Issues with Carnet Tickets

[nedchester]

I'm not keen on these carnet tickets. Wide open to fraud on one side, and wide open to problems, maybe caused by something as daft as bad handwriting!

So then 'Zee', am I to take it that the inspector withdrew your ticket and kept hold of it? If so, that will be central to any case they may decide to bring against you. If it was clearly dated with the correct date, then I can't see how they could bring a fare evasion case to Court. If it wasn't clearly dated, then it's probably a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution.

Something I've always thought about with Rovers and suchlike. If you have bad handwriting (and a lot of people do). Is that a reason to start prosecuting people who have done nothing wrong? I think if the bad handwriting issue came to court then it wouldn't result in a successful prosecution.

Dates could 'look' altered but again it may be a case of bad handwriting. Only some quite sophisticated forensics could identify that.

 

[jon0844]

The carnet tickets are definitely high risk for passengers given the ease at which you can effectively destroy a ticket before it has even been used. If the ink doesn't flow first time, you're often screwed; whatever happens next could like you've altered the ticket.

The mag strip should save you but only if there are gates in use and they don't reject it (as happens on mine at Hatfield) which only gives more reason for staff to suspect you've tampered with them.

 

[maniacmartin]

The carnet tickets are definitely high risk for passengers given the ease at which you can effectively destroy a ticket before it has even been used. If the ink doesn't flow first time, you're often screwed; whatever happens next could like you've altered the ticket.

I wish instead of printing the date box, it printed something like "Write date top-left on reverse". Writing on the reverse of the ticket would make more sense, as it doesn't have that awful glossy coating so would stop tickets being inadvertently destroyed!

 

[benk1342]

I wish instead of printing the date box, it printed something like "Write date top-left on reverse". Writing on the reverse of the ticket would make more sense, as it doesn't have that awful glossy coating so would stop tickets being inadvertently destroyed!

I think the ticket stock should be modified across the board so that there is a non-glossy area in the top right of all tickets. This area could be used for carnets and for vending-machine-issued seasons on which one is required to hand-write his or her photocard number. For tickets that do not require any writing it would just be harmlessly left blank.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The carnet tickets are definitely high risk for passengers given the ease at which you can effectively destroy a ticket before it has even been used.

Not to mention that the validity information on FCC's website is still inconsistent with the restriction code for tickets to areas that do not normally have an evening peak restriction, creating unfair risk for those with off-peak carnets.

 

[maniacmartin]

I did think about a non-glossy top right too, but assumed that this might be more expensive to implement. That said, I forgot about photocard numbers!

 

[jon0844]

My off peak tickets are not rejected at King's Cross and if I ever got hassle, I'd point out that a carnet pack is 10 tickets for the price of 9. They must therefore be the exact same tickets with the exact same restrictions.

 

[benk1342]

My off peak tickets are not rejected at King's Cross and if I ever got hassle, I'd point out that a carnet pack is 10 tickets for the price of 9. They must therefore be the exact same tickets with the exact same restrictions.

I agree, and when I used them I never had a problem in practice, either. You could also point to the website which supports your position. The problem is that the restriction code still says the off-peak carnets are not valid in the evening peak even for stations not normally subject to evening-peak restrictions.

Frankly I think that the website and everyday practice reflect FCC's intent, and the restriction code is an error. But they need to fix it and haven't yet.

 

[oversteer]

Simple solution, a stamping device like the French "composter" .. not stamped, not valid .. and no fiddling with pens.

Maybe the barrier could be upgraded to do it automatically! (OK now I really am dreaming)

 

[jon0844]

A very good idea! Ticket gates in Barcelona print on the reverse of the ticket but obviously you'd need to replace them all, but a simple 'carnet validator' machine (1 per station) is ideal.

 

[benk1342]

Simple solution, a stamping device like the French "composter" .. not stamped, not valid .. and no fiddling with pens.

Maybe the barrier could be upgraded to do it automatically! (OK now I really am dreaming)

That's simple where there are barriers but not simple where there aren't. When I was in Rome boarding the train to the airport luckily there was a member of staff on the platform who reminded me to get my ticket stamped---or else I might not have known. There were several other people on the train who didn't know and were charged the local analogue of a penalty fare, despite it seeming pretty clear that they were one-time train users from outside the country who had bought their tickets immediately before boarding for that specific journey and had no intention of attempting to reuse the tickets. One man refused to back down and the police were called and met the train at the airport station. I'm not sure I would have taken it that far but I would have been pretty upset if I had bought a ticket and boarded the train in good faith, only to discover I was supposed to have got it stamped by a machine. I'm sure there are signs, probably even in English, but I'm not sure I would have noticed them or thought to look for them if the staff member hadn't pointed it out.

