Jerky Driver on Sleeeper

[yorkie]

but you did get involved in the topic thats the whole point of a forum :roll:

Inappropriate claims are certainly not the point of this forum, and some of the things you have said could cause offence, as you are - however you dress it up - accusing a person of being incompetent at their job despite not having even seen this person, and not knowing any of the circumstances, it appears to be entirely based on guesswork. You run the risk of turning a lot of railway staff against you if you continue to make unsubstantiated /claims.

 

[rail-britain]

What are the speed restrictions for? Are they Network Rail imposed?

This was due to complaints in the 1990s about lack of sleep and several incidents where people were "thrown" out of the top bunk

These had been caused by late running southbound portions before Edinburgh
The drivers were then attempting to make up some time by running at full line speed
However this is inappropriate on a sleeper train between Penrith and Lancaster, especially southbound

Northbound it isn't such an issue, due to the profile of Shap

 

[37401]

anyone care to share there bad drivers on sleeper trains?...or is it rare

Yeah, tell you what we'll name them all too and report them to their managers because that sounds like fun!......

EDIT sorry forgot to add [sarcasm] [/sarcasm]

 

[87031]

Yeah, tell you what we'll name them all too and report them to their managers because that sounds like fun!......

EDIT sorry forgot to add [sarcasm] [/sarcasm]

Thanks for your input very constructive comment

 

[Greenback]

I assume you think it is more constructive to label someone as a bad driver and start a thread inviting others to join in, all based on one experience you have had where you cannot begin to know the circumstances?

 

[Geezertronic]

Maybe I should start a thread on 390 drivers as on occasion the ride is very rough from Euston to Birmingham (not so Birmingham to Euston)....

but of course I know the reason is a) because I am travelling in Coach A which Northbound is the lead vehicle (which IMO and experience leads to a rougher ride at speed), b) the WCML South is not the best for passenger comfort at the best of times, and c) some reason that I am blissfully unaware of not being a railway chap n'all that so infact the drivers are not to blame whatsoever.

Maybe I should start a thread on Travel West Midlands bus drivers

 

[Greenback]

Quite right!

87031 could have started a thread by saying how the journey felt and then asking what sort fo thigns might cause this. Instead, and this was a mistake that I hope they will address in future, they jumped to the conclusion it was simply bad driving. To make matters worse, they then asked everyone else to share their examples of bad driving.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm surprised by what O L Leigh says (although he obviously knows much better than I do) about not being able to tell the speed

I concede that part of it is having a different line of sight which makes judging the speed harder. I've also questioned whether another driver has missed his braking point or is going to overshoot the boards because it all looks different when you're not in the chair.

With the StanEx there are certain places where you need to ease up to avoid catching a slower train ahead (most of which are built into the timings). However, it's often a surprise when travelling PASS because it doesn't feel like the driver is holding back and yet there is no braking at the locations you would expect to catch up the slow train. The only explanation is that the driver really was timing the train correctly and controlling the speed all along but that I couldn't detect it.

I really wouldn't want to guess at a train speed from inside the passenger saloon, at least not without a 10mph margin either side.

I go over Shap pretty regularly (although nowhere near as much as staff would) and I can usually feel when we're going slower than normal (and we arrive late in Penrith, which suggests travelling slower than expected). Because of that, I had always assumed that drivers would be able to feel exactly how fast they were going.

What is it that alerts you to slow running? The feel of the train or the late arrival?

I'm obviously not familiar with WCML timings, but it strikes me as unlikely that there wouldn't be at least a couple of minutes added to allow for trains to get over Shap in order to prevent late running. Therefore I'm only guessing that a late arrival at Penrith means that the driver has used up all the "padding" and then some, therefore running quite a fair bit below linespeed.

Is it maybe that the speed and tilt changes over Shap are so distinctive there that makes it easier to feel? I can't feel it in the same way anywhere South of Shap.

