile) and the Anytime Return is £99.00 (55.8p per mile).
• St Pancras - Loughborough is 111.75 miles. An Anytime Single is £80.50 (72p per mile) and the Anytime Return is £160.00 (71.6p per mile).
• St Pancras - Market Harborough is 83 miles. An Anytime Single is £69.00 (83.1p per mile) and the Anytime Return is £118.50 (71.4p per mile).
• Kings Cross - Grantham is 105.25 miles. An Anytime Single is £60.00 (57p per mile) and the Anytime Return is £120.00 (57p per mile).
• Euston - Tamworth is 110 miles. An Anytime Single is £86.50 (78.6p per mile) and the Anytime Return is £173.00 (78.6p per mile). Travel on London Midland and the Anytime Single drops to £58.00 (52.7p per mile) and the Anytime Return to £99.00 (45p per mile).
• Euston - Rugby is 82.5 miles. An Anytime Single is £65.50 (79.4p per mile) and the Anytime Return is £131.00 (79.4p per mile). Travel on London Midland and the Anytime Single drops to £48.00 (58.2p per mile) and the Anytime Return to £75.00 (45.5p per mile).
• Paddington - Bristol Parkway is 111.75 miles. An Anytime Single is £98.50 (88.1p per mile) and the Anytime Return is £197.00 (88.1p per mile).
• Paddington - Chippenham is 94 miles. An Anytime Single is £80.00 (85.1p per mile) and an Anytime Return is £160.00 (85.1p per mile).
• Liverpool Street - Norwich is 115 miles. An Anytime Single is £65.40 (56.9p per mile) and an Anytime Return is £105.70 (46p per mile).
• Victoria - Gatwick Airport is 26.75 miles. An Anytime Single on Govia Thameslink Railway trains branded "Gatwick Express" is £19.90 (74.4p per mile) and an Anytime Return is £34.90 (65.2p per mile), while on Govia Thameslink Railway trains branded "Southern" the Anytime Day Single is £15.30 (57.2p per mile) and an Anytime Return is £30.60 (57.2p per mile).
• Blackfriars - Gatwick Airport is 27.25 miles. An Anytime Day Single is £10.20 (37.4p per mile) and an Anytime Return is £19.40 (35.6p per mile).
• Paddington - Heathrow Central is 14.75 miles. An Anytime Single on the Heathrow Express is £21.50 (145.8p per mile) and an Anytime Return is £35.00 (118.6p per mile). An Anytime Day Single on Heathrow Connect is £10.10 (68.5p per mile) and an Anytime Return is £20.20 (68.5p per mile).
• Covent Garden - Leicester Square is 250 metres (~0.16 miles). A Cash Single is £4.80 (£30.90 per mile!) and on Oyster/Contactless it's £2.30 (£14.81 per mile).

So what does this tell us? Well for starters, anyone paying to use the tube between Covent Garden and Leicester Square instead of walking has more money than sense! But mainly it shows that different TOCs set their fares in different ways...which we already knew.

 

[Hadders]

An interesting question though is what drives fare levels when, for historical reasons, a TOC is responsible for setting a fare on a route they don't operate, so they have no incentive to maximise revenue. It's difficult to believe that there aren't behind the scenes conversations between TOCs in such circumstances.

Also bear in mind that the fares basket could come into play here. A TOC could decide to increase fares by a higher amount on a route it runs trains on (thereby maximising its own revenue) at the expense of a lower (or no) increase on a route where it operates no trains.

 

[suzanneparis]

Yes but the fares you quote are fares that I would never buy. I cannot afford them.

I always buy super saver if possible. And on that basis the fares I quote from Bham to London compared to Leicester to London clearly show that Chiltern offer much cheaper tickets.

You failed to mention in your list of comparisons that the fares I gave for travel at about 9am clearly show Chiltern to be cheaper.

 

[Hadders]

We don't have distance based pricing in this country, it is market based. Added to that certain fares (season tickets and generally off-peak returns) are regulated and fare increases are basically determined by Government policy.

Add to that competition and special offers which distort fares further. You get this where different operators serve the same places. For example Birmingham to London or Milton Keynes to London. Promotional offers also cause anomolies.

Consider the Great Northern route. They introduced super off peak fares valid at weekends and they are currently selling on-line super off peak fares on weekdays until September to encourage train use during the summer holidays. This introduces splitting opportunities if travelling further afield.

Not all operators do the same thing, nor should they. East Midlands Trains often run red dot days and give away promotional vouchers.

 

[LAX54]

[*]Covent Garden - Leicester Square is 250 metres (~0.16 miles). A Cash Single is £4.80 (£30.90 per mile!) and on Oyster/Contactless it's £2.30 (£14.81 per mile).[/list]

So what does this tell us? Well for starters, anyone paying to use the tube between Covent Garden and Leicester Square instead of walking has more money than sense! But mainly it shows that different TOCs set their fares in different ways...which we already knew.

The Tube fares in London are just a rip off, God knows what tourist think when they come to London, Boris is on to a good thing here....and he has the audacity to maon about the Tube Workers!
£4.80 1 station ! Travel to L.A. and it's $3.00 for 1 trip anywhere on the LA Metro, and for a eye watering $5 (LOL) you can have a day ticket !