 

[jon0844]

That's surely not a problem as everyone who buys a carnet pack will get instructions (printed on each ticket) saying what to do. There's also other literature available, to explain you must write on the date before travel.

I am sure you could still manually write the date on, if you dared, but it would certainly help if you don't have a pen handy.

Anyone with a normal ticket has no reason to use one, as there's no suggestion that ordinary tickets need to be validated (unless we change our ticketing system so tickets aren't dated).

 

[cjmillsnun]

A very good idea! Ticket gates in Barcelona print on the reverse of the ticket but obviously you'd need to replace them all, but a simple 'carnet validator' machine (1 per station) is ideal.

I think more than one per station would be required otherwise the queues at peak times could be horrendous.

 

[jon0844]

If there are that many carnet users perhaps but I've used validators abroad and there's often one per platform and that's with almost everyone needing to use them.

This is for people to stamp before they go through the gates (too late on the other side) but clearly at King's Cross or where there are multiple gate lines then you'd have more.

I can't see FCC paying for loads in case a group of carnet users all turn up at once. They're only to offer a better/safer way to mark them anyway.

 

[jon0844]

I don't understand why the barriers just don't stamp the tickets

Because they don't have printing facilities inside them. The mag strip will note it has been used however. If gates were always in use at all stations, dating the ticket wouldn't be needed at all.

Perhaps when they introduce smart ticketing you'll just get your ninth ticket purchase free and that's it. Or a discount on a sliding scale that further rewards regular travel by people who don't need a season ticket.

Also: are you going to note the error you get when you next have a ticket rejected? I'd like to pass this on to FCC for their (somewhat slow) investigation.

 

[12CSVT]

Something I've always thought about with Rovers and suchlike. If you have bad handwriting (and a lot of people do). Is that a reason to start prosecuting people who have done nothing wrong? I think if the bad handwriting issue came to court then it wouldn't result in a successful prosecution.

Dates could 'look' altered but again it may be a case of bad handwriting. Only some quite sophisticated forensics could identify that.

Another problem is the real possibility of somebody with conditions such as dyslexia being criminalised because they have written the date wrongly. Or somebody with deteriorating eyesight, arthritis in the wrist, etc.
Or something as simple as a pen not working properly.

 

[jon0844]

I wrote the date wrong (the month before) and corrected it and it looked very dodgy. It went through a gate so I wasn't too worried as it would have been time stamped properly, but someone making an error must happen regularly.

 

[RJ]

Another problem is the real possibility of somebody with conditions such as dyslexia being criminalised because they have written the date wrongly. Or somebody with deteriorating eyesight, arthritis in the wrist, etc.
Or something as simple as a pen not working properly.

Anyone who knows they cannot write two digits clearly in a box should either get someone to do it on their behalf, or use a different ticket. Nobody is forcing them to use carnets.

Pragmatic solutions should always prevail over pathetic excuses for not having a clearly filled in box when the ticket inspector requests to see it.

 

[LondonJohn]

Anyone who knows they cannot write two digits clearly in a box should either get someone to do it on their behalf, or use a different ticket. Nobody is forcing them to use carnets.

Pragmatic solutions should always prevail over pathetic excuses for not having a clearly filled in box when the ticket inspector requests to see it.

But what if you are disabled and still travel freely but need help. Its already clear that these carnet's are a disaster waiting to happen. I would even go as far as to say that you could be on grounds of discriminiation in denying someone that is disabled with learning difficulties (cerabal palsy) for example the same ticket types as an able bodied person because they could experience difficulty completing something (that a few able bodied people people still have difficulty with).

 

[Robsignals]

But what if you are disabled and still travel freely but need help. Its already clear that these carnet's are a disaster waiting to happen. I would even go as far as to say that you could be on grounds of discriminiation in denying someone that is disabled with learning difficulties (cerabal palsy) for example the same ticket types as an able bodied person because they could experience difficulty completing something (that a few able bodied people people still have difficulty with).

If 24 hrs notice is given will they have a member of staff ready to write in the date?

 

[RJ]

But what if you are disabled and still travel freely but need help. Its already clear that these carnet's are a disaster waiting to happen. I would even go as far as to say that you could be on grounds of discriminiation in denying someone that is disabled with learning difficulties (cerabal palsy) for example the same ticket types as an able bodied person because they could experience difficulty completing something (that a few able bodied people people still have difficulty with).

You're right. Either everyone should be able to make use of them, or nobody. If the TOCs cannot make special arrangements for passengers who need assistance, then the TOCs should discontinue their sale and encourage use of season tickets day returns instead. Same goes for Flexi Rovers!