It certainly could be.

Having the scenery passing close by the window also adds to the illusion of speed. The other thing that could add to this on a bendy section of route is the OLE structures being closer together.

O L Leigh

 

[sprinterguy]

Maybe I should start a thread on Travel West Midlands bus drivers

There's a minority of them that would deserve it!

Having worked with TWM in the past, you knew which ones were the "troublemakers" when they came into the office...usually the ones who most vehemently believed that the buses would operate much more effectively if there weren't any "bleedin' passengers"....(Although most bus drivers appear to think this )

 

[37401]

Thanks for your input very constructive comment

Glad to have been of some service, if you ever need me again dont hesitate to give us a shout

 

[87031]

i will your input is very informative

 

[cyclebytrain]

What is it that alerts you to slow running? The feel of the train or the late arrival?

I'm obviously not familiar with WCML timings, but it strikes me as unlikely that there wouldn't be at least a couple of minutes added to allow for trains to get over Shap in order to prevent late running. Therefore I'm only guessing that a late arrival at Penrith means that the driver has used up all the "padding" and then some, therefore running quite a fair bit below linespeed.

It's the feel (although I don't know exactly what it is I feel) that I notice, then I check the time at Penrith. Your explanation of being a lot slower than line speed makes a lot of sense to me. If I haven't felt it and so don't check the time I wouldn't know anything about running late.

If no one here knows, I'll try and remember to ask what the recovery time is between Oxenholme and Penrith (the only recovery time I know off the top of my head is Birmingham-Edinburgh had 11 minutes and that's only because when VHF came in a few staff members mentioned that it would never be enough.)

 

[Scotrail84]

Is this thread not getting abit childish? I wouldnt like it if people sat on train and picked faults with me and i doubt if any of you would like it if someone came into your office or place of work and started picking faults and critisizing any of you.

 

[Kneedown]

A Saltley Driver once told me that the way to run long sleepers, was to gently apply a small brake application, feel the retardation and then to gradually increase it as needed.

The true professionals would come to a stand with the brake handle in release - no jerk as the train came to a stand.

That applies to all loco hauled trains. The jerk is much reduced if the brakes are in the process of releasing at the point of coming to a stand. It's also how i was taught to drive tread brake Sprinters, and how i teach my trainee's to this day. The timing is a little different as with a sprinter the brake release is almost instantaneous, whereas with a loco and stock it takes a while longer, with the brakes releasing from the front of the train first and progressing through to the rear. No two trains perform alike, and if you have a rake of coaches with some of the distributers working a little slower than others you can quite easily get a few snatches. Vacuum brakes took even longer to release, and when working them i often almost came to a premature stand after misjudging the release time!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

it was the night before and as far as i know it was dry

Makes no difference as to whether it's dry or not. You can suffer wheelslip in the middle of a baking summers days if the conditions are right...or not right depending which way you look at it.

 

[TDK]

A Saltley Driver once told me that the way to run long sleepers, was to gently apply a small brake application, feel the retardation and then to gradually increase it as needed.

The true professionals would come to a stand with the brake handle in release - no jerk as the train came to a stand.

I was also told that some of the Southern men considered it the ultimate in the art to apply the brake in a single application, and leave it, releasing at a predetermined point and coming to a graceful stand in the platform with the brake off.

With a 67 if you released the brakes you would get a thump from the coaches as the 67 takes longer for the cylinder pressure to drop,you can do it with the DVT and units quite easily but it is more difficult with engine and stock as you probably well know!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Admittedly there are slow drivers, slow units, poor adhesion... it could be anything.

On my own commute, there are sections of jointed track and certain waypoints that you can tell when a driver is going a bit quick. Ive only ever once thought though "hmm, he best slow down a bit" only for the TPWS to kick in at the PSR and the train come to a complete stand. That, I am fairly certain, was driver error, as the power was on for much longer than normal (wazzing through Carleton Crossing on high power, when usually its coasting through there to the 35mph at P-l-F) and Im reasonable certain is was straight in to a Step 2 brake before the systems took over.

