James st Liverpool (apparent) peculiarity.

[Loop Line]

Hello, I was just wondering why the Loop Line closures in Liverpool have resulted in Platform 3 being closed and the usually out of use platform 2 being opened along with platform 1. Both platforms are sending train North and South on Wirral so it doesn't look like they are using them as a 'West Kirby/New Brighton' and 'Chester/Ellesmere Port' separation. Also, why would they not use platforms 2 and 3 as they are next to each other? It seems odd to have shut 3 and opened 2 while still using the isolated platform 1.

Is there a reason that a third platform had to be built in the first place? Could a tunnel for the loop(to Moorfields) not be dug from the one already existing as was done with the route up from Central?

 

[8J]

Hi Loop Line and welcome to the forum!

James St is a strange one...

The reason that Plt 1 + 2 was used for the closure is that there is a set of points from the line towards Liverpool that links plt 1 + 2. There is no link from the up line to platform 3 so they can't use it.

Similarly there is no link from the down line from Liverpool Central to Platform 2. That is why during the refurb of plt3, they did not use plt2 instead.

The reason why there is 3 platforms dates back to the days of the loop line construction. The Wirral line used to terminate at Liverpool Central (Northern Line Platforms) as it once called at James St and then straight to Central via what is now the stock interchange line. Platform 1 was constructed in the 70's to allow services to serve Moorfields and Lime St. So Platforms 2 + 3 are the original James St Platforms.

The design of the loop line meant that it made sense to use Platform 3 as opposed to platform 2, despite the fact that Plt2 is closer to the lifts.

Hope this explains it

JTD

 

[robertclark125]

Basically, if they hadn't built platform 3, the curve to reach Moorfields would've been far too tight, hence a new platform was built instead. It's for the same reason a new Jesmond station was built for the Tyne and Wear Metro, rather than use the then BR station in open air.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And the "line blocked" blinking red light was placed at the Birkenhead end of P3 for the recent blockade, so it couldn't be used.

Hopefully all will be back to normal with the Loop tomorrow (except for Lime St of course - another 10 days before it reopens).

I think the passenger route to/from P2 is the shortest of the three.
The platform was rather dingy with ancient stairs but the operation was quite interesting.

 

[8J]

I liked using Plt2 myself. I like the old style open tunnel as opposed to the horrible white plasticy refurb they did on Platform 3. I wish they would have removed the 1970's brown plastic fittings and restored the old tiling to make it like platform 2 but refreshed!

Shame really. I walked up the stairs in congestion and someone in front of me touched the celling of plt2 on the stairs and a load of brick/plaster disintegrated from the roof! Kind of odd seeing it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hopefully all will be back to normal with the Loop tomorrow (except for Lime St of course - another 10 days before it reopens).

Are there now any more planned infrastructural works on the Loop (my records show a reopening date of 22nd August for the Lime Street platforms) ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are there now any more planned infrastructural works on the Loop (my records show a reopening date of 22nd August for the Lime Street platforms) ?

Not for this year.
But it seems to be becoming a regular summer event...

 

[headshot119]

And the "line blocked" blinking red light was placed at the Birkenhead end of P3 for the recent blockade, so it couldn't be used.

Hopefully all will be back to normal with the Loop tomorrow (except for Lime St of course - another 10 days before it reopens).

I think the passenger route to/from P2 is the shortest of the three.
The platform was rather dingy with ancient stairs but the operation was quite interesting.

More the fact there aren't a set of points to get into platform 3 coming from Hamilton Square, nor is there a signal at the other end to make it a signaled move even if there were a set of points.

 

[Loop Line]

Thanks for so many useful responses so quickly.
It's a bit of an odd curiosity to have but I just thought I'd ask about.

Is this business with conections thereason for the odd platform layout at Hamilton Square? Why the out platforms are not together with the Up line to Liverpool as the seperate one.

 

[Tomnick]

I don't think the lack of a facing connection into platform 3 is anything to do with the layout at Hamilton Square, but rather simply that provision of such a facing connection could never reasonably be justified - it'd never be needed in normal operation!

 

[507 001]

Thanks for so many useful responses so quickly.
It's a bit of an odd curiosity to have but I just thought I'd ask about.

Is this business with conections thereason for the odd platform layout at Hamilton Square? Why the out platforms are not together with the Up line to Liverpool as the seperate one.

No, the west kirby/new Brighton platform is on its own because the line dives under the Chester bound line. This avoids having a flat junction and therefore improves capacity.

Technically the out platforms ARE together though as you only have to walk down a short corridor, as opposed to up and over the footbridge.

 

[Loop Line]

Ah ok. It just seemed odd that the lines have to cross at all. I would have expected the northbound line to be to the north of the line to Chester and then they could just diverge after the station rather than crossing each other.

 

[Tomnick]

Makes sense to keep the two Chester lines together through the junction though - are they both in one double line bore? You'd have to take the Down Chester line off on its own alignment if you wanted the Down West Kirby line to avoid passing under it - for what benefit?

