Jacobite cancellations 2023

[alexl92]

Rumours on Facebook (which I’m very cautious about believing) suggest there was a ‘serious incident’ last week. Presume it’s hearsay but can anyone put us straight?

 

[james_the_xv]

Rumours on Facebook (which I’m very cautious about believing) suggest there was a ‘serious incident’ last week. Presume it’s hearsay but can anyone put us straight?

If there was a serious incident, we will likely see a RAIB publication soon.

 

[Alanko]

Lots of gricers upset on Facebook that you can't stick your head out of train windows on the mainline any more, so possibly something to do with that!

 

[alexl92]

If there was a serious incident, we will likely see a RAIB publication soon.

Very true. I shall assume false until I see otherwise.

 

[John Bishop]

This must be hitting WCRC hard in the pocket with all these thousands of refunds being given. It’s seems they don’t learn from previous ORR prohibition notices, very poor and will only drag their reputation further into the gutter.

 

[Killingworth]

I can't paste the full West Coast information but this is the latest on their website; https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-travel-information-the-jacobite-1

Suspended until at least 26th with full refunds being processed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't paste the full West Coast information but this is the latest on their website; https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-travel-information-the-jacobite-1

Suspended until at least 26th with full refunds being processed.

Is there a reason (other than them being cheap) they can't fit magnetic door locks as were used on the Chiltern bubble cars and are used on the Swanage DMU that goes onto the mainline, and perhaps even droplight locks as per the Night Riviera? It must surely be cheaper than paying stewards, unless they're all volunteers in return for a free train ride?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is there a reason (other than them being cheap) they can't fit magnetic door locks as were used on the Chiltern bubble cars and are used on the Swanage DMU that goes onto the mainline, and perhaps even droplight locks as per the Night Riviera? It must surely be cheaper than paying stewards, unless they're all volunteers in return for a free train ride?

There’s no reason other than WCR don’t won’t to pay for it, they’ve said they will if someone else pays.

 

[John R]

There’s no reason other than WCR don’t won’t to pay for it, they’ve said they will if someone else pays.

I wonder how the cost would compare with the loss of income for however many days the service will be suspended.

 

[31160]

Well I've got absolutely no sympathy for West Coast in all this,they knew it was coming and instead of biting the bullet and get on with fitting locks they've done nothing in the hope they will be handed a get around, and apparently if rumours are to be believed letting the tourists lean out to take pictures and announcements on how to operate the secondary door locks themselves well words fail me

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s no reason other than WCR don’t won’t to pay for it, they’ve said they will if someone else pays.

I'd deny them the exemption, then. They just need to open their wallet and get it done.

 

[jamieP]

I'd deny them the exemption, then. They just need to open their wallet and get it done.

Would you say the same of Vintage Trains?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you say the same of Vintage Trains?

TBH I think all mainline charter stock should be fitted with door locks. There's an off the shelf product now, there's really no excuse not to. There's even an argument to extend that to heritage railways, though with the 25mph limit the case is weaker.

 

[trei2k]

There is a BBC News article now:

Hogwarts Express steam train cancelled over safety issues

The Jacobite steam train seen in the Harry Potter films has been suspended over safety fears.

www.bbc.co.uk

Services on the "Hogwarts Express" steam train have been cancelled in the Scottish Highlands over safety issues.
Popular tourist train The Jacobite was made famous by its appearances in the Harry Potter films.
Operator West Coast Railways said services had been suspended after safety inspectors identified an issue with the hinged door train carriages.
The route runs between Fort William and Mallaig across the the iconic Glenfinnan Viaduct.

The train operates on the West Highland Line under an exemption granted by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) that allows the continued use of heritage rolling stock.
Thousands of Harry Potter fans visit the Highlands every year to travel on the historic train and witness it crossing the viaduct.

The train has been out of action since the weekend and West Coast Railways had hoped to resume services this week.
However, the operator said an unannounced visit by ORR inspectors found "a couple of issues of concern".

West Coast Railways said: "As of now, passenger journeys on the Jacobite, have been suspended while West Coast Railways review the concerns raised by the ORR to reach a satisfactory and swift solution to the issues raised.
"Please accept our sincere apologies for these cancellations, however this is completely beyond our control."