Sometimes if we're lucky, a driver will ignore the latter end of the 45mph near Bamber Bridge, and apply power just as the train passes under the A6 overbridge. Although its difficult to tell much what the speed is most of the way, the jointed track near Pleasington is usually a give-away that we're either travelling faster or slower than normal... the latter almost always when in a Perkins powered 158!

Sorry boing but you have not got a clue what is going on in the cab, if a driver sees a caution signal in the distace for instance he/she will slow and then take full power if the signal clears to green so you cannot determine what is going on in the cab and these sort of comments just make me rollmy eyes and tut! As for the perkins 158 a cummings will accellerate a lot quicker than a perkins from a stand
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was on 1M16 last night and all the way from Edinburgh the driver had no concept to get to a smooth stop, It was like he would go to brake slow down then nearly stop then slam on, had a driver on the same train last year and he was flawless never woke up at any stops after edinburgh, anyone care to share there bad drivers on sleeper trains?...or is it rare

Sorry 87301 you just have not got a clue, all trains differ and it is not necessarily the driver and for an enthusiast to accuse a driver of bad driving just makes us "real" drivers who actually drive proper trains and not on a simulator think people like you shoul start spotting busses

 

[Scotrail84]

With a 67 if you released the brakes you would get a thump from the coaches as the 67 takes longer for the cylinder pressure to drop,you can do it with the DVT and units quite easily but it is more difficult with engine and stock as you probably well know!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sorry boing but you have not got a clue what is going on in the cab, if a driver sees a caution signal in the distace for instance he/she will slow and then take full power if the signal clears to green so you cannot determine what is going on in the cab and these sort of comments just make me rollmy eyes and tut! As for the perkins 158 a cummings will accellerate a lot quicker than a perkins from a stand
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sorry 87301 you just have not got a clue, all trains differ and it is not necessarily the driver and for an enthusiast to accuse a driver of bad driving just makes us "real" drivers who actually drive proper trains and not on a simulator think people like you shoul start spotting busses

Dinny sink tae that level. Your biting mate and i dont think personal attacks on members is very fair. Just leave it.

 

[ladydsm]

Yep, i know and am related to a few Southern region drivers and have heard them say exactly the same thing!

I was told
the art was full 50 then as you are about to stop release back to 5 lb in the dry you could hit the platform at 40mph but then they did not have to stop on the screens and no black box to down load and they could not trickle in to dead end platforms like victoria or the passengers would be walking past them.

 

[anonymous0101]

all trains differ and it is not necessarily the driver and for an enthusiast to accuse a driver of bad driving just makes us "real" drivers who actually drive proper trains and not on a simulator

To play devils advocate I'm sure drivers do have a part to play sometimes. Class 150s seem to stop hard and I've been on an Electrostar where I think the driver put it in step 3 just before coming to a stand and opening the doors.

 

[CarterUSM]

To play devils advocate I'm sure drivers do have a part to play sometimes. Class 150s seem to stop hard and I've been on an Electrostar where I think the driver put it in step 3 just before coming to a stand and opening the doors.

I've always thought that the class 15x with tread brakes tend to stop dead, sharply, no matter how slowly you creep to a halt!

 

[anonymous0101]

Yes like someone else said i think if you can just release the brake on the 15x just before it comes to a stand you can get a smooth stop but i'm not a driver so i shouldn't comment on braking technique.

 

[CarterUSM]

Yes like someone else said i think if you can just release the brake on the 15x just before it comes to a stand you can get a smooth stop but i'm not a driver so i shouldn't comment on braking technique.

You can comment on anything you wish, don't let the drivers kid you on they are privy to some kind of forbidden knoweledge!

