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Jerky Driver on Sleeeper

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87031

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Was on 1M16 last night and all the way from Edinburgh the driver had no concept to get to a smooth stop, It was like he would go to brake slow down then nearly stop then slam on, had a driver on the same train last year and he was flawless never woke up at any stops after edinburgh, anyone care to share there bad drivers on sleeper trains?...or is it rare
 
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ukrob

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How do you know it wasn't a fault which was developing on the loco? How do you know it wasn't a dozen other legitimate reasons? Why instantly blame the driver?
 

Aictos

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First time I went on that sleeper I forgot it couples up to the Glasgow portion at Carstairs hence a rude awaking, although I guess that was better then me sleepwalking as I obviously must have done so as we passed though one location and standing by the door admiring the view although I don't actually remember getting out of the berth and was fast asleep as far as I know despite describing the place we passed to another mate perfectly and haven't never been that way before!

I'm just grateful nothing serious happened, still like the second poster said it could be down to anthing don't instantly blame the driver unless you know what the reason was.
 

GB

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How do you know it wasn't a fault which was developing on the loco? How do you know it wasn't a dozen other legitimate reasons? Why instantly blame the driver?

Because internet folk know better than trained professionals!:roll:
 

O L Leigh

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We had a Cl317 that was impossible to stop smoothly. Every time you were rolling to a stop there would be a loud "CHACK" from the WSP further back on the train as it dumped all the air out of the brake cylinders before grabbing hard at the discs which caused an almighty jolt through the couplers. I tried everything I could to drive around the fault but it was just impossible.

It took Ilford ages to trace and rectify the fault. In the meantime it gave a rough stop at each and every station.

O L Leigh
 

Failed Unit

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How do you know it wasn't a fault which was developing on the loco? How do you know it wasn't a dozen other legitimate reasons? Why instantly blame the driver?

I have noticed this in the past. But this is a 16 coach train, so many areas a fault could develop.

Much more likely a driver in a bad mood - I will teach these little <D
 

O L Leigh

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wickerman1.jpg


"I'll never take the mickey out of drivers again!! Let me out...!!!"

O L Leigh
 

87031

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funnily enough i think the 67 wasnt that smooth between inverness and edinburgh could of been something to do with coaches i dunno not into the technical stuff. the loco was 90039 seems to follow me on the sleepers had it on 1M16 last year and it was as smooth as butter, have noticed that class 90s do seem to start slightly different compared to 87s ad 86s, could be harder to control when slow, suppose i would need to speak to a driver on that one. If the rumours are true hopefully it wont be long before the introduction of 92s on the sleepers:)
 

westcoaster

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As you said it was last night, so I'm guessing with the weather it was a wet rail, in which case it was probley wheel spin/slide causing the jerking, nowt the driver can do especially with load 16 on.
 

Old Timer

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A Saltley Driver once told me that the way to run long sleepers, was to gently apply a small brake application, feel the retardation and then to gradually increase it as needed.

The true professionals would come to a stand with the brake handle in release - no jerk as the train came to a stand.

I was also told that some of the Southern men considered it the ultimate in the art to apply the brake in a single application, and leave it, releasing at a predetermined point and coming to a graceful stand in the platform with the brake off.
 

RPM

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Still happens. Known as a "hole in one". One contunious brake application in step 1 coming to a stand exactly at the correct stop board, just a slight brake release at the last moment to give a smooth stop. (Brake has to be put back in once stopped as most stations are not level and it is a requirement to do so before the doors are opened anyway).

It doesn't happen very often though as the brakes vary so much between units so very hard to judge it accurately.
 

rail-britain

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Was on 1M16 last night and all the way from Edinburgh
What was the loco from Edinburgh?
This is a common problem with Class 90 locos during "adverse weather conditions"
It can be especially bad between Carstairs and Lancaster
 

GearJammer

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I was also told that some of the Southern men considered it the ultimate in the art to apply the brake in a single application, and leave it, releasing at a predetermined point and coming to a graceful stand in the platform with the brake off.

Yep, i know and am related to a few Southern region drivers and have heard them say exactly the same thing!
 

87031

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What was the loco from Edinburgh?
This is a common problem with Class 90 locos during "adverse weather conditions"
It can be especially bad between Carstairs and Lancaster


yeah it was 90039 from edinburgh but the weather was dry through the night so could of been other reasons, last year heading northbound on the same train had a driver who decided to not bother sticking to the 80mph either was giving it some welly up shap and beetock, apparantly its 80mph resticted most of the northbound journey i not sure if it applies all the way both directions?
 

rail-britain

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80mph is permitted between Edinburgh and Crewe
However there is a 60mph restriction between Lancaster - Penrith

It is very unlikely the train was doing 80mph up both Beattock and Shap northbound, more like between 50mph and 70mph
However southbound the train is braking for most of the way down Shap, there are special instructions for that to prevent brake fade
 

yorkie

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80mph is what they are meant to stick to, but they can go up to 100mph if delays / diversions occur.

