Is there a minimum threshold for getting to the platform?

[Peter Mugridge]

You don't...? Oh. I thought I'd explained it adequately well.

The problem is that holding a service for a nicely woolly "enough time" (Who says when "enough time" has elapsed? How is this shown on delay attribution?) introduces delays that impact elsewhere. The railway cannot hold services indefinitely until "enough time" has passed. Passengers have to also start to understand that their own behaviour impacts on the operation of the railway. If you want a punctual service then you have to start working with us rather than against us.

O L Leigh

This may illustrate the point you are making about the spectacular damage a small initial delay can do, especially if not everyone is on the ball at the time:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=468153&highlight=Farnham#post468153

My goodness... was it really 25 years ago now?!

 

[otomous]

I suggest some of you pay attention to what O L Leigh is saying. There is a limit to how much the railway can accomodate passengers, even if they were waiting on the platform or the train was late in being advertised. Someone holding doors open thinks it's only a couple of seconds. And do you really think in DOO operation the driver knows who was on the platform when he's checking the doors?! If the train in front left a few seconds late for the same reason too, on a network that is already running at excess capacity, before you know it, you're 2 minutes late at a junction, where you either hold up another service or get held up for longer yourself. Then the passengers pull their usual stunts ie all getting out of one door because it's closest to the exit or waiting like lemons to enter through that same door even though there might be another 15 clear doors to use, so you arrive 5 minutes late. If you've got 4 minutes turnaround the return working then leaves late. Cue missing your slot at the junction and getting back even later. If the same driver has to then take that train out again, the delay is now horrendous with no chance of recovery.

And I seem to remember one of the mods suggesting not that long ago that this forum stops bashing railway staff when they try to explain why things are not always to the passenger's liking. I've had enough of it now so this is my final post and final viewing of this forum.

 

[Tibbs]

OL Leigh, we're not talking about late people. We're talking about people who turn up to the station on time but because they aren't informed of the platform can't walk fast enough to make it to the train on time.

What's your view on that scenario?

Thinking about this, I think that once the platform is called at Euston there must be given enough time for that annoying beeping truck to get from the concourse to the train. If you can't walk faster than that you should be on it, so it's a good base to work from.

The issue with holding trains is that the impact isn't the passengers' problem. However thanks to legislation like the Equality Act, getting people on the train is the TOC's problem. If the attitude is 'should have walked faster' then the various Age & Disability Rights charities would be able to sue for so much money that they could put every person in a sedan chair and have them carried by 4 burley men (or women, I don't discriminate) to the platform in good time!

 

[LE Greys]

We're also dancing around what causes this at Euston, the VHF timetable. By limiting dwell times at Euston, a late-running arrival can cause nightmares turning it round in time for the outgoing service. Really, to board an entire 11-car Pendy, you need at least ten minutes from announcement to departure. Allow the usual 10 minute PPM recovery time, and there is a problem. Can you really hoover the floors and seats, clean the lavs, top off all the tanks, get all the bins emptied, re-stock the buffet and everything in a mere ten minutes? However, it's unsolvable without extending dwell times, and that would mean having to order more sets.

 

[Starmill]

I would like to make it abundantly clear that bashing/blaming any railway staff was never my intention, and would like to apologise sincerely for any offence caused.

Except those G4S gits contracted by Northern. I frequently bash and blame those for everything I can.


Additionally, I'm totally unfamiliar with DOO. I only found out what it stood for last week and still have no real idea how it works.

 

[Deerfold]

I suggest some of you pay attention to what O L Leigh is saying. There is a limit to how much the railway can accomodate passengers, even if they were waiting on the platform or the train was late in being advertised. Someone holding doors open thinks it's only a couple of seconds. And do you really think in DOO operation the driver knows who was on the platform when he's checking the doors?! If the train in front left a few seconds late for the same reason too, on a network that is already running at excess capacity, before you know it, you're 2 minutes late at a junction, where you either hold up another service or get held up for longer yourself. Then the passengers pull their usual stunts ie all getting out of one door because it's closest to the exit or waiting like lemons to enter through that same door even though there might be another 15 clear doors to use, so you arrive 5 minutes late. If you've got 4 minutes turnaround the return working then leaves late. Cue missing your slot at the junction and getting back even later. If the same driver has to then take that train out again, the delay is now horrendous with no chance of recovery.

And I seem to remember one of the mods suggesting not that long ago that this forum stops bashing railway staff when they try to explain why things are not always to the passenger's liking. I've had enough of it now so this is my final post and final viewing of this forum.

The problem is if a significant number of passengers who were at a station in good time miss the train due to a late announcement, then for those passengers there might as well have not ben a train. I've been at Euston waiting for a severely delayed service and seen several VHF services in a row announced with very short notice - it's possible that a slow passenger may have missed more than one of them - and they may not have considered themselves slow enough to have requested assistance in advance.

Unfortunately there is no easy answer. What does seem odd though is that the platform number is often available several minutes in advance from the national rail web/mobile site - which means the regulars (certainly on my regular EC train from KGX) are all waiting - either by the side of the train or at the bottom of the platform whilst those who travel less frequently and are likely to be slower are stood waiting by the departure boards. In fact when I've been in a rush I've checked my phone as I'm on the bus to the station and only realised it's late running and hasn't been announced when I've got to the platform...

And then when the train is announced you find you're struggling past various cleaners (and trollies) coming the other way who have another train to go and get ready (so I can understand they're in a rush too).

 

[noddingdonkey]

Just an observation - National Rail states a minimum connection time of 15 minutes at Euston. This is, presumably, the length of time the railway believes is the minimum one should allow to get from one part of the station to another.

Should they not, therefore, be allowing a minimum of this period between announcing platform numbers and closing the doors on the train?

 

[Aictos]

One thing that ****es me off is the fact passengers do like to walk past perfectly usable doors just to use a specific set of doors.

One time a passenger walked by 10 sets of doors and as they got to door set number 12, the doors closed on them and the train left on time.

Why didn't you let me get on I was asked, umm didn't you noticed the 10 sets of doors you just walked past :roll:

 

[Bushy]

I was at Chesterfield one afternoon this week, boarding a late running EM to St. Pancras. A member of platform staff assisting a mobility impaired passenger (or whatever they are call these days) was locked on the train, in the rush to get the train away. Fortunately the dispatcher realised before the train left.

One thing that doesn't help dwell time on busy, through, urban and metro services is that passengers on the platform crowd in front of the doors and even squeeze on past alighting passengers.

Regards

Bushy