 

[boing_uk]

Sorry boing but you have not got a clue what is going on in the cab, if a driver sees a caution signal in the distace for instance he/she will slow and then take full power if the signal clears to green so you cannot determine what is going on in the cab and these sort of comments just make me rollmy eyes and tut! As for the perkins 158 a cummings will accellerate a lot quicker than a perkins from a stand

Sorry to you too old Chum, because I think you have taken my post entirely out of context.

Im fully aware I dont know whats going on in the cab, nor did I say in any part of my post that I did. If you'd like I shall recap the points I was trying to make in my post... unless of course you know the line in question?

some drivers are heavy on the power; some are not.
some drivers apply power at Bamber Bridge well before the end of the 45mph limit and the linespeed increases to 60mph then 70mph. Some dont. Some wait till well after the 60mph board.
one driver got caught out at Carleton Crossing at got pinched by the TPWS. The standing time of 2 mins and the heavy brake application gave that one away.
jointed track gives a good indication of whether you are travelling faster than "normal" or slower than "normal". A Perkins powered 158 very rarely tops out of Pleasington Bank any faster than, I would hesistate to guess at 55mph. The reason for that guess is because its still revving at full power and hasnt dropped down to lower engine revs once whatever it is in the transmission does "its thing". Most Cummins units dont and are already running at lower engine revs.

And finally, if your blood pressure has lowered and you have taken your head out of your posterior for one moment, I will tell you this:

I dont profess to know ANYTHING about the railways or its operations, driving techniques or anthing else. Nor did I ever intend to. My background is engineering and my interests lay firmly with the permenant way aspect, not trains.

BUT: I travel on the line I do 46 weeks a year. Every driver IS different and they control their train differently. Sometimes things out of the ordinary do happen and I can probably second-guess to some extent what is going on.

Do NOT presume that I am an enthusiast who likes to play driver. I dont. My interest is purely engineering. But as a PASSENGER, I notice what is going on and sometimes I like to comment on it, just to make observational comparison.

So please do not patronise me or my comments. I observe, compare and deduct what is going on from my cozy seat as I gaze out of the window.

I have enormous respect for railway folk in general, particularly those on here such as Trog, OT, OL Leigh and the other guys (sorry for not namedropping the others) who not only post sensible discussions, but also give an almost educational insight in to the operational aspects of the railway. But your attitude to my post smells of pomposity, which I will admit, I also tend to do when people try to tell me MY job (and I am sure many on here have plenty of things to say about traffic lights ).

So yeah, sorry TDK for just putting down my observations. However they are also valid observations and non critical of any driver.

Chill ya beans, luv.

 

[87031]

Some good points there boing, I think at the end of the day all drivers are different and when you travel a lot you do notice the difference in the way the train behaves and stops etc. Where human skill is involved there is always gonna be some better than others in all walks of life it's just simple fact

 

[rail-britain]

May I suggest 87031 writes to FSR advising of the poor ride quality
However I would have complained whilst still on the train, equally to find out whether the ride was just that sleeper coach or the entire train

Having travelled on the sleepers many times I am aware of the issues that can affect it, so tend to take the rough with the smooth
I often get woken as the train runs south on Shap and passes through Lancaster (it has vastly improved on what it used to be)
I also tend to get woken when the train has stopped moving (fear of not the train having broken down and missing subsequent connection)

 

[TDK]

Sorry to you too old Chum, because I think you have taken my post entirely out of context.

Im fully aware I dont know whats going on in the cab, nor did I say in any part of my post that I did. If you'd like I shall recap the points I was trying to make in my post... unless of course you know the line in question?

some drivers are heavy on the power; some are not.
some drivers apply power at Bamber Bridge well before the end of the 45mph limit and the linespeed increases to 60mph then 70mph. Some dont. Some wait till well after the 60mph board.
one driver got caught out at Carleton Crossing at got pinched by the TPWS. The standing time of 2 mins and the heavy brake application gave that one away.
jointed track gives a good indication of whether you are travelling faster than "normal" or slower than "normal". A Perkins powered 158 very rarely tops out of Pleasington Bank any faster than, I would hesistate to guess at 55mph. The reason for that guess is because its still revving at full power and hasnt dropped down to lower engine revs once whatever it is in the transmission does "its thing". Most Cummins units dont and are already running at lower engine revs.