West Coast Railways said it was offering a full refund to passengers and it hoped to run services again "as soon as possible".

 

[Deepgreen]

Presumably if the issue is primarily door-related, using diesels won't make any difference so that must have been fire risk-related.

 

[Titfield]

If this is an issue caused by WCR's policies (as opposed to being a "set" issue) then surely the ORR would have instructed a cessation of all operations.

 

[james_the_xv]

TBH I think all mainline charter stock should be fitted with door locks. There's an off the shelf product now, there's really no excuse not to.

I concur with this. It isn't worth the safety risk or the risk to the charter operations sector as a whole. Isn't the first time WCR have had a flagrant disregard for the rules either. It would be a shame but I hope they get slapped with another prohibition notice and told to sort their sh*t out before someone seriously injures themselves because of WCR mismanagement and ego.

 

[yorksrob]

WCR have been very much to blame for past shortcomings, but lets not kid ourselves, this current situation sounds entirely due to the slam door hysteria that's gripped the industry for the past twenty years.

 

[kingqueen]

Now everybody else gets to experience what wheelchair users do: no access to the Jacobite.

 

[Iskra]

WCR have been very much to blame for past shortcomings, but lets not kid ourselves, this current situation sounds entirely due to the slam door hysteria that's gripped the industry for the past twenty years.

It’s more like the last 5 years, and due to two high profile fatalities. As much as I like slam door/droplight stock, it’s not worth people dying over it. The rules are spelled out clearly, and if they aren’t followed then only the operator is accountable for that.

 

[paul1609]

TBH I think all mainline charter stock should be fitted with door locks. There's an off the shelf product now, there's really no excuse not to. There's even an argument to extend that to heritage railways, though with the 25mph limit the case is weaker.

For Vacuum braked MK1 stock its not really the case that there's an off the shelf product that can be fitted. All the CDL systems in use currently either use compressed air or electric locking. A air braked coach can use a feed off that system. The 24 volt electrical system on a vac braked/ steam heat Mk1 doesn't have enough capacity to work a CDL system especially when its only running at 30mph (Jacobite) either.
There are of course technical solutions these days, but they would require quite significant approvals for use on the national network

 

[yorksrob]

It’s more like the last 5 years, and due to two high profile fatalities. As much as I like slam door/droplight stock, it’s not worth people dying over it. The rules are spelled out clearly, and if they aren’t followed then only the operator is accountable for that.

I like buses, but is it worth people dying over it, them being able to fall off of the back of platforms or walk in front of them etc.

There needs to be a proper analysis of where risk actually is, rather than knee jerk policy against charter stock where people choose to experience the "high risk" activity of travelling in a mk1 carriage (as opposed to similar activities such as sky diving or go cart racing).

 

[kje7812]

In an article on Rail Advent https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2023/0...nt-on-jacobite-steam-train-cancellations.html, the following statement from the ORR can be found:
“A safety inspector from the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) visited the Jacobite service run by West Coast Railway Company Limited (WCRCL) on Friday 9 June 2023. This inspection found safety failings which ORR considered breached Health and Safety Legislation and accordingly ORR issued WCRCL with a prohibition notice which came into effect at 00:01 on 15 June 2023 and which prevented it from running until WCRCL was satisfied that it could rectify the issues raised in that notice. The prohibition notice is published at P/KB/14062023 West Coast Railway Company Ltd prohibition notice (windows.net). The Jacobite service recommenced on 15 June 2023.


Safety inspectors from ORR subsequently visited the Jacobite service run by WCRCL on Friday 14 July. This inspection found safety failings which ORR considered breached the earlier prohibition notice and the conditions contained in WCRCL's Railway Safety Regulation Exemption Certificate. This type of exemption certificate is required for all train operators who want to use carriages without central door locking fitted – ordinarily heritage carriages of the type used on the Jacobite service. Due to the safety issues identified, ORR has revoked WCRCL's Exemption Certificate. WCRCL will continue to be able to use carriages without central door locking fitted on its other services in accordance with the conditions of a new Exemption Certificate.

ORR is working with WCRCL to ensure robust safety arrangements are in place to allow WCRCL to use heritage carriages on the Jacobite line in the near future. In the interim, it is open to WCRCL to use alternative carriages to operate the Jacobite service.”