The quality of driving can vary massively. It must be quite a skill to get it just right with a 16 coach train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is very unlikely the train was doing 80mph up both Beattock and Shap northbound, more like between 50mph and 70mph
Are you sure? I doubt a class 90 would struggle with either of these gradients, even with a 16 coach train. I'll have to log the journey with my GPS next time I use the sleeper!
 

the sniper

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last year heading northbound on the same train had a driver who decided to not bother sticking to the 80mph either was giving it some welly up shap and beetock

Or maybe he had the audacity to obey temporary speed restrictions or signals? Just guessing...
 

87031

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80mph is what they are meant to stick to, but they can go up to 100mph if delays / diversions occur.

The quality of driving can vary massively. It must be quite a skill to get it just right with a 16 coach train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you sure? I doubt a class 90 would struggle with either of these gradients, even with a 16 coach train. I'll have to log the journey with my GPS next time I use the sleeper!

now way was he doing 60mph, ive been up there countless times behind 87s on day trains in mk3s and it felt just the same, he probably wanted to get home [comment removed]:D
 
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Old Timer

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87031
I was not going to bother getting involved with this topic, but your posts are becoming somewhat controversial.

You seem to be making various different comments, all of which taken separately or as a whole, which are not borne out by fact but rather by assumption.

If I were one of the driving fraternity I would be starting to get rather unhappy by now.

Unless you can unequivocally back up your statements by established fact I suggest you think long and hard about what you continue to post, especially as you give every indication of being an enthusiast/spotter rather than a Railwayman with knowledge about the things you are posting.
 

87031

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but you did get involved in the topic thats the whole point of a forum :roll:
 

O L Leigh

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When I'm travelling PASS on a train that is travelling over my core route, I can't tell if the driver is doing 80mph or 60mph. It's only through my own knowledge of the passing times that I can get any idea what the driver is really up to. I would respectfully suggest that riding a train in the dark over a route you are not as familiar with, your perception of speed is not going to be a reliable indicator of how the train was being driven.

Likewise, you can get low adhesion conditions even in the dry. I had massive problems getting away from one of our stations this afternoon and had to resort to dropping sand, and yet it hadn't rained for hours.

Train handling is not a simple thing to appreciate. A bumpy ride does not mean that the train was being poorly driven.

O L Leigh
 

rail-britain

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Equally, the sleeper has noted observations on its speed limits
FSR regularly inspect these to ensure the maximum speeds are not exceeded
DBS would also receive notification from Network Rail of a train exceeding the speed limit

When travelling on the sleeper in darkness it often looks faster than it really it is

As above, when the sleeper is running late (more than 59 minutes) the driver may observe the line speed or 100mph, which is the lower
However the 60mph restriction between Lancaster and Penrith MUST be observed, there are NO exceptions

Strangely, there are no such restrictions when the sleeper runs on the ECML
However the current timings (Sunday night) allow for 80mph along with some rather long crew changes at Doncaster (I assume it is Doncaster, but may be York) and Newcastle
 

cyclebytrain

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I'm surprised by what O L Leigh says (although he obviously knows much better than I do) about not being able to tell the speed -I go over Shap pretty regularly (although nowhere near as much as staff would) and I can usually feel when we're going slower than normal (and we arrive late in Penrith, which suggests travelling slower than expected). Because of that, I had always assumed that drivers would be able to feel exactly how fast they were going.

Is it maybe that the speed and tilt changes over Shap are so distinctive there that makes it easier to feel? I can't feel it in the same way anywhere South of Shap.

Still, the most aggressive driver I've ever had was 2 down leaving Wigan NW and 5 early at Preston. The ride did feel a bit less smooth than usual, but I was amazed when we arrived at Preston early. I still can't work out how he managed to be so much quicker than the norm though
 

A60K

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Agree that perception of speed on the sleepers can be way different to reality. I wouldn't like to even make a guess on speed, butt rather would trust the driver is in full control within the specified limits.
 

boing_uk

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Admittedly there are slow drivers, slow units, poor adhesion... it could be anything.

On my own commute, there are sections of jointed track and certain waypoints that you can tell when a driver is going a bit quick. Ive only ever once thought though "hmm, he best slow down a bit" only for the TPWS to kick in at the PSR and the train come to a complete stand. That, I am fairly certain, was driver error, as the power was on for much longer than normal (wazzing through Carleton Crossing on high power, when usually its coasting through there to the 35mph at P-l-F) and Im reasonable certain is was straight in to a Step 2 brake before the systems took over.

Sometimes if we're lucky, a driver will ignore the latter end of the 45mph near Bamber Bridge, and apply power just as the train passes under the A6 overbridge. Although its difficult to tell much what the speed is most of the way, the jointed track near Pleasington is usually a give-away that we're either travelling faster or slower than normal... the latter almost always when in a Perkins powered 158! :lol:
 
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