And finally, if your blood pressure has lowered and you have taken your head out of your posterior for one moment, I will tell you this:

I dont profess to know ANYTHING about the railways or its operations, driving techniques or anthing else. Nor did I ever intend to. My background is engineering and my interests lay firmly with the permenant way aspect, not trains.

BUT: I travel on the line I do 46 weeks a year. Every driver IS different and they control their train differently. Sometimes things out of the ordinary do happen and I can probably second-guess to some extent what is going on.

Do NOT presume that I am an enthusiast who likes to play driver. I dont. My interest is purely engineering. But as a PASSENGER, I notice what is going on and sometimes I like to comment on it, just to make observational comparison.

So please do not patronise me or my comments. I observe, compare and deduct what is going on from my cozy seat as I gaze out of the window.

I have enormous respect for railway folk in general, particularly those on here such as Trog, OT, OL Leigh and the other guys (sorry for not namedropping the others) who not only post sensible discussions, but also give an almost educational insight in to the operational aspects of the railway. But your attitude to my post smells of pomposity, which I will admit, I also tend to do when people try to tell me MY job (and I am sure many on here have plenty of things to say about traffic lights ).

So yeah, sorry TDK for just putting down my observations. However they are also valid observations and non critical of any driver.

Chill ya beans, luv.

I took your post as I read it, I do value your comments but I do get peeved with posts on here critisising driving techniques of drivers when to be quite frank only a driver of a train can really comment on reasons for powering up early, braking heavily, getting a snatch at the last moment from the coaching stock and it isn't down to people to critisise anything when they do not know the whole apect of the task or job involved. I am sorry if you do not like my comments, but I always respond as I feel nessessary. I could make this post 2 pages long and explain or answer all the comments on here and the reasoning why on some occasions passengers feel it is a rough ride,

A question, how do you know the driver got pinched by the tpws? It could have been anything that caused the EBA, dropped dsd, missed aws, guard messing in the rear cab are just 3, you assumed it was the TPWS and this is my point!!!!!! All emergency brake applications on a lot of units all have a 2m time out! Maybe you can see the reasoning on my initial reaction.

As an engineer interested in railways, the gearbox on the unit you described is a voith gearbox, it has a torque converter and a fluid coupling, once the oil pressure buils up the engine revs drop when the fluid coupling takes over, for a unit with a max speed of 75mph this is between 40 & 50mph, a unit with 90mph max spped it is between 50 & 60 mph all the units vary, some will switch at say 43 and others at say 48. I have driven both cummings and perkins 158's and the cummings leaves the perkins behind on accelleration from 0 - 40 then they are about level.

When you say every driver is different that is correct but then again every unit or train is different and will be driven differently by the same driver on different days!. I also think you may have taken my reply to 87 whatisname as a reply to you, I didn't say you was an enthusiast that quote was for the other guy!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes like someone else said i think if you can just release the brake on the 15x just before it comes to a stand you can get a smooth stop but i'm not a driver so i shouldn't comment on braking technique.

The 150's brakes release very quickly, the art is to fan the brake on and off just before stopping, if you release it the train will still keep rolling, with a 153 the brakes take ages to release and you can drop from step 2 at 10mph and still come to a stand. A 158 is easy to stop nice an smooth as the timing on the air releasing from the cylinder is just right, of course gradients do come into it also, on a down gradient you can in fact come to a smooth stand in stepone without releasing the brake at all!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was told
the art was full 50 then as you are about to stop release back to 5 lb in the dry you could hit the platform at 40mph but then they did not have to stop on the screens and no black box to down load and they could not trickle in to dead end platforms like victoria or the passengers would be walking past them.

a full 50? That must be an art in itself it will take a long time for 50psi to drop to 5.