 

[b0b]

I wrote the date wrong (the month before) and corrected it and it looked very dodgy. It went through a gate so I wasn't too worried as it would have been time stamped properly, but someone making an error must happen regularly.

It seems to me they shouldn't be selling tickets that require a written date on ticket stock that seems to need "the right kind of pen" to write the date on the ticket. The ticket doesn't seem fit for the purpose, if a regular biro has issues with marking the ticket correctly.

Even worse, FCC has to know this problem, but still seems to be very aggressive about accusing people of fare evasion!

 

[RJ]

It seems to me they shouldn't be selling tickets that require a written date on ticket stock that seems to need "the right kind of pen" to write the date on the ticket. The ticket doesn't seem fit for the purpose, if a regular biro has issues with marking the ticket correctly.

Even worse, FCC has to know this problem, but still seems to be very aggressive about accusing people of fare evasion!

FCC have every right to pursue an aggressive revenue protection policy. Too many people "forget" to fill their boxes in. Every time they do this, they get free travel and the TOC loses money. Despite what you may believe, the TOCs do not entrap people. Forgetful types should use different ticket types if they know they cannot fulfill such a basic responsibilities. I'm sure those who misuse boxed tickets are in the minority.

I made heavy use of boxed tickets for quite some time and never once forgot to fill in the boxes. I also always used a biro and the problem is not half as bad as people make out. As such, I have no sympathy for anyone who is prosecuted for forgetting to fill in a box. I also question how many people on this forum have first hand experience of being MG11'd or Penalty Fared after struggling to, but eventually getting some sort of legible figures in after a pen failure. Suspect it's close to zero!

 

[12CSVT]

Despite what you may believe, the TOCs do not entrap people.

.........except for Northern. There have been numerous threads in this section of the Forum which suggest this does happen in the Manchester area from time to time.

 

[reb0118]

Pragmatic solutions should always prevail over pathetic excuses for not having a clearly filled in box when the ticket inspector requests to see it.

Can I quote that!

Flexi passes are not for everyone. I normally just fill in the boxes with three crosses thus "xxx" for any undated ones I'm shown. However when I was told by a passenger that "I don't do pens" in response to a query over an undated flexi pass I was flabbergasted - a new SDS was requested for the journey - & after much grumbling it was paid for. It seems to be that flexi pass holders up here get off lightly compared to their cousins who have infractions onboard FCC services.

If you are unable to write the date correctly maybe you should not be out on your own let alone using flexi-passes. (Notwithstanding the fact that they are a bugger to fill in!)

 

[Ferret]

[Mod Note - Split from this thread.]

I'm not keen on these carnet tickets. Wide open to fraud on one side, and wide open to problems, maybe caused by something as daft as bad handwriting!

So then 'Zee', am I to take it that the inspector withdrew your ticket and kept hold of it? If so, that will be central to any case they may decide to bring against you. If it was clearly dated with the correct date, then I can't see how they could bring a fare evasion case to Court. If it wasn't clearly dated, then it's probably a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution.

Regarding settling out of Court - see my post earlier. There's a previous thread where the original poster was unable to settle, as FCC wouldn't let him! It's at their discretion as to whether they settle or not, and if they have a watertight case, then they may choose not to. Why do you want to settle though - if you held a valid ticket?! If that was me, I'd be fighting tooth and nail.

 

[Zeeshm]

My carnet tickets are peak carpets I use for both travelling too and from work.

I don't understand why the barriers just don't stamp the tickets

 

[Clip]

If there are that many carnet users perhaps but I've used validators abroad and there's often one per platform and that's with almost everyone needing to use them.

This is for people to stamp before they go through the gates (too late on the other side) but clearly at King's Cross or where there are multiple gate lines then you'd have more.

I can't see FCC paying for loads in case a group of carnet users all turn up at once. They're only to offer a better/safer way to mark them anyway.

When I were in Athens the metro had a botu 20 validators in each station.. But I still dont think the idea of them would work over here - too much of a culture change.

 

[RJ]

.........except for Northern. There have been numerous threads in this section of the Forum which suggest this does happen in the Manchester area from time to time.

In what way out of interest? I'm not from up north, but travelled on a few of their trains on an ALR last month. I couldn't help but notice that there were notices all over the place on stations and ob trains stating that it's a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket if there was an opportunity to buy one.

 

[island]

I am only guessing that this relates to the practice of issuing vouchers at stations near urban termini in order to catch people boarding at more distant unstaffed stations and requesting a ticket for only the later part of their journey.

 

[RJ]

That is not entrapment. The passengers choose to lie about where they travelled from entirely of their own volition.