 

[Loop Line]

I suppose they must have had a reason to stick the New Brighton platform where they did instead of on the other side of the Chester one.

 

[eps200]

You may find this diagram helps with getting your head around the layout. it's for a proposed extension to the system but if you ignore the proposed bits in red it's handy.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's a very interesting diagram.
Coupled with electrification east of Hunt's Cross it would offer many new journey opportunities.
But I don't suppose that's what Merseytravel have in mind...

 

[eps200]

It's not mine just the best illustration of the track layout a quick google pulled up.

I personally favour the wapping tunnel being used to take the Liverpool central terminators out onto the city line via edge hill freeing up some capacity at lime street.

 

[Loop Line]

Oooooooooooohhhhhhh. Most interesting. I would have done this with the lines at Hamilton Sq... Northernmost platform to go north and southernmost to go south. Both down platforms logically placed together and the third one on the northern rather than southern side of the station for all up trains. Same burrowing junction but with the up and down trains all together. I have draw a pic of it but im not sure how to upload it to here.

 

[507 001]

Oooooooooooohhhhhhh. Most interesting. I would have done this with the lines at Hamilton Sq... Northernmost platform to go north and southernmost to go south. Both down platforms logically placed together and the third one on the northern rather than southern side of the station for all up trains. Same burrowing junction but with the up and down trains all together. I have draw a pic of it but im not sure how to upload it to here.

But if you did what I THINK your saying you would lose the cross platform interchange facility that you have now!

At the moment, the outbound departures are on what is effectively an island platform, just at slightly different heights, and the inbound trains are all on the same platform.
Your proposal would make interchanges harder and bring no operational benefit I'm afraid!

 

[table38]

This route learning video shows the Stock Interchange line and James St Platform 2 from abot 59 minutes in:

[youtube]MqQSrrXmrjk[/youtube]

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This route learning video shows the Stock Interchange line and James St Platform 2 from abot 59 minutes in:

Good to see this stretch again 35 years on.
Bit slow in places (5mph!).

 

[Eagle]

It's really cool seeing the difference between the wide high-vaulted tunnels of the Mersey Railway and the more modern tube tunnels of the Loop.

 

[Loop Line]

Ah no, I'd simply have the slightly lower level platform on the other side of the pair and have the trains on them going slightly differently. The convenience of having them all close together would not be lost. I'd also have a snooker club upstairs

 

[8J]

I have seen a fair few proposals, one including James st platform 2 then using the stock interchange line to leeds st junction then building another tunnel under the existing single bore tunnels of the northern line and a sharp right hand turn to a new platform at Liverpool Central low level. After central low level, the proposed route heads south towards hunts cross, but then merges with the old disused wapping tunnel and then the train heads towards edge hill junction. After edge hill junction, the train merges onto the Bootle Branch line serving new stations such as anfield, tuebrook etc...

These are just proposals that I've been told about, but if implemented, they sound great!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's really cool seeing the difference between the wide high-vaulted tunnels of the Mersey Railway and the more modern tube tunnels of the Loop.

Would the height of the original Mersey Railway tunnels have been designed to allow the smoke problems that steam locomotives in a tunnel situation would cause to be somewhat dissipated?

 

[pablo]

Loop,
Hamilton Square was originally a flat junction for both routes. Sending the WK/NB route into a new station tunnel and a diveunder was the easiest and cheapest solution to avoid flat conflicts which were incompatible with the higher frequency then proposed, but not implemented. Bh Park was given a central turnback siding in anticipation of all the hurry. It was taken out about twenty years later in a consolidation onto one island platform. History, mate, history.

Paul,
Were there TBMs that could cut through sandstone then? Think it was drill and blast, and a brick lining making one bore best. Smoke's why it was electrified so promptly about the turn of the century.

 

[AntoniC]

Its rumoured that next year Moorfields will be renovated.

I use it every day to get to/from work and its a dump !.

70`s brown plastic cladding , an incredibly smelly corridor from the trains to the escalators and a cheap & nasty rubber flooring !

 

[headshot119]

Its rumoured that next year Moorfields will be renovated.

I use it every day to get to/from work and its a dump !.

70's brown plastic cladding , an incredibly smelly corridor from the trains to the escalators and a cheap & nasty rubber flooring !

Exactly like the other three before refurbishment then

 

[8J]

Hamilton Sq WK/NB platform is the worst. There is a big brown mark on the formaldehyde tunnel linings (not too sure if its a burn or damp. The floors are covered in stains and very greasy. The lifts are unreliable. However I am a regular user of the Northern Line and have worked during the peak hours on the trains and I can safely say that Moorfields serves more passengers than Ham Sq. I hope Moorfields gets the TLC before Ham Sq for that reason.

 

[Loop Line]

I actually rather like the brown and yellow scheme. Suits my retro attire. Although I do also see the need to freshen up the place. Tiles and brass hand rails would be nice.