Jerky Driver on Sleeeper

[GB]

surely some drivers do make mistakes, obviously not intentionally but your post is implying that train drivers never mistake, this thread is turning very childish and stupid,
get over yourself, train drivers are humans and will make errors of judgement, they shouldnt be publically critisised but get off your high horse and realise drivers are human and will almost certainly make at least one error a day, however many will go unnoticed!

TDK has not implied anywhere (and no one else has denied anywhere) that drivers dont make mistakes. He and others have simply offered other reasons for what might have happened.

I'm sure the drivers amoung this forum would be the first to say drivers can and do make mistakes just like anyone else in any other profession. The issue is the creating of a public thread on the subject (Im sure you wouldn't be too pleased if we created a thread on any mistakes you may of made in your job) and the commenting on such situations without knowing the full facts.

 

[anonymous0101]

Hi Boing_uk

Just a couple of things also, GPS can sometimes be determine train speed and location (depending on whether that sat nav can see enough satellites) and my phone is pretty good at it.

Second thing is not all permanent speed restrictions have tpws speed loops associated with them.

 

[Scotrail84]

Sorry TDK you didny like people criticizing drivers skills and now yer accusing Guards of messing aboot in the back cab! Do you have any evidence to support this. I dinny mess aboot in the back cab and have never caused a UBA.


[A question, how do you know the driver got pinched by the tpws? It could have been anything that caused the EBA, dropped dsd, missed aws, guard messing in the rear cab are just 3, you assumed it was the TPWS and this is my point!!!!!! All emergency brake applications on a lot of units all have a 2m time out! Maybe you can see the reasoning on my initial reaction.

 

[boing_uk]

No, but I can completely understand where TDK is coming from. There are plenty of silly, unjustified and sometimes downright professionally insulting comments made on this forum from time to time. I get exactly the same when someone looks in on my profession from the outside and presumes to tell me MY job.

 

[TDK]

Sorry TDK you didny like people criticizing drivers skills and now yer accusing Guards of messing aboot in the back cab! Do you have any evidence to support this. I dinny mess aboot in the back cab and have never caused a UBA.


[A question, how do you know the driver got pinched by the tpws? It could have been anything that caused the EBA, dropped dsd, missed aws, guard messing in the rear cab are just 3, you assumed it was the TPWS and this is my point!!!!!! All emergency brake applications on a lot of units all have a 2m time out! Maybe you can see the reasoning on my initial reaction.

A couple of occasions I have had the compressor speed up switched in on the move, maybe I should have said switching the wrong switch and not messing about, sorry!

 

[boing_uk]

Just a couple of things also, GPS can sometimes be determine train speed and location (depending on whether that sat nav can see enough satellites) and my phone is pretty good at it.

The speed the train is going is of no interest to me in all honesty. I trust the driver to make all the necessary decisions to keep to time within safe boundaries, if not within speed limits.

The impression I get is that there is too much of a tough stance taken on "speeding" in the rail industry as much as there is on the roads; the same mentality but in a totally different context.

 

[rail-britain]

The impression I get is that there is too much of a tough stance taken on "speeding" in the rail industry as much as there is on the roads; the same mentality but in a totally different context

When I worked at Edinburgh I remember waiting for a HST at Newcastle
Initially it was showing as 30 minutes late
When it arrived at Newcastle it was just 10 minutes late
However as the driver was getting out a senior manager and two BTP officers appeared
As I got the train underway that driver was getting a breath test
When I arrived back in Edinburgh I asked what that was all about
The driver had been recorded "speeding" at 128mph, although they reckon he must have been going faster than that as it was the average between the points recorded between Northallerton and Darlington

 

[TDK]

When I worked at Edinburgh I remember waiting for a HST at Newcastle
Initially it was showing as 30 minutes late
When it arrived at Newcastle it was just 10 minutes late
However as the driver was getting out a senior manager and two BTP officers appeared
As I got the train underway that driver was getting a breath test
When I arrived back in Edinburgh I asked what that was all about
The driver had been recorded "speeding" at 128mph, although they reckon he must have been going faster than that as it was the average between the points recorded between Northallerton and Darlington