 

[yorkie]

Yes but the fares you quote are fares that I would never buy. I cannot afford them.

I always buy super saver if possible. And on that basis the fares I quote from Bham to London compared to Leicester to London clearly show that Chiltern offer much cheaper tickets.

You failed to mention in your list of comparisons that the fares I gave for travel at about 9am clearly show Chiltern to be cheaper.

Feel free to do your own comparisons but the point remains the same; fares are generally cheaper - as you both correctly say - on Chiltern (and LM and similar operators) than they are on EMT, FGW etc for a variety of reasons, some historical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Tube fares in London are just a rip off, God knows what tourist think when they come to London, Boris is on to a good thing here....and he has the audacity to maon about the Tube Workers!
£4.80 1 station ! Travel to L.A. and it's $3.00 for 1 trip anywhere on the LA Metro, and for a eye watering $5 (LOL) you can have a day ticket !

Who doesn't have a contactless card and won't get an Oyster card? Not many people. So the cash fares (for travel exclusively by LU) are almost an irrelevance.

Also your comparison is non-sensical as there is no cash fare at all on the LA metro. Rather than charge a high cash fare you want there to be no LU cash fare at all? If you want to debate this further please make a new thread.

 

[suzanneparis]

It's all very well to talk of these special offers but in reality what most customers want are cheap rail fares at reasonable times that are always available.

I can understand that 'commuter time' will be expensive.

But I still don't understand why for a ticket around 9am from Leic to London I have to pay a lot more than from Birmingham to London.

Does this effectively mean that rail companies can charge what they like and get away with it? There are no checks and balances to ensure fairness for train users?

 

[yorkie]

Why? Because there is no 'cheap' commuter operator on that route. if you wish to pay LM prices you must change trains (and "split" your tickets) at Nuneaton.

Yes they can set any of the unregulated fares as they wish.

As is well documented every January in the media, and on this forum, regulated fares cannot go up any higher than whatever rate is decided by Government.

 

[suzanneparis]

I am not interested in commuter fares. I don't commute. I am a pensioner.

But friends in Birmingham can travel to London for a day out at a cheaper price earlier in the day. And Birmingham is further from London than Leicester.

I find that unreasonable. You seem not to.

I can only hope someone will renationalise the railways to get rid of this unfair nonsense.

 

[yorkie]

Birmingham is not further than Leicester.

I never made any comments regarding "reasonableness"

Rail fares are not - and never will be - set on "fairness"

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can only hope someone will renationalise the railways to get rid of this unfair nonsense.

The "nonsense" you allude to (market pricing) was invented in the 1960s by BR, with the full encouragement of the government.
Initially it was to pay for upgraded lines like the WCML (when it was first electrified with new, faster trains etc).
Every year the fares on upgraded lines went up by more than others.
Every inter city line followed suit, including the MML through Leicester, when they were upgraded (electrified, 125mph HSTs, more frequent services etc).
One line which did not was Birmingham-London (then to Paddington via Oxford), which was downgraded for several decades.
The low fares via High Wycombe are a result of several decades of that policy.
Privatisation meant more of the same, only in a more extreme form.

Every year the railway tries to resolve these historic anomalies, but they can only make limited changes at each revision date because of the way DfT regulates the process.
And they make new anomalies for themselves along the way.
The "cheapest" lines are the regional routes which have never had a major upgrade.
Leicester-London has 125mph non-stop trains, Birmingham-London (via High Wycombe) doesn't.
I think we can expect fares via High Wycombe to rise quickly in the future in line with the improvement in services Chiltern has made.

 

[Hadders]

I am not interested in commuter fares. I don't commute. I am a pensioner.

But friends in Birmingham can travel to London for a day out at a cheaper price earlier in the day. And Birmingham is further from London than Leicester.

I find that unreasonable. You seem not to.

I can only hope someone will renationalise the railways to get rid of this unfair nonsense.

Well, with a Senior Railcard you get a third off. Pity commuters who have to pay £000's to get into London.

If the railways were re-nationalised the ticket prices between London and Leicester would not reduce in price to match the London-Birmingham fares.

The Birmingham fares would get increased.

You can travel from Leicester to London for a day trip at a cost of £31.40 return with a Senior Railcard if you split at Kettering and Bedford. The service is hourly and takes around 1h20m iirc as you'll need a train that calls at both Kettering and Bedford.

 

[suzanneparis]

You can't do the cheap split ticket at 9am unless I am missing something. Furthermore, having to use a Bedford train is limiting on frequency of service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyway my question seems to be have been answered, it's due to historical unfairness which is perpetuated still.

 

[Hadders]

You can't do the cheap split ticket at 9am unless I am missing something. Furthermore, having to use a Bedford train is limiting on frequency of service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyway my question seems to be have been answered, it's due to historical unfairness which is perpetuated still.

It's valid after 0930.

You're restricted to trains that stop at Kettering and Bedford. These trains are hourly as I said in my original post.