 

[anonymous0101]

I wonder how good the 172's brakes will be. I'll let you know as soon as i get a go TDK

 

[TDK]

I wonder how good the 172's brakes will be. I'll let you know as soon as i get a go TDK

Probably to the spec of a 168 or 170 unless they use retardation through the gearbox!

 

[krus_aragon]

When travelling on the sleeper in darkness it often looks faster than it really it is

Similarly, when I used to drive the A470 between North and South Wales frequently, I'd feel I was making very good time when driving in the dark, what with the tunnel vision of the headlamps. When I got to the other end, I'd invariably find I'd actually been slower than my normal daytime pace.

 

[richw]

I took your post as I read it, I do value your comments but I do get peeved with posts on here critisising driving techniques of drivers when to be quite frank only a driver of a train can really comment on reasons for powering up early, braking heavily, getting a snatch at the last moment from the coaching stock and it isn't down to people to critisise anything when they do not know the whole apect of the task or job involved. I am sorry if you do not like my comments, but I always respond as I feel nessessary. I could make this post 2 pages long and explain or answer all the comments on here and the reasoning why on some occasions passengers feel it is a rough ride,

surely some drivers do make mistakes, obviously not intentionally but your post is implying that train drivers never mistake, this thread is turning very childish and stupid,
get over yourself, train drivers are humans and will make errors of judgement, they shouldnt be publically critisised but get off your high horse and realise drivers are human and will almost certainly make at least one error a day, however many will go unnoticed!

 

[boing_uk]

A question, how do you know the driver got pinched by the tpws? It could have been anything that caused the EBA, dropped dsd, missed aws, guard messing in the rear cab are just 3, you assumed it was the TPWS and this is my point!!!!!! All emergency brake applications on a lot of units all have a 2m time out! Maybe you can see the reasoning on my initial reaction.

Yes, I assume it was the TPWS because a) the train was going faster than normal even though it was already braking heavily, b) the guard was checking my ticket, c) i assume that a dropped DSD sounds some sort of alarm... being at the front of the train I heard the AWS for the 35mph PSR sound and then shortly after if not immediately after I noticed we were coming to a hard stop,

Now, call me foolish for making an assumption but that is what it was. All the peices of the puzzle fit with the information I observed.

Granted, Im not privvy to the info contained on the speedometer... but as a passenger on the service every day, you know when something is travelling faster or slower than normal.

Higher than normal speed + heavy braking + approaching 35mph speed limit = TPWS activation.

As an engineer interested in railways, the gearbox on the unit you described is a voith gearbox, it has a torque converter and a fluid coupling, once the oil pressure buils up the engine revs drop when the fluid coupling takes over, for a unit with a max speed of 75mph this is between 40 & 50mph, a unit with 90mph max spped it is between 50 & 60 mph all the units vary, some will switch at say 43 and others at say 48. I have driven both cummings and perkins 158's and the cummings leaves the perkins behind on accelleration from 0 - 40 then they are about level.

Yes and the Perkins engined units that Northern have, IME, really struggle up the incline from Bamber Bridge to Pleasington even on full power. The Cummins units fare much better, although some better than others. And 158888 when it was on hire seemed to have nae bother.

When you say every driver is different that is correct but then again every unit or train is different and will be driven differently by the same driver on different days!. I also think you may have taken my reply to 87 whatisname as a reply to you, I didn't say you was an enthusiast that quote was for the other guy!

Yes every driver IS different. And there are some good drivers who manage to get their customers to their destination on time or better and there are those who seem somewhat more... tame. Having travelled the same route continuously for over two years, you get to recognise certain faces.

Personally I like the former as it makes my day to get somewhere early.