You are allowed a tolerance of 3mph and will only be tested if you are 11mph over the speed limit, this is the standard for all TOC's the only time you may get tested under 11mph is if you are specially monitored. The speed limits are there for a reason and they must be adhered to, all drivers creepover on occasions but will brake when they notice they are slightly over, puntuality is always second to safety however I left Cardiff once 21 minutes alate and arrived at Shrewbury 1 minute early this does not mean I was speeding as I wasn't, the service I was working was booked a 5 minute wait at Hereford, pathed behind a HOW from Craven Arms and also had a dwell outside Shrewsbury for 4 minutes. The other time was made up keeping spot on with the line speed and intelligent braking for speed restrictions and stations without affecting the ride and safety so time can be made upon a large scale it all depends on the situation at the time.

BTP officers are not needed when a driver is suspected of any discrepancies, I am not doubting your story however I do not know why the BTP were there!. A breath test is also in a controlled environment and a test from the BTP will not stand it has to be done in a private place, there are many controls that need to be assessed before the test so to be tested on the platform is a one off and to be honest if the unions had been involved they would have thrown the book at the senior manager!

 

[rail-britain]

I do not know why the BTP were there!. A breath test is also in a controlled environment and a test from the BTP will not stand it has to be done in a private place, there are many controls that need to be assessed before the test so to be tested on the platform is a one off and to be honest if the unions had been involved they would have thrown the book at the senior manager

I suspect the BTP were present as the matter had reported direct to them
Equally, it was known they would sometimes sit in the office at Newcastle and watch the screen for trains speeding
I know of one Edinburgh driver that was sacked for speeding between Edinburgh and Newcastle
However, I believe this practice has now ceased

As far as I am aware a platform is a public environment, and not private property

When I worked on the railway I was involved in a rail accident at Aberdeen
The BTP and local police arrived within 30 minutes
As an employee working on the train I was asked if I would submit to a breath test, even though I was not driving the train
I agreed and it was conducted on the platform (they advised me they could not perform it on the actual train, it had to be on the platform)
It was the same for the driver, chief steward, and the three sleeper attendants
None of us objected and all the tests were performed by uniformed BTP officers
However Grampian police had to supply extra tubes so that two other tests could be carried out
I later discovered the signaller was also tested!

As a car driver I have been stopped before on the road
However I stopped on the petrol station forecourt (to which I hold the licence)
I was asked to submit for a breath test, to which I refused
This is permitted as the petrol station is private property

 

[anonymous0101]

Hang on are you saying the BTP used to check if trains were speeding? Which 'screen' are you talking about? The BTP have no operational knowledge of trains - they aren't even allowed in the cab!

 

[GB]

The BTP have no operational knowledge of trains - they aren't even allowed in the cab

!

They are in the course of their duties.

 

[rail-britain]

Hang on are you saying the BTP used to check if trains were speeding? Which 'screen' are you talking about? The BTP have no operational knowledge of trains - they aren't even allowed in the cab!

We used to sit at Edinburgh and watch the "screen" of incoming trains
This showed the headcode, loco, rolling stock, current and previous locations, speed at location
I never asked what the machine was, it is probably called TRUST now

If the speed was above the line speed (known for this location) the senior manager would receive a phone call
The BTP would then be called to see if it was of interest to them
BTP would often sit and watch this
A printout would then be taken
The warning would be issued by the BR manager, witnessed by BTP
Once the warning had been issued the matter would then be passed to BTP
After the warning had been given by BTP the driver would often be suspended awaiting an outcome of the reported over speed and whether BTP were going to take the matter further (which would be known within a few days)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The BTP have no operational knowledge of trains - they aren't even allowed in the cab!

Most officers don't but there are officers that do
When I was involved in the accident at Aberdeen an officer appeared on my next shift, and he clearly knew more about the procedures and operating equipment
Equally, the three officers at that accident all went to the cab
However this was primarily to ensure there were no other persons involved and that the train was secure
They also accessed all the coaches, including the motorail and generator van
They then wanted proof that the train was indeed secure and parked, which we had already done on the loco and brake van
They had also noted the brake on the generator van, but I advised them it was only needed if the brake van was to be removed and separated from the train

An officer could have access to a cab for various reasons, in the same way as they have more access on the railway than local police

 

[scotsman]

Look, can we drop this now. We can't conclude for certain why your sleeper journey was jerky, but you were most definitely wrong in blaming the driver.