 

[rustbucket]

Now suspended until 31st July, obviously still no quick solution available

 

[YorkshireBear]

I feel for the businesses suffering from this. I suspect this will do quite a bit of damage to the Jacobites reputation too.

 

[Bill57p9]

Story has been picked up by BBC News: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-66271357

Services on the "Hogwarts Express" steam train have been cancelled in the Scottish Highlands over safety issues.
The popular tourist train The Jacobite was made famous by its appearances in the Harry Potter films.
Safety inspectors said door locking issues put passengers at risk of falling from carriages or being hit while leaning out of windows.
Thousands of Potter fans visit every year to ride the train and witness it crossing the iconic Glenfinnan viaduct.

The train operates on the West Highland Line between Fort William and Mallaig.
It relies on an exemption granted by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) that allows the continued use of heritage rolling stock.
Operator West Coast Railways said all services had been suspended while it reviews concerns raised in the ORR report.

The train has been out of action since the weekend and West Coast Railways had hoped to resume services this week.
However, the operator said an unannounced visit by ORR inspectors found "a couple of issues of concern".
The ORR highlighted problems with procedures around secondary door locks and found West Coast Railways were putting passengers "at risk of serious personal injury".
Its report stated that train stewards were not preventing passengers from operating the door locks.
The ORR also found that stewards were not stopping passengers from leaning on train doors or hanging out of open windows while the train was moving.

In a statement, West Coast Railways said: "As of now, passenger journeys on the Jacobite, have been suspended while West Coast Railways review the concerns raised by the ORR to reach a satisfactory and swift solution to the issues raised.
"Please accept our sincere apologies for these cancellations."
West Coast Railways supplied Warner Bros with the locomotive and carriages used in the Harry Potter film series.
The Jacobite train makes two trips a day, using some of the same carriages that were used for filming.
The operator said it was offering a full refund to passengers and it hoped to run services again "as soon as possible".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==

The observations in the Prohibition Notice are interesting:

1) Passengers are being told by train crew to operate the secondary door
locks;
2) Stewards are not preventing passengers from operating the secondary door
locks;
3) Stewards are not preventing passengers from leaning on train doors or from
leaning out of the open droplight windows in train doors of moving trains;
and
4) Secondary door locks are not in the ‘locked’ position or are being opened by
train crew before the train is stationary;

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I know people jump on this sort of comment, but it’s a wonder there haven’t been thousands of fatalities over the years from passengers riding on charter trains utilising all this clearly unsafe rolling stock. Or wait... maybe it isn't actually unsafe and the ORR are a bunch of paranoid idiots.

 

[yorksrob]

I know people jump on this sort of comment, but it’s a wonder there haven’t been thousands of fatalities over the years from passengers riding on charter trains utilising all this clearly unsafe rolling stock. Or wait... maybe it isn't actually unsafe and the ORR are a bunch of paranoid idiots.

You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

ORR should check that the door exams are carried out correctly, so that the slam-shut mechanism works and the doors are therefore safe, and have done with it.

 

[Iskra]

I like buses, but is it worth people dying over it, them being able to fall off of the back of platforms or walk in front of them etc.

There needs to be a proper analysis of where risk actually is, rather than knee jerk policy against charter stock where people choose to experience the "high risk" activity of travelling in a mk1 carriage (as opposed to similar activities such as sky diving or go cart racing).

That’s exactly what the policy is, it’s not against MK1’s themselves but the doors/windows that enable people to come to harm. Mitigation has been put in place, but is being ignored. Saphos can do it, so it’s not the coaching stock, but the operator that is at fault here and it’s quite right that they don’t operate if they can’t do so safely within the agreed protocol.

 

[Trackman]

The observations in the Prohibition Notice are interesting:
1) Passengers are being told by train crew to operate the secondary door
locks;
2) Stewards are not preventing passengers from operating the secondary door
locks;
3) Stewards are not preventing passengers from leaning on train doors or from
leaning out of the open droplight windows in train doors of moving trains;
and
4) Secondary door locks are not in the ‘locked’ position or are being opened by
train crew before the train is stationary;

I understand numbers 2,3,& 4 could you please elaborate on no.1?