Now, can we please get over this and stop these stupid attacks on each other.

 

[Old Timer]

Rail-Britain
Your comments have been brought to my attention.

I am stunned by what I am reading.

What you describe has no basis on BR procedures, neither does it resemble any procedure I have ever known.

As far as the reporting of train speeds was concerned, this was restricted to the PSB print-out and because it was not formally agreed with the Trade Unions could not be used as the basis for any form of action. Only a properly set up speed gun was permitted in evidence.

There is no way that someone would have called the BT Police to see if it was "of interest" to them unless ScotRail was working in some complete vacuum not even known to the Trade Unions.

There is something very, very seriously amiss in what you are describing.

Are there any ex-ScotRail folks on here ?

 

[the sniper]

Now, can we please get over this and stop these stupid attacks on each other.

I think we're already over that now, this thread has suddenly become interesting tonight though!

 

[CarterUSM]

Rail-Britain
Your comments have been brought to my attention.

I am stunned by what I am reading.

What you describe has no basis on BR procedures, neither does it resemble any procedure I have ever known.

As far as the reporting of train speeds was concerned, this was restricted to the PSB print-out and because it was not formally agreed with the Trade Unions could not be used as the basis for any form of action. Only a properly set up speed gun was permitted in evidence.

There is no way that someone would have called the BT Police to see if it was "of interest" to them unless ScotRail was working in some complete vacuum not even known to the Trade Unions.

There is something very, very seriously amiss in what you are describing.

Are there any ex-ScotRail folks on here ?

I brought this to the attention of one or two of my colleagues who are older hands shall we say, but they had heard of no such thing, though to be fair are not Waverley men although have driven there for many years. There is something far wrong with this alleged practice though as has been mentioned, The men would have walked out the bothy back then, even nowadays this would provoke the workforce intolerably!

 

[Scotrail84]

A couple of occasions I have had the compressor speed up switched in on the move, maybe I should have said switching the wrong switch and not messing about, sorry!

158s i work on compressor speed up doesnt stop the train if flicked on whilst on the move (as far as i know). Only works when key is in the relavent cab,however if its left on after building up air then a brake release connot be obtained. I may be wrong though.

 

[Failed Unit]

Rail-Britain
Your comments have been brought to my attention.

I am stunned by what I am reading.

What you describe has no basis on BR procedures, neither does it resemble any procedure I have ever known.

As far as the reporting of train speeds was concerned, this was restricted to the PSB print-out and because it was not formally agreed with the Trade Unions could not be used as the basis for any form of action. Only a properly set up speed gun was permitted in evidence.

There is no way that someone would have called the BT Police to see if it was "of interest" to them unless ScotRail was working in some complete vacuum not even known to the Trade Unions.

There is something very, very seriously amiss in what you are describing.

Are there any ex-ScotRail folks on here ?

It does seem odd on two major points.

1. A hand held breath test is not accurate enough to convict someone of drink driving anyway, the equipment at the station needs to be used, so the BTP would need to get the driver retested anyway. I would ask the question why bother with the hand held?

2. More importantly, speeding in the past was more tollerated (I am not saying BR encouraged it in anyway) A friend of mine who is a driver looks more fondly of those days. If a train was running slightly late and you had a good stretch of track like Darlington - York drivers on occasions took the train above 125mph. As I said not encouraged but it BR did not actively go after drivers doing this, doing Morpeth curve at 55mph would however have met a more harsh response by management. 156's have quite often been noticed above 80mph on mainline routes.

Yes we want drivers to be professional in thier duties, when you look at lorry drivers, train drivers should pollish their halos. How often do you follow a lorry at 40mph on an A-road. My mate also stated that speeding is a matter for the TOC and not the BTP. They have disappline procedures for this.

 

[Greenback]

The story does indeed seem very strange. It may have been some sort of twisted joke by the member of staff that Rail britain talked to. what if the driver had reported seeing something en route, and had to make a statement to the BTP about it? I know from my days on the railway that there were people in all grades who liked to make up a tale and see how far it got!

 

[ukrob]

rail-britain has a habit of stating something as fact, then when questioned or challenged, never posting in the thread again. It has happened in other threads too - I take everything s/he says with a pinch of salt.

 

[Scotrail84]

The story does indeed seem very strange. It may have been some sort of twisted joke by the member of staff that Rail britain talked to. what if the driver had reported seeing something en route, and had to make a statement to the BTP about it? I know from my days on the railway that there were people in all grades who liked to make up a tale and see how far it got!

Ah yes you mean the Railway gravevine, that communication system is quicker than email!

 

[Greenback]

Yes, fond memories! Some of the tales were fantastic!

 

[Soft Mick]

The comfort speed on the Anglo Scottish sleepers between Oxenholme and Penrith is 75, has been for a couple of years. No wonder it feels faster than it used to eh.
The original speed limitation was due to the curves on this section, coupled with pointwork on these curves also. Makes for a bouncy ride
As for the "jerky" ride, yes, could've been the driver but also 25 other reasons.
Perhaps the emergency coupling was used as the buckeye was inoperative?
Ask anyone whose driven a 67 on coacking stock about the snatching with the red coupling on!

Oh, hello all by the way. Been following the forum for a while and this thread just got my goat somewhat!

 

[Scotrail84]

Yes, fond memories! Some of the tales were fantastic!

Yes and its still in full swing today, with epic stories starting as tiny rumours. Great stuff

 

[TDK]

I suspect the BTP were present as the matter had reported direct to them
Equally, it was known they would sometimes sit in the office at Newcastle and watch the screen for trains speeding
I know of one Edinburgh driver that was sacked for speeding between Edinburgh and Newcastle
However, I believe this practice has now ceased

As far as I am aware a platform is a public environment, and not private property

When I worked on the railway I was involved in a rail accident at Aberdeen
The BTP and local police arrived within 30 minutes
As an employee working on the train I was asked if I would submit to a breath test, even though I was not driving the train
I agreed and it was conducted on the platform (they advised me they could not perform it on the actual train, it had to be on the platform)
It was the same for the driver, chief steward, and the three sleeper attendants
None of us objected and all the tests were performed by uniformed BTP officers
However Grampian police had to supply extra tubes so that two other tests could be carried out
I later discovered the signaller was also tested!

As a car driver I have been stopped before on the road
However I stopped on the petrol station forecourt (to which I hold the licence)
I was asked to submit for a breath test, to which I refused
This is permitted as the petrol station is private property

Your original post is ficticious Rail Britain be it you are making it up or someone else has lied to you, I have checked this out and the BTP cannot check the speed of trains and has never been involved unless an accident has occured and all they are then interested in is the results of any investigation, I don't like accusing anyone of spinning a yarn but this time Rail Britain you have and really should not post such fictional posts.Just make sure of the facts as things like this lead to greater things!

What did you do when you worked on the railway to be breath tested?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

158s i work on compressor speed up doesnt stop the train if flicked on whilst on the move (as far as i know). Only works when key is in the relavent cab,however if its left on after building up air then a brake release connot be obtained. I may be wrong though.

It does does dump the brake even if the key is not in the cab, well it did when I drove them 3 years ago!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

However I stopped on the petrol station forecourt (to which I hold the licence)
I was asked to submit for a breath test, to which I refused
This is permitted as the petrol station is private property

Well that's utter bullocks.
http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/crimedrinkdriving.htm

 

[ukrob]

rail-britain has a habit of telling stories, and not just on this thread either.

 

[Scotrail84]

It does does dump the brake even if the key is not in the cab, well it did when I drove them 3 years ago![/QUOTE]

Our 158s had a major refurb a few tears ago and im sure that the speed up wont dump on the brakes now from the back although im not going to try it out
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

rail-britain has a habit of telling stories, and not just on this thread either.

Think there may be a wee bit of fishing going on here by rail britain

 

[Greenback]

Well that's utter bullocks.
http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/crimedrinkdriving.htm

Nice one, I thought it was, but haven't had chance to try and track down the law specifics!

 

[cyclebytrain]

If no one here knows, I'll try and remember to ask what the recovery time is between Oxenholme and Penrith

Apparently it's